DPP: Vent at Joe's Bar

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Hey, I know I said I was going to post a two day thing? Eh... I changed my mind! :D I'm not sure if we've done this one before but I figured I'm going to go for it anyways. Tomorrow's post is going to come a little bit late in the day and I might do the two-day challenge then, because it's a little involved and takes a bit more time.

Anyways, what are we venting at Joe's about? 

Unpopular Pilots (and other Fandom) Opinions.

I thought some of these might be coming up since we've been thinking so much about the scenes and the voting. Ever feel alone in what you think? Are you afraid to speak your mind sometimes because the other shippers don't agree with your opinion? Well pull up a barstool, get a drink, and spill it. Bartenders are, of course, the everyman's therapist.

Comments

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll put my money where my mouth is and go first. I know I've talked to a few people about this, but I'll post it here.

I was never angry with Lee for choosing Dee in TaBFAYW... writers? yes. Lee? No. Because I could understand why he'd choose to. He already has abandonment issues, and Kara's left him once already. She was dead set on staying in her marriage (religiously, you could say) and so he deals with it, starts to move on and she pulls a 180. She was so rooted in her faith and her belief that her marriage was a sacrament. And she was going to leave Sam after all that? How could he trust that it wouldn't happen again. He was just trying to protect himself. We as fans know how Kara felt... but Lee didn't... and if I were him... I would've done the same thing.

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on that, actually. It disappoints me as a shipper who always wants them to finally get their shit together, but I get it.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Okay. I'll be brave too. I don't like the under the wing scene because it's the final nail in the coffin, as it were. I think lee follows his father's advice in saying "everybody gets rattled sometimes" - he should have listened to his own instincts and her words that she didn't trust herself to fly. I feel angry at him for it.

There is more, but I'm on a phone and it's arduous to type.

*does tequila shot*

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Huh... that's interesting... Lee's faith in her gets her killed... I never really thought about it before... you know if you look it at his feelings getting in the way of doing his job and getting Kara killed... it's sort of the flip of Kara and Zak... I don't know if you were going for that but it just made me think.

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

My unpopular opinion, hmm. I don't hate Black Market? Does that count? Because I just think that, while indeed the execution left a lot to be desired, the revelations about Lee's past and how he was dealing (or not dealing, more accurately) with them in the present was some interesting stuff. Though I do think his Kara issues should have been a focus too. Why it wasn't will always baffle me.

But I think most of you already know that about me. Maybe I'll come up with something else...

[olaf47.livejournal.com]

I don't hate the poof.

I don't really like it, and I certainly did hate it, when I first saw it. But the further from it I get, the more I understand it.

I think the baseline of this believe comes from the fact that I think Kara can (and will) come back at any time. If she was able to hang around for so long as an "angel", who's to say she can't come back after the poof? Is that any more or less real than the time she was around after her Viper exploded?

Kara needed time to figure herself out. But if we've learned anything in the show, it's that she always comes back to Lee. Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

I agree... I actually like Black Market better than Scar to be honest.

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

"Kara can (and will) come back at any time"

Yes this. Also, with the cycle of time thing that's already established... I think that Kara and Lee will see each other again, if in a different life.

[innibis.livejournal.com]

You know I agree with you. As a shipper, I wish it hadn't played out like that. As a human being, I completely understand.

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Also as a tv show it was senseless drama... you can't bring up the question of "should we leave our spouses after having an affair" just to have nothing really change by the end... it's... kinda more of the "let's piss off the shippers" thing that was going on... it was just bad writing.

But as far as human feelings and emotions... I think Lee made a fair call. :( I feel bad for him too, to even have to be in that position anyway.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I'm with you, too. I feel like the episode itself was a bit muddled and the key scenes for that storyline were cut down so far as to be rather baffling, but yes, I instinctively understood where Lee was coming from there. I think your presentation of his motivations is right on the money.

