DPP: Vent at Joe's Bar

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Hey, I know I said I was going to post a two day thing? Eh... I changed my mind! :D I'm not sure if we've done this one before but I figured I'm going to go for it anyways. Tomorrow's post is going to come a little bit late in the day and I might do the two-day challenge then, because it's a little involved and takes a bit more time.

Anyways, what are we venting at Joe's about? 

Unpopular Pilots (and other Fandom) Opinions.

I thought some of these might be coming up since we've been thinking so much about the scenes and the voting. Ever feel alone in what you think? Are you afraid to speak your mind sometimes because the other shippers don't agree with your opinion? Well pull up a barstool, get a drink, and spill it. Bartenders are, of course, the everyman's therapist.

Comments

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I am going to be brief because I haven't much time right now, but my unpopular opinion is that I like the flashbacks --the table scene included. Maybe the execution was not perfect, but I love the fact that those flashbacks made it clear the overwhelming and genuine attraction between these two from day one. Also, I find the whole thing... realistic? It's just so screwed up and so classically them. They're drunk, they are completely oblivious to anything and, let's face it, pilots have never been the nicest people around... So I totaly buy that they give in to their connection. Is it nice? At all. Believable? Absolutely (and what can I say? I like my characters messy ;)).

Also, in a weird way, to me the flashbacks actually showed how much pilots deserved to be happy together in the end, because even if their immediate connection to each other came out in a ugly and twisted way, those floasbacks are the proof that people learn from their mistakes and bad choices, and I like to think that both Kara and Lee did it –they grew up so much over the course of the series… What started in an almost irredeemable way ended up being something beautiful, substantial and real.

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

I liked the flashbacks too! Honestly, I was shocked by how much fandom seemed to loathe them.

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

For me, as bad as they had been to their spouses and everyone the rest of the show, I didn't want to see that they'd always been so selfish and tunnel-visioned about each other. I guess I wanted the end of the worlds to have ruined them, not for them to be that way all along.

(Confession re: my hating the flashback table!frak- Secretly, I wanted more than an almost kiss/table!frak in the flashbacks. Perhaps I'd have been better about the scene if it a) wasn't in the same room as Zak, and b) involved more sex. Can't leave it all to fanfiction if they are your OTP, right?)

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

Oh, I entirely understand why people don't like the flashbacks. I just don't feel the same way. I have kind of a complicated relationship with them though. Prior to Daybreak, I had never thought that Kara or Lee had cheated on Zak. I doubted that they had even kissed. But pre-mini fic was full of that, full of them having illicit affairs while she's supposed to be with his brother. Fandom had me inured to that, so when it happened I was just sort of like "well, okay." The only real difference I saw was that Zak was actually in the room in the flashbacks.

But anyway, helikedmyshoes said it better in a comment further down.

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

And I read the fanifc after, so I wasn't ready to find out they were THOSE people. I can see it now, certainly, and haven't rewatched the finale since, outside of disembodied scenes.

[olaf47.livejournal.com]

I love the way you put this, that they learned from their mistakes.

I liked the flashbacks, too, but I also sometimes like to live in denial and read/write/wonder about the possibilities if they met first or not until the funeral, etc, etc.

[helikedmyshoes.livejournal.com]

Hee! We think alike. I just posted about the flashbacks too. You know I'm with you 100%. I love the flashbacks and I don't care who knows. I don't think they are out of character at all. Kara and Lee AREN'T the nicest people. They're not. They are two frakked up people, even before Zak's death frakked them up even more. Young, hot-headed.

The set up was there too: Zak calls Lee a girlfriend stealer, and Sam had told Lee that he wasn't the first guy Kara cheated with. And the attraction between them is so obvious as soon as she opens the door, add some booze and light a match, and there's an explosion of chemistry.

And you make a great point about how they should've gotten their happy ending. I used Ron's quote about how they were never able to get off that table below, and for 3 seasons that was true, but they had their chance and the writers just let it slip away. They had finally grown up and learned from their mistakes and were just grateful that when the dust finally cleared, they were still standing next to each other. And then Kara went off on Demetrius and that was that. SIGH.

[(Anonymous)]

I think I disliked the flashbacks because premini-fanfic ruined it for me, because my expectations were too high. A lot of fanfics offer up imo more interesting and deeper scenarios as a drunken bet on a table and a metaphorical pigeon.
Secondly I would have like to see more of the brotherly connection, instead of purely focusing on their relationship with Kara. All in all I thought all the flashbacks in the finale were redundant, as we didn't need to get to know the characters anymore, I didn't need more background at that stage.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Well, much of the flashback hatred expressed in this community lately has been coming from me, and although I continue to dislike them, I'm very glad that you were able to draw a redeeming message from them. To each his own! Hurrah!

I do understand your perspective, and I think that's a nice way to think about the story they were trying to tell. I understood that the scene was designed to say something about how Kara and Lee were meant for each other from the first, always the right people at the wrong time. I really like what you say about learning from their mistakes and growing into a more mature relationship, which I think you can definitely see, especially in the last season.

