DPP: Vent at Joe's Bar

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Hey, I know I said I was going to post a two day thing? Eh... I changed my mind! :D I'm not sure if we've done this one before but I figured I'm going to go for it anyways. Tomorrow's post is going to come a little bit late in the day and I might do the two-day challenge then, because it's a little involved and takes a bit more time.

Anyways, what are we venting at Joe's about? 

Unpopular Pilots (and other Fandom) Opinions.

I thought some of these might be coming up since we've been thinking so much about the scenes and the voting. Ever feel alone in what you think? Are you afraid to speak your mind sometimes because the other shippers don't agree with your opinion? Well pull up a barstool, get a drink, and spill it. Bartenders are, of course, the everyman's therapist.

Comments

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll put my money where my mouth is and go first. I know I've talked to a few people about this, but I'll post it here.

I was never angry with Lee for choosing Dee in TaBFAYW... writers? yes. Lee? No. Because I could understand why he'd choose to. He already has abandonment issues, and Kara's left him once already. She was dead set on staying in her marriage (religiously, you could say) and so he deals with it, starts to move on and she pulls a 180. She was so rooted in her faith and her belief that her marriage was a sacrament. And she was going to leave Sam after all that? How could he trust that it wouldn't happen again. He was just trying to protect himself. We as fans know how Kara felt... but Lee didn't... and if I were him... I would've done the same thing.

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on that, actually. It disappoints me as a shipper who always wants them to finally get their shit together, but I get it.

[innibis.livejournal.com]

You know I agree with you. As a shipper, I wish it hadn't played out like that. As a human being, I completely understand.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I'm with you, too. I feel like the episode itself was a bit muddled and the key scenes for that storyline were cut down so far as to be rather baffling, but yes, I instinctively understood where Lee was coming from there. I think your presentation of his motivations is right on the money.

I will also say - I'm not sure if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but I suspect it is - that I was kind of proud of him for trying to save his marriage. I think he married for terrible reasons, and I think his relationship with Dee had even more problems than Kara's relationship with Sam, but at the end of the day I think marriage is a serious thing and I like to see it being treated as emotionally and ethically important, not something that's it's easy or simple to end. And if it has to be ended, I think it needs to be dealt with honestly - cheating bugs me more than divorce because it seems more disrespectful, more selfish. It's all about not facing things. It broke my heart that The Powers That Be put Kara and Lee in the middle of an adulterous situation, because I wanted so much for them to be together, but not like that. I hated not being able to root for them in their scenes together in Season Three, I really did. I just wish they hadn't married other people in the first place, I think that obviously reflected poorly on them as characters and it led to storylines that depressed me, personally. And if they had to marry unwisely, I wish they would have addressed those problems and fixed them rather than constantly skirting around them.

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Yeah, as sucky as it was, it made sense for his character to not trust that Kara would change her mind on him again.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Okay. I'll be brave too. I don't like the under the wing scene because it's the final nail in the coffin, as it were. I think lee follows his father's advice in saying "everybody gets rattled sometimes" - he should have listened to his own instincts and her words that she didn't trust herself to fly. I feel angry at him for it.

There is more, but I'm on a phone and it's arduous to type.

*does tequila shot*

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Huh... that's interesting... Lee's faith in her gets her killed... I never really thought about it before... you know if you look it at his feelings getting in the way of doing his job and getting Kara killed... it's sort of the flip of Kara and Zak... I don't know if you were going for that but it just made me think.

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

My unpopular opinion, hmm. I don't hate Black Market? Does that count? Because I just think that, while indeed the execution left a lot to be desired, the revelations about Lee's past and how he was dealing (or not dealing, more accurately) with them in the present was some interesting stuff. Though I do think his Kara issues should have been a focus too. Why it wasn't will always baffle me.

But I think most of you already know that about me. Maybe I'll come up with something else...

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

I agree... I actually like Black Market better than Scar to be honest.

[olaf47.livejournal.com]

I don't hate the poof.

I don't really like it, and I certainly did hate it, when I first saw it. But the further from it I get, the more I understand it.

I think the baseline of this believe comes from the fact that I think Kara can (and will) come back at any time. If she was able to hang around for so long as an "angel", who's to say she can't come back after the poof? Is that any more or less real than the time she was around after her Viper exploded?

Kara needed time to figure herself out. But if we've learned anything in the show, it's that she always comes back to Lee. Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

"Kara can (and will) come back at any time"

Yes this. Also, with the cycle of time thing that's already established... I think that Kara and Lee will see each other again, if in a different life.

Unpopular Opinions

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I'm already squirming writing this, as I've taken flak for a variety of these. So be patient. I promise I'm actually a reasonably sane person despite these opinions.

