DPP: Vent at Joe's Bar

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Hey, I know I said I was going to post a two day thing? Eh... I changed my mind! :D I'm not sure if we've done this one before but I figured I'm going to go for it anyways. Tomorrow's post is going to come a little bit late in the day and I might do the two-day challenge then, because it's a little involved and takes a bit more time.

Anyways, what are we venting at Joe's about? 

Unpopular Pilots (and other Fandom) Opinions.

I thought some of these might be coming up since we've been thinking so much about the scenes and the voting. Ever feel alone in what you think? Are you afraid to speak your mind sometimes because the other shippers don't agree with your opinion? Well pull up a barstool, get a drink, and spill it. Bartenders are, of course, the everyman's therapist.

Comments

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Well, much of the flashback hatred expressed in this community lately has been coming from me, and although I continue to dislike them, I'm very glad that you were able to draw a redeeming message from them. To each his own! Hurrah!

I do understand your perspective, and I think that's a nice way to think about the story they were trying to tell. I understood that the scene was designed to say something about how Kara and Lee were meant for each other from the first, always the right people at the wrong time. I really like what you say about learning from their mistakes and growing into a more mature relationship, which I think you can definitely see, especially in the last season.

But that table thing was starting just a bit *too* irredeemable for me. I didn't want their relationship to be just about attraction, I wanted it to be about love, about friendship, AND about hotness - it's not that I don't believe them capable of betraying others for the sake of being together, it's just that I'd like to think they would have to know and care about each other passionately for that to overcome their other affections and loyalties and their sense of right and wrong. That was the case by the time we arrived at the mess of Season Three quadrangling, and even then Lee couldn't live with it, and Kara meant everything to him by then. It doesn't make sense to me that they would get to that point after a few hours of booze in the apartment she shared with his brother. The whole thing moved too fast for it to be about anything but alcohol and hormones, and I don't think that realistically said much about either their love or their destiny. To me, personally, it just made them both seem like jerks, and I didn't want to watch this horrible moment right before I was losing them forever. It felt like they were ending on that note, and it's not what I wanted. I generally don't respond well on TV shows when it takes people three seconds to fall in love and forget everything else, it just rings false to me. But then again, I have defended the poof, which has no element of reality whatsoever, so I guess my reactions don't really have much consistency. My logic does not resemble our earth logic, as Buffy would say...

Thanks for giving such a lovely interpretation of a scene that has always been difficult for me, it reminds me that there are always possibilities :)

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

To me, personally, it just made them both seem like jerks, and I didn't want to watch this horrible moment right before I was losing them forever.

As I was saying, the flashbacks don’t bother me the least (I dislike the poof more ;p), but I completely get what you mean. The table is not a romantic scene, it’s very uncomfortable to watch and something difficult to process when the show was almost done… But even though I believe the whole thing could have been better handled, I dunno, I just can’t see it OOC at that point of their lives –both being self-centered and cocky viper jocks who loved playing with fire. You know, something I adore about Kara and Lee is how flawed and contradictory they were, capable of the most heroic acts and the most selfish ones --it’s kinda uncomfortable to see bits of myself in them, really--, and the table scene stands as an evidence of it.

I didn't want their relationship to be just about attraction, I wanted it to be about love, about friendship, AND about hotness

To me their relationship started being about insane attraction and immediate physical and intellectual connection and evolved to genuine friendship and love (and I truly believe that their friendship and mutual trust was the very core of their relationship). Also, as I see it, the table scene added a fascinating paradox to pilots: the thing between them started in this absolutely frakked-up way but proved to be neither lust nor infatuation, but something profound and genuine. They always felt it right --from the very first moment they met-- and that's possibly why they never stopped trying. Sniff.

(And don't even think that you are the only one that hate the flashbacks, there are a lot of fellow shippers who dislike them very much. But hey, I always enjoy reading different takes on a topic :))

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I enjoy reading different takes too, and rarely have I found one more interesting than this. You write very beautifully. I am still not reconciled, but this is making me hate the flashbacks less. Thanks so much!

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"I didn't want their relationship to be just about attraction"
I don't think the flashbacks convey this idea at all. I believe