But that table thing was starting just a bit *too* irredeemable for me. I didn't want their relationship to be just about attraction, I wanted it to be about love, about friendship, AND about hotness - it's not that I don't believe them capable of betraying others for the sake of being together, it's just that I'd like to think they would have to know and care about each other passionately for that to overcome their other affections and loyalties and their sense of right and wrong. That was the case by the time we arrived at the mess of Season Three quadrangling, and even then Lee couldn't live with it, and Kara meant everything to him by then. It doesn't make sense to me that they would get to that point after a few hours of booze in the apartment she shared with his brother. The whole thing moved too fast for it to be about anything but alcohol and hormones, and I don't think that realistically said much about either their love or their destiny. To me, personally, it just made them both seem like jerks, and I didn't want to watch this horrible moment right before I was losing them forever. It felt like they were ending on that note, and it's not what I wanted. I generally don't respond well on TV shows when it takes people three seconds to fall in love and forget everything else, it just rings false to me. But then again, I have defended the poof, which has no element of reality whatsoever, so I guess my reactions don't really have much consistency. My logic does not resemble our earth logic, as Buffy would say...

Thanks for giving such a lovely interpretation of a scene that has always been difficult for me, it reminds me that there are always possibilities :)

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

To me, personally, it just made them both seem like jerks, and I didn't want to watch this horrible moment right before I was losing them forever.

As I was saying, the flashbacks don’t bother me the least (I dislike the poof more ;p), but I completely get what you mean. The table is not a romantic scene, it’s very uncomfortable to watch and something difficult to process when the show was almost done… But even though I believe the whole thing could have been better handled, I dunno, I just can’t see it OOC at that point of their lives –both being self-centered and cocky viper jocks who loved playing with fire. You know, something I adore about Kara and Lee is how flawed and contradictory they were, capable of the most heroic acts and the most selfish ones --it’s kinda uncomfortable to see bits of myself in them, really--, and the table scene stands as an evidence of it.

I didn't want their relationship to be just about attraction, I wanted it to be about love, about friendship, AND about hotness

To me their relationship started being about insane attraction and immediate physical and intellectual connection and evolved to genuine friendship and love (and I truly believe that their friendship and mutual trust was the very core of their relationship). Also, as I see it, the table scene added a fascinating paradox to pilots: the thing between them started in this absolutely frakked-up way but proved to be neither lust nor infatuation, but something profound and genuine. They always felt it right --from the very first moment they met-- and that's possibly why they never stopped trying. Sniff.

(And don't even think that you are the only one that hate the flashbacks, there are a lot of fellow shippers who dislike them very much. But hey, I always enjoy reading different takes on a topic :))

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I enjoy reading different takes too, and rarely have I found one more interesting than this. You write very beautifully. I am still not reconciled, but this is making me hate the flashbacks less. Thanks so much!

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"I didn't want their relationship to be just about attraction"
I don't think the flashbacks convey this idea at all. I believe that the point they were trying to make is that they connected instantly in every way possible, including almost irrestrainable physical attraction. Now, in real life relationships I would agree with you that everything moved on too fast to be believable. But I think so because I don't quite belive in love at first sight or in true soulmates. In fact, as a principle, I'm positive it is nothing but a myth or an ilusion. Love takes time to build and grow. How can you love someone if you don't know them. Realistically speaking there can only be "attraction at first sight". Having said that, I can't help thinking that there are some very, very, very rare cases/stories that defy this belief. These stories of destined lovers whose feelings survive the most unsurmountable obstacles feed our most romantic dreams through songs, movies, books, poems. And I believe that Lee and Kara fall under this category. And I think the show tried to convey this. Their love is not ordinary. They were destined to find each other and go on their journey together. They constantly repeated that everything there was, will be again. Applying that to their relationship, they had met before and they will meet again. So, I can't see them as jerks for ALMOST (and that is an important word here) giving in to their feelings (not only their attraction) because I interpreted the easy way in which they opened up to each other the first time they met as a sign that it wasn't really the first time they were meeting each other. It was more of a recognition of souls that had know each other for a long time. Of course, this wouln't happen in any conscious way. So, they were able to tald to each other as if they were old buddies (which probably surprised both of them) but they had to be DRUNK to throw every conscious thought to the winds and behave in the most uncharacteristical way they could have possibly done in normal circumstances. I'm glad they stopped, though, because if they hadn't they wouldn't have been able to live with themselves once conscious behavior returned.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I really like this interpretation of the flashbacks, especially the way it incorporates the idea of cycles to explain what I found the most unbelievable aspect of the scenes - that they instantly knew each other and forgot everything else around them. To me that seemed unrealistic and out of character, and as you say in some ways it is, but actually the mythic construction of the BSG universe in its repetition of familiar souls/stories goes a long way toward justifying it ~ and in fact makes it a better match with the explicitly mythic and supernatural end to their story that it is tied to in the episode. I mentioned to cosettefraud that when I thought about it, my willingness to accept the poof ultimately undermined my "realism" complaints about the flashbacks. I guess I should try to think of them both mythically. But, like you, I'm very glad that in the table scene they stopped before they got to the point where they couldn't live with themselves afterwards.