Issue 1: I actually didn't much care for Lee at the beginning of the miniseries *gasp!* Now, before I start receiving hate mail, I'd like to point out that I am now a HUGE Lee / Kara shipper, but I actually needed him to grow up a little before I could see the connection between them. (His tough guy viper pilot vibe and the pissy “oh my gods, I ACTUALLY have to do this stupid decommissioning crap” attitude from the mini really got to me.) Once he started maturing and changing – especially in regards to his relationship with Kara – I was hooked.

Issue 2: No one will admit it, but I think Sam Anders was telling Lee the truth when he said “You don’t think you’re the first, do you?” Yes, I actually believe Kara cheated, more than once, during her marriage. Few others will say it, (it’s easier to just think Sam was trying to hurt Lee) but I think that cheating is actually much more in keeping with Kara’s personality than being monogamous. This, of course, doesn’t change my opinion that she and Lee were destined for one another. It’s just another of her interesting facets.

Issue 3: I couldn’t stand Dee. I have no patience with her. I was completely unsympathetic to her suicide. *eek!* This sounds so bad, but the fact is, I found her – from the very start – to be completely manipulative and horrible. My friend Ryan (who loves her) has already told me what an awful person I am for saying all of this, but I feel like coming clean here. “My name is K and I can’t stand Dualla.”

Issue 4: I never thought Saul Tigh was a reasonable choice for a cylon. Surprising?, yes. Believable?, no. I felt like Ron and co. were out partying in Vegas when they were supposed to be writing, and discovered, come Monday, that they had miscounted, and only come up with four out of the final five. Someone, suffering a hangover, said: “Hey, who’s the least likely person on board to be a cylon.” Someone else, still drunk, said: “Saul Tigh.” And the rest was (badly written) history.

Re: Unpopular Opinions

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Issue 1: I get it. Some of us have a kink for daddy issues, but I get why you wouldn't have loved him at first sight.

Issue 2: I have to agree. Especially with how she treated Sam overall once they got off NewCap, telling him she just wanted to hurt someone and it might as well be him, the booty calls and immediately kicking him out, etc. She didn't respect what they had, no matter how religiously she held their vows.

Issue 3: My name is Amy and I also can't stand Dee. Not even with Billy in the beginning. To me, she started as the example of the young, money-for-college-in-peacetime soldier that should have stayed terciary. And don't get me started on her knowing Lee loved Kara and would one day leave her for Kara in UBEX and still marrying him. I mean, as a motivation, settling for what you can get certainly happens all the time in RL. I don't want my TV shows to try to make sympathetic characters out of the people who make do, though.

Issue 4: My first thought at the reveal was, wait? Do the Cylons age or not age? Did they make him and Cavil and Ellen old to start with? If the "final five" are a couple of thousand years old, do they age really slowly? Eenie, meenie, minie, mo! Tigh!

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Hmm. People have been kind enough to listen to my somewhat unpopular opinions before, everyone has always been so gracious, so I don't think I have many secrets left :) I made a few comments about Lee's marriage above, and I will just add that it was a relief to me when it was allowed to fail on its own merits. I'm glad that he made a serious effort to see if he could make it work, and I'm glad it didn't, and I'm glad that the reason was a genuine difference of principles rather than Kara Thrace (even though they rushed that bit of storyline just like they did every other part. Lee/Dee = bane of my existance, dramatically as well as emotionally. Sigh.)

One other unpopular opinion, about fandom rather than pilots, is that from all I've heard of him in commentaries and elsewhere, I'm actually quite fond of Ron Moore. He seems like a nice guy, and an interesting person, and someone who really cared about the work he was doing and who invited his actors and writers and directors into a collaborative environment that I'm sure made a lot of great things possible. He thought a lot about certain things, and winged his way through others, and he himself was able to admit that storylines didn't always work, which I found refreshing. I think he did a lot wrong in his storytelling - not all of which he recognized - but he also did a lot right, and at the end of the day I'm more grateful than angry. "The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones." I choose to remember the good :) I think he made a great piece of television, and the fact that it's far from perfect shouldn't invalidate the whole thing - I'm sorry that so many people dislike him so much, given how much we all love parts of his work.

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad to see someone who is not an RDM hater. IMO he made Starbuck a woman in the first place... on those grounds alone I can't hate him.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I am going to be brief because I haven't much time right now, but my unpopular opinion is that I like the flashbacks --the table scene included. Maybe the execution was not perfect, but I love the fact that those flashbacks made it clear the overwhelming and genuine attraction between these two from day one. Also, I find the whole thing... realistic? It's just so screwed up and so classically them. They're drunk, they are completely oblivious to anything and, let's face it, pilots have never been the nicest people around... So I totaly buy that they give in to their connection. Is it nice? At all. Believable? Absolutely (and what can I say? I like my characters messy ;)).

