DPP: Vent at Joe's Bar

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Hey, I know I said I was going to post a two day thing? Eh... I changed my mind! :D I'm not sure if we've done this one before but I figured I'm going to go for it anyways. Tomorrow's post is going to come a little bit late in the day and I might do the two-day challenge then, because it's a little involved and takes a bit more time.

Anyways, what are we venting at Joe's about? 

Unpopular Pilots (and other Fandom) Opinions.

I thought some of these might be coming up since we've been thinking so much about the scenes and the voting. Ever feel alone in what you think? Are you afraid to speak your mind sometimes because the other shippers don't agree with your opinion? Well pull up a barstool, get a drink, and spill it. Bartenders are, of course, the everyman's therapist.

Comments

[baciami2.livejournal.com]

I cring when I see Under the Wing because I hated that Lee lied. "Never happier" - oh, pulleeze. I would have bought it if Lee had told Kara he's made a commitment and he's going to work on it, but I never have believed Lee loved Dee - cared for her, perhaps loved the way she loved him, but I couldn't buy that he loved her. Come on, he proposed 5 min after he learned Kara married Sam.

Another thing I dislike about Maelstrom...Lee should have shouted out to Kara, "Come back, I love you, don't leave me." His saying, "You come back now" was so weak. Is this what you would say to the person you loved if you thought they were going to die? If Lee had told Kara he loved her right before she died, then everyone would have heard over the comms (helllo Admiral) and Dee would have left Lee for being publicly humiliated by him, rather than for his representing Gaius during the trial. Lee also could have had to resign from being CAG because it would have made even more sense that he was a "parade float for the bereaved." The plot would still work, but it would make more internal sense to me.

Maelstrom Comm Banter

[kag523.livejournal.com]

OMG what can I say except AGREED!!!

That would have made way, WAY more sense. Well put!

Re: Maelstrom Comm Banter

[baciami2.livejournal.com]

Thank you! What an awesome compliment from such a talented writer!

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I understand your dislike for Lee's words about Dee in Maelstrom, but I interpreted them a little differently, as being a bit closer to the 'I'm making a commitment and that's making a big difference' sentiment rather than 'I'm happy and totally in love.' He doesn't say that. Kara says "How are things with you and Dee?" And Lee shrugs and can't look at her and says a bit awkwardly, "Uh, you know, good." And then he catches himself and reminds himself of how things are changing for the better - he hopes - and says more strongly, "No. Better than good. Best they've ever been."

So what he says, specifically, is not that his life is the best it's ever been. He says *things with him and Dee* are the best *they've* ever been. Remember that this is a relative scale he's using, and the initial bar was set pretty low :) I think what he's really saying is that his recommitment to her seems to be making a genuine difference, and they are happier together than they were in the earlier phases of their relationship, which to my mind seem to have been pretty drowned in trauma, apathy, and depression. I can believe he's happier with Dee than he was before. Happier than he ever was with Kara? He doesn't say that, and I wouldn't believe him if he did.

I agree that Lee talks to Kara like a pilot and a comrade more than like a lover in the final crisis. In his defense, that is how he's been trained to handle these life or death situations. He's giving her orders, trying to snap her out of what he must assume is temporary insanity. He assumes the craziness is flowing from something personal, so he tries to make her shut off the personal and respond like a soldier who's been trained to follow orders and fly her frakking plane. But it is tempting to imagine a more personal attempt to reach her. I wrote a short little story about that once. I agree that it would make good internal sense, and I also wanted that emotional outpouring from him.

[baciami2.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the articulate response! I see what you're saying, but I actually thought he and Dee were happiest in the month before he went over to the Peggy. Remember that bunkroom scene with Lee & Dee before he ships over to Pegasus to help Garner? There & at that time, they seemed happy - flirty, sexy, comforted. I understand more about what you're saying about Lee's relative scale and that's very very insightful.

I agree with you that Lee's being a soldier as he's trying to talk Kara out of the maelstrom. And it would make sense given Lee's earlier reasoning about the relative scale of his relationship with Dee vs. Kara.

RDM often manufactured drama that felt contrived to me - Shevon, Dee (helllo? Billy, anyone?), Sam - all to keep Kara and Lee apart. If Lee's extreme fear that Kara was going to die caused him to drop military protocol, as he did with the Blackbird incident when Kara disappeared, confess that he was lying earlier and he wanted her and "them" back, then that would have been an organic dramatic event in my opinion. As contrasted with some of RDM's more contrived scenario's.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Nice - I agree with you that many of the obstacles to Kara and Lee getting together (especially, in my opinion, Lee's other 'love interests') were contrived and didn't play well as organic drama. I feel like they finally started to get past that a bit in the last season, and when the writers allowed Kara and Lee to act like themselves in their scenes together they seemed to naturally drift closer and closer.

Good point, too, about Lee and Dee at the beginning of Captain's Hand - they seemed happy there, though it did feel a bit escapist, IMO, since Billy had just died and Lee was recovering from getting shot by his best friend ~ I think they both had a heck of a lot they didn't want to think about or deal with at that moment, which probably made it easier for them to get lost in each other.

They also seemed fairly happy around the time of the Exodus episodes, when Lee told her he was proud to serve with her. But again, this is in the midst of some fairly major stress and disaster, not to mention after a long bout of post-New Caprica depression. So yes, I think of the Lee/Dee happiness scale as a highly relative one :)

Thanks very much for your insights! I would have liked to see more of Lee's fear and love for Kara breaking through in Maelstrom, too. (And in the episode afterwards, for that matter). Though I will always love his, "Kara, I'm coming to get you!" and his screams after he sees her plane go up in flames. Too late to save her, but it was pretty clear what he felt for her in that moment, at least.

[baciami2.livejournal.com]

Tonight in the gym I was rewatching He That Believeth in Me. I had this thought when I saw the scene between Adama and Lee - should I believe my heart or my eyes. It finally sunk in that Lee had made that repeating loop of Kara's plane blowing up and his screams of Noooooo. OMGs, how many hours do yo think Lee spent watching that over and over.

I was just thinking I would have loved (& cried) for Kara to come upon Lee watching her plane explode (and her death... now we know) and have this catharsis with him that they weren't going to waste any more time since they'd been given a second chance.

[latteaddict.livejournal.com]

If Lee's extreme fear that Kara was going to die caused him to drop military protocol, as he did with the Blackbird incident when Kara disappeared,

Excellent catch! Lee switched from being angry at her stunt pulling to being sick with fear during the blackbird incident. He showed much more emotion, possibly too much, in that scene compared to Maelstrom's actual real danger and Kara's imminent death.

Same goes for Lee's quiet mourning after Kara died versus Lee's wet snotty bawling when he dropped his wedding ring and thought he was going to lose Dee. It's good to know what Lee's priorities are, what affects him.

RDM totally puppet strings the emotional reactions for maximum angst affect - usually to piss the audience off and make it all uncomfortable. Another example - Kara's imprisoned by Leoben for four months and the first reunion we get between Kara and papadama is him disowning her as a daughter. I'm so glad Ron skipped the Kara/papaddama angst in Maelstrom. He was going to have Bill slam Kara against a wall for disrespecting the prez.