Thanks for your comment, it's definitely put these flashback stories in a new perspective for me. I'm not entirely reconciled, but this interpretation does seem more satisfying than my previous thoughts on them.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

These stories of destined lovers whose feelings survive the most unsurmountable obstacles feed our most romantic dreams through songs, movies, books, poems. And I believe that Lee and Kara fall under this category. And I think the show tried to convey this. Their love is not ordinary. They were destined to find each other and go on their journey together. They constantly repeated that everything there was, will be again. Applying that to their relationship, they had met before and they will meet again

It's funny because I don't even believe in love at first sight, either --although I do believe in insta-connection or "attraction at first sight" (I've been there!)-- but... yeah, all this. As corny as it might sound, I truly believe they were destined :)

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I agree with 100%. I think the near frak on the table is what people have more trouble coming to terms with but you summed up the situation perfectly:"They're DRUNK, they are completely OBLIVIOUS to anything and, let's face it, pilots have never been the nicest people around...' Now, having said that, do I think the table part of the scene was necessary to convey that message? Not really. Would I have been happy without it? Absolutely. Do I think less of them because of it? Definetely not.

[latteaddict.livejournal.com]

I rather enjoy the flashbacks too especially the moment they first clap eyes on each other, but I hate, hate, hate the pigeon metaphor that goes along with it. And while I love how close and sexy Kara and Lee were drunk talking and all that serious dirty eye frakking, I really feel betrayed (by the writers) by how Kara's greatest fear is supposedly being forgotten. Where in four seasons did we ever get a hint of that? And I hate it doubly so because Ron admitted he put that in because it was his personal fear. I also hate that Kara and Lee kiss and we don't get to see it. That whole entire finale scene starting from Kara following Lee out of the tent and them mixed with the flashbacks was one giant cock tease. Argh! The finale is just so frustrating.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I hate, hate, hate the pigeon metaphor that goes along with it.

I forgot to mention it, but the only bit I don't like from the flashbacks is the pigeon metaphor... It's not that I hate the metaphor per se --it could be fitting to describe Lee's relationship with Kara--, but I hate that it's placed just before the poof.

I also hate that Kara and Lee kiss and we don't get to see it.

I couldn't agree more ;p

As for the "not being forgotten" line... Well, as I see it Kara was always afraid of real happiness and true love, but I wouldn't say it was OOC for her to say so. Maybe it was sorta contrived, but I can buy it ("Scar" deals with that issue a little bit, as I see it). But OOC or not OOC, I think I kind of love the moment. I read it as a love scene… and the way JB and KS play it –especially how they look at each other– kills me. Also, the confession was something monumental for someone as private as Kara, and the fact that she decided to share her secret with Lee... that's so very telling of the depth of their connection. I dunno, I am much more ambivalent towards the near frak, but that "not being forgotten" moment, I like it.

[latteaddict.livejournal.com]

The scene in itself is very intimate and beautiful, I agree, but I would've loved it better if her fear had been say...the ones I love leaving me. Or something similar.

Kara was always doing the leaving first in her relationships - she left her dying mother, she left Lee, she even left Sam for a while. And it could all be tied back to her father abandoning her. We all found out just how hurt and betrayed she was by that. I just think that whatever Kara ran away from the most would be her biggest fear. Her being forgotten just never seemed one of them. Ron's fear is not the worst fear, but I think he could've written a better one for Kara.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I know it is a bit of a strech but we don't need to interpret her words in such a literal way. Perhaps she was afraid of being forgotten by the people she loved. If someone loves you and goes away, simply leaving you behind, it is a sign you were not as important to them as they were to you since they are able to forget all about you. In that sense, when she takes the initiative of leaving others and forgetting about them, it is likely to hurt less because you are in control of the situation whereas if you are the one left/forgotten it makes you weak. When Kara adopted the Starbuck persona, she became powerful, and often arrogant in her confidence in her abilities. As Starbuck, she wants to be remembered (Scar does deal with this, as cosetteferaud mentioned). Starbuck's agressive, cocky attitude is a front she uses to hide the much more fragile, insecure Kara. While Starbuck doesn't want to be forgotten professionaly, Kara wouldn't want to be forgotten in a personal level. When she revealed her deepest fear to Lee it is possible that she was being totally honest with him, perhaps more than she herself realized.
I don't know if all this makes a lot of sense. I had never really thought about it before because that line never really bothered me at all.

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

THIS. I completely agree.

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on the fear part. We know almost nothing of then-Kara, so maybe that was her greatest fear then. I, too, focus more on the fact that she's telling him what her greatest fear is, more than what it is and how I feel about it in context with series Kara.

[somethingusual.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I really liked the flashbacks. Mostly because of the instant connection bit. And the fact that they didn't actually have table sex when they realised what was happening, even though they were obviously meant to be together.

[ask74.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with you on this!