Also, in a weird way, to me the flashbacks actually showed how much pilots deserved to be happy together in the end, because even if their immediate connection to each other came out in a ugly and twisted way, those floasbacks are the proof that people learn from their mistakes and bad choices, and I like to think that both Kara and Lee did it –they grew up so much over the course of the series… What started in an almost irredeemable way ended up being something beautiful, substantial and real.

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

I liked the flashbacks too! Honestly, I was shocked by how much fandom seemed to loathe them.

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

Okay, I've got two unpopular opinions here.

1. I don't love the brig scene from Six of One. I'm not sure what it is, since I was squeeing along with everybody else when it aired. Maybe I'm bitter because I know what comes next. Or maybe it's just that I can't stand to rewatch it because I don't like the way it was shot.

2. I don't like the towel scene. I don't! I think it's silly. Who cannot hold onto a towel? Also, I don't find Jamie/Lee particularly attractive...and I prefer him with his clothes on. Whenever I watch this scene, I watch Kara to see her reaction. Because she's far more interesting to me than exhibitionist!Apollo.

[(Anonymous)]

Re 1: Me too and I can't quite say why either, but I think it's cause it's shot strangely and it marks a change in their relationship. Also to me it seems like it's not really them anymore, no their old selves anyway.

Re 2: It's because the towel's so small! how can you not find Jamie attractive! Insane!

[helikedmyshoes.livejournal.com]

I don't hate the Daybreak flashbacks. I know everyone else hates them, but I totally bought it. Kara and Lee were young, drunk, obviously attracted to each other, cocky Viper jocks who thought they were invincible. Yeah, Kara loved Zak, but she loved Sam too and she had no problem cheating on him. And Lee clearly was no saint either.

I love that they instantly had a connection and that fire between them, and they couldn't help but act on it. I have no doubt that they wouldn't have gone through with it if not for that stupid glass. I wonder how much they would have regretted it, too. We don't really know what either of them were like back then, or just how much Zak's death changed them both. All we ever saw was after, except for these brief glimpses.

It just felt like an affirmation of the years I spent watching the show. They felt it right from the start, and it never went away. AND THEY ALMOST HAD SEX ON A TABLE. And then they almost did it on a table again in Scar.

Also, this quote, that I know everyone hates:

TVGuide.com: Were the Lee, Zak and Kara flashbacks your way of telling us that Lee and Kara were wonderful, but were never meant to be together?
Moore: Yeah, I kind of felt that Kara and Lee had never really left a moment in time on the table. They were kind of trapped in that moment perpetually of wanting, longing, feeling but never being able to fully enjoy it or fully embrace it. They just really never left that place as characters.

I think this is absolutely true - up until Six of One. And that's where the writers dropped the ball, because they DID get Lee and Kara off that table. Islanded cements that. It's just a shame that they were never given their chance.

And I still don't have a table icon. Sigh.

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

I love your reasoning, and I love that you brought in that quote. I have to agree. I thought it was quite tragic, and fairly accurate to say they had been trapped in that impossible moment of perpetually wanting something they can't have. But as you said, they did get past that, they did get off the table.

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

I realized I have a third unpopular opinion, and it may be the most unpopular of them all. I don't think the pigeon metaphor is as bad as everyone makes it out to be. Now, hear me out. What it essentially says is that Kara flew into his life unexpectedly--he opens his eyes one moment and she's there--and he can neither catch her nor get rid of her. And in another moment she leaves his life the same way she entered it. And, well, that's pretty accurate.

Or more simply, Kara is and has always been beyond Lee's control. I don't think that's so bad. What I do think is bad is substituting this metaphor--which is neither very complicated nor very deep--for actual character development. You know. Kara could have chosen to stay.

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

What it essentially says is that Kara flew into his life unexpectedly--he opens his eyes one moment and she's there--and he can neither catch her nor get rid of her. And in another moment she leaves his life the same way she entered it. And, well, that's pretty accurate.

Holy frak! You made it work! Wow.

[da-angel729.livejournal.com]

I'm not a huge Kara fan. I don't hate her, and I enjoy her as a character, but honestly, I am bored by her 'featured' episodes-I almost never rewatch episodes that focus on Kara alone. I've just never really been a huge fan and while I do get why people absolutely love her, I just never was one of those people.

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

Heh, that's how I feel about Lee.