I will also say - I'm not sure if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but I suspect it is - that I was kind of proud of him for trying to save his marriage. I think he married for terrible reasons, and I think his relationship with Dee had even more problems than Kara's relationship with Sam, but at the end of the day I think marriage is a serious thing and I like to see it being treated as emotionally and ethically important, not something that's it's easy or simple to end. And if it has to be ended, I think it needs to be dealt with honestly - cheating bugs me more than divorce because it seems more disrespectful, more selfish. It's all about not facing things. It broke my heart that The Powers That Be put Kara and Lee in the middle of an adulterous situation, because I wanted so much for them to be together, but not like that. I hated not being able to root for them in their scenes together in Season Three, I really did. I just wish they hadn't married other people in the first place, I think that obviously reflected poorly on them as characters and it led to storylines that depressed me, personally. And if they had to marry unwisely, I wish they would have addressed those problems and fixed them rather than constantly skirting around them.

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

"I just wish they hadn't married other people in the first place"

I agree... it was unnecessary drama...

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Yeah, as sucky as it was, it made sense for his character to not trust that Kara would change her mind on him again.

Unpopular Opinions

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I'm already squirming writing this, as I've taken flak for a variety of these. So be patient. I promise I'm actually a reasonably sane person despite these opinions.

Issue 1: I actually didn't much care for Lee at the beginning of the miniseries *gasp!* Now, before I start receiving hate mail, I'd like to point out that I am now a HUGE Lee / Kara shipper, but I actually needed him to grow up a little before I could see the connection between them. (His tough guy viper pilot vibe and the pissy “oh my gods, I ACTUALLY have to do this stupid decommissioning crap” attitude from the mini really got to me.) Once he started maturing and changing – especially in regards to his relationship with Kara – I was hooked.

Issue 2: No one will admit it, but I think Sam Anders was telling Lee the truth when he said “You don’t think you’re the first, do you?” Yes, I actually believe Kara cheated, more than once, during her marriage. Few others will say it, (it’s easier to just think Sam was trying to hurt Lee) but I think that cheating is actually much more in keeping with Kara’s personality than being monogamous. This, of course, doesn’t change my opinion that she and Lee were destined for one another. It’s just another of her interesting facets.

Issue 3: I couldn’t stand Dee. I have no patience with her. I was completely unsympathetic to her suicide. *eek!* This sounds so bad, but the fact is, I found her – from the very start – to be completely manipulative and horrible. My friend Ryan (who loves her) has already told me what an awful person I am for saying all of this, but I feel like coming clean here. “My name is K and I can’t stand Dualla.”

Issue 4: I never thought Saul Tigh was a reasonable choice for a cylon. Surprising?, yes. Believable?, no. I felt like Ron and co. were out partying in Vegas when they were supposed to be writing, and discovered, come Monday, that they had miscounted, and only come up with four out of the final five. Someone, suffering a hangover, said: “Hey, who’s the least likely person on board to be a cylon.” Someone else, still drunk, said: “Saul Tigh.” And the rest was (badly written) history.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I actually didn't hate Black Market either. Hmm... interesting to hear I'm not the only one!

[kag523.livejournal.com]

"who's to say she can't come back after the poof? Is that any more or less real than the time she was around after her Viper exploded?"

Love that idea! It makes me want to go write some fanfic (when I should really be doing work.) Nice way of putting it. :>)

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Someone mentioned a point about the under the wing scene this week that I hadn't thought of (I'm supposed to be working, so I can't check who) noting how it was a parallel to Kara passing Zak. Lee goes against her judgement that she's unfit and somehow thinks he can keep her safe in separate ships.

(Oh, sweet irony! I voted to keep that scene!)

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I feel like this scene is pretty much EXACTLY the same as what Kara does to Zak... sends him off to fly when he shouldn't actually be there. I was hoping the writers would do more with this idea than they did.

Great comment!

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Hmm. People have been kind enough to listen to my somewhat unpopular opinions before, everyone has always been so gracious, so I don't think I have many secrets left :) I made a few comments about Lee's marriage above, and I will just add that it was a relief to me when it was allowed to fail on its own merits. I'm glad that he made a serious effort to see if he could make it work, and I'm glad it didn't, and I'm glad that the reason was a genuine difference of principles rather than Kara Thrace (even though they rushed that bit of storyline just like they did every other part. Lee/Dee = bane of my existance, dramatically as well as emotionally. Sigh.)