[amaliak.livejournal.com]

Agreed.

Though, while the season aired, I did feel REALLY bad for her. But as soon UBEx came out, all the sympathy went right out the window.

Also, I want to say that Dee was really mean to Lee as well. She wanted to marry the son because she's in love w/ the father. It brings to mind a whole Oedipus thing, but it's still really messed up and I'm sorry no one gave her more grief about that.

I think that in general the writers didn't know wheat to do with her character and this is where it ended it. Sad, because she had so much potential at the beginning.

cheers.
--Lex

[amaliak.livejournal.com]

Unpopular opinion:

I was very displeased with both Kara and Lee while they decided to have an affair. Yes, they're in love and meant to be together, blah blah blah. But they were married. Period. Respect for the sanctity of the oath, please. And no, not after you feel guilty about it. BEFORE.
It's not fair for anyone involved.
Also, Kara, news flash: cheating is just as much breaking the oath as divorce. Don't sugarcoat it.

*steps down from soap box*
cheers.
--Lex

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Yes. I'm completely with you on this.

OH GOD THIS MAKES ME SO NERVOUS

[coffeesuperhero.livejournal.com]

I, uh, like Sam.

Hear me out! I don't want him to end up with Kara. Kara and Lee are never going to let go of each other, and I love that about them, and I wanted them to get their happy ending with each other so much that I still get ragey thinking about that damn finale.

But... I like Sam. I wanted him to live and (assuming Earth had a civilization of people already on it) find a nice Earth girl (or guy) to settle down with or something, maybe teach people to play pyramid or something.

It's weird that I feel this way now, because I hated him so frakking much from the moment that we saw him that I actually got on IMDB to see how many eps he was in, because I was hoping he kicked it and went away. I may have thrown a shoe at the television when Helo was all, "Oh, Kara, you're so in love with this guy now, your life has changed and stuff." (That is, ah, heavily paraphrased, mind.)

So like, I totally understand the hate. I don't know what happened, or when my opinion changed. Maybe during the New Caprica/resistance arc? Idk. I think I like him because I feel like when it comes to Kara, Sam is always going to lose out to Lee. As someone who thinks that Kara and Lee are Made For Each Other, that pleases me. As someone who usually roots for (the person I perceive as) the underdog, that confounds me.

So...that's my confession. Forgive me, fellow shippers, for I like Sam. How many Hail Kara's do I have to say? ;)

Re: OH GOD THIS MAKES ME SO NERVOUS

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

Aw, girl, no need to be nervous. You are far from alone on this. I can't say I personally am a big Sam fan--though I like him more now with some perspective and think Trucco is awesomesauce--but there have been lots of Kara/Lee shippers over the years who either also ship Kara/Sam or don't mind the Kara/Sam and like him in general.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

OK since coffeesuperhero was so brave, I will out myself and say that more than once I wished that I could just ship Kara/Sam and make the pain go away. I have actually considered it - thought about it intellectually - and then felt kinda sick. :(

*steps away from the bar with hands in the air*

[da-angel729.livejournal.com]

Join the club! I felt that way, too, sometimes. Even though Sam was incredibly boring when he was this perfect jock character, IMO.

Kara/Sam seemed like such an easygoing, fun relationship (though Sasm does come across as a bit of a pushover), especially in the beginning. I know I'd love a relationship that was fun and easy.

And even when Pilots were having fun and things were going well, there was also so much stuff they weren't saying or doing that fed the tension.

[baciami2.livejournal.com]

I cring when I see Under the Wing because I hated that Lee lied. "Never happier" - oh, pulleeze. I would have bought it if Lee had told Kara he's made a commitment and he's going to work on it, but I never have believed Lee loved Dee - cared for her, perhaps loved the way she loved him, but I couldn't buy that he loved her. Come on, he proposed 5 min after he learned Kara married Sam.

Another thing I dislike about Maelstrom...Lee should have shouted out to Kara, "Come back, I love you, don't leave me." His saying, "You come back now" was so weak. Is this what you would say to the person you loved if you thought they were going to die? If Lee had told Kara he loved her right before she died, then everyone would have heard over the comms (helllo Admiral) and Dee would have left Lee for being publicly humiliated by him, rather than for his representing Gaius during the trial. Lee also could have had to resign from being CAG because it would have made even more sense that he was a "parade float for the bereaved." The plot would still work, but it would make more internal sense to me.

Maelstrom Comm Banter

[kag523.livejournal.com]

OMG what can I say except AGREED!!!

That would have made way, WAY more sense. Well put!

[amidala-thrace.livejournal.com]

I am a multishipper.

Probably everyone knows this by now, and I really don't feel all that nervous about admitting/saying it, but I thought I'd chime in anyway. ;) I ship Kara/Lee and Kara/Sam and make no apologies for so doing. I also like Sam (a lot) and I don't mind Dee. Around here that probably makes me a heretic, but I don't care - I shall wear my heretic badge with pride. :D ('Sides, in the Star Wars fandom, where I also multiship, I've been called all kinds of crazy names, including being told that I'm delusional and I should be locked up in a mental asylum. The people were totally serious, too, though I laughed - because what else can you really do? ;D Needless to say, in a fandom like that, you develop a pretty thick skin.)

I like K/L and K/S for different reasons, though some of those reasons do overlap. Kara's relationship with Sam is different from her relationship with Lee, and it brings out different qualities and attitudes in her. Seeing all sides of her (no pun intended, hehe) is interesting to me, and I do feel that she genuinely loves both men - though for perhaps dissimilar reasons. Kara/Sam feels to me like what Kara/Zak might have been had Zak lived, so it's also intriguing from that perspective. :)

[helikedmyshoes.livejournal.com]

Kara/Sam feels to me like what Kara/Zak might have been had Zak lived, so it's also intriguing from that perspective.

THIS.

It's that easy, carefree thing that she had stolen from her.

[zenzero42.livejournal.com]

1. I don't hate the poof, it broke my heart but I also loved it. I think that concluded very well Kara's journey, the journey of the hero.

2. I also loved Kara/Lee flashbacks because for me prove that Kara and Lee were meant to each other, that their love was star-crossed, that their love was epic... and of course it ended badly because that is what epic loves do.

3. I adore Adama. He is, after kara, my favourite character ever. I adore the father/daughter relationship between him and kara. I think that he loved Kara as her one daughter, even more than Lee, because Kara is like him in a lots of ways, while Lee is a very different kind of person. I think that Adama was an imperfect father but that he loved her with no limits. the point is that I love bsg characters becouse they are full of flaws (look at kara!) and I really don't get why people hate him.

3a. I love the tough scenes between Kara and Adama even more than that sweet ones because for me in the galactica-verse to hurt each others means to love each others.

4. I screamed for the joy when Dee shot herself. Really. I hated her because she wanted to steal Kara's life, trying to have the Adama men love (failing of course!).

5. I think that Caroline was a pretty good mother, not perfect but definitely not the abusive alcoholic the people seem to think. That was Socrata, a completely different order of magnitude. Lee is not an abused child at all. for me that episode was just poor writing, I also remember an interview in which Jamie said the same thing.

[da-angel729.livejournal.com]

About your #2...

I hate Adama. Hate, hate, hate. A lot of it has to do with my absolute love for Lee, and how Adama treats him (I'm not going to even pretend to be impartial) like he's not good enough. I know why he does it (because he really doesn't understand Lee and Lee can be just as awful to him-I do love their relationship) but I just hate it.

But the rest of it is because I find Adama to be an appalling military commander. He's way too close to his crew, and anytime someone disagrees with him it's a personal betrayal and he reacts accordingly. He's very selfish, and as a CO you can't be that way: you have to think of others first. Everything is "ME, ME, ME" with Adama, especially in the later seasons.

I do get why people like him (he is actually a fundamentally good person and he does have his moments where I have liked him (though those were earlier seasons) but I just can't.

I agree about your #5.

[http://users.livejournal.com/wisteria_/]

Oh, what the hell. No surprise to those who know me, but....

I didn't hate "Daybreak".

Not that I was thrilled with it, mind you. I agree with many of the detailed rants against it, and it was a massive failure in many ways (my brain refuses to acknowledge the closing montage. Ugh.) If I could redo the whole thing, I'd change 80% of it. But I didn't hate the finale, nor am I filled with bitterness. If anything, I wish I were. I've been around since early S1, and the idea that Kara and Lee would end up together and get a grand sendoff (individually and as a pairing) was always a given in my mind. But when that didn't happen, I was okay with it. I felt a sense of closure and catharsis. I wish I could be as furious as everyone else I know, but I'm not.

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Didn't we talk about this at D*C?

[lotus79.livejournal.com]

I think after all the voting and stuff my unpopular fannish opinion is that the raptor scene and UB flashbacks were the best scenes of season 3! (I guess most other peeps prefer reconciliation, whereas I love angst and tragic irony?)

[lotus79.livejournal.com]

Oh and the other unpopular opinion is that I love Dee. And I think that Lee deserves a slapping for marrying her and treating her so poorly.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I don't *love* Dee, but I don't hate her, and Lee definitely deserves a slapping for the way he treated her. Too right.