One other unpopular opinion, about fandom rather than pilots, is that from all I've heard of him in commentaries and elsewhere, I'm actually quite fond of Ron Moore. He seems like a nice guy, and an interesting person, and someone who really cared about the work he was doing and who invited his actors and writers and directors into a collaborative environment that I'm sure made a lot of great things possible. He thought a lot about certain things, and winged his way through others, and he himself was able to admit that storylines didn't always work, which I found refreshing. I think he did a lot wrong in his storytelling - not all of which he recognized - but he also did a lot right, and at the end of the day I'm more grateful than angry. "The evil that men do lives after them, the good is oft interred with their bones." I choose to remember the good :) I think he made a great piece of television, and the fact that it's far from perfect shouldn't invalidate the whole thing - I'm sorry that so many people dislike him so much, given how much we all love parts of his work.

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad to see someone who is not an RDM hater. IMO he made Starbuck a woman in the first place... on those grounds alone I can't hate him.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I hadn't made the zak connection, but that makes for an interesting parallel. I also think the scene is incredibly sad. She says I guess that's all we'll ever be and I just want to scream. Cause that's it for them. They don't really ever get another chance on the show. There's such a sadness and finality to her statement "I guess that's all we'll ever be" that also makes me think it was easier for her to go into the maelstrom. It might be my shippyness coming through, but it's like she's got nothing at the end of that scene. At least a little - as a theory it doesn't quite hold up, but it has been dancing around in my brain for a while.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

"I choose to remember the good :) I think he made a great piece of television, and the fact that it's far from perfect shouldn't invalidate the whole thing - I'm sorry that so many people dislike him so much, given how much we all love parts of his work."

I have the utmost respect for Ron Moore - for all the reasons you are saying. I also think it is naive of us to assume that ever written word came directly from him. Some of the parts were ad libbed, so were put together by teams of writers, and some of it was his pure vision.

It all wraps up into a perfect package that is BSG, and THAT is why we all love it.

Great comment Rachel!

Re: Unpopular Opinions

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Issue 1: I get it. Some of us have a kink for daddy issues, but I get why you wouldn't have loved him at first sight.

Issue 2: I have to agree. Especially with how she treated Sam overall once they got off NewCap, telling him she just wanted to hurt someone and it might as well be him, the booty calls and immediately kicking him out, etc. She didn't respect what they had, no matter how religiously she held their vows.

Issue 3: My name is Amy and I also can't stand Dee. Not even with Billy in the beginning. To me, she started as the example of the young, money-for-college-in-peacetime soldier that should have stayed terciary. And don't get me started on her knowing Lee loved Kara and would one day leave her for Kara in UBEX and still marrying him. I mean, as a motivation, settling for what you can get certainly happens all the time in RL. I don't want my TV shows to try to make sympathetic characters out of the people who make do, though.

Issue 4: My first thought at the reveal was, wait? Do the Cylons age or not age? Did they make him and Cavil and Ellen old to start with? If the "final five" are a couple of thousand years old, do they age really slowly? Eenie, meenie, minie, mo! Tigh!

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I am going to be brief because I haven't much time right now, but my unpopular opinion is that I like the flashbacks --the table scene included. Maybe the execution was not perfect, but I love the fact that those flashbacks made it clear the overwhelming and genuine attraction between these two from day one. Also, I find the whole thing... realistic? It's just so screwed up and so classically them. They're drunk, they are completely oblivious to anything and, let's face it, pilots have never been the nicest people around... So I totaly buy that they give in to their connection. Is it nice? At all. Believable? Absolutely (and what can I say? I like my characters messy ;)).

Also, in a weird way, to me the flashbacks actually showed how much pilots deserved to be happy together in the end, because even if their immediate connection to each other came out in a ugly and twisted way, those floasbacks are the proof that people learn from their mistakes and bad choices, and I like to think that both Kara and Lee did it –they grew up so much over the course of the series… What started in an almost irredeemable way ended up being something beautiful, substantial and real.

Re: Unpopular Opinions

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

I don't think any of us were really supposed to like Lee in the mini. Actually I started with 33 so when I went back and saw the mini (I was already in s4.5 by then) I was like "who is this whiny asshole and where's my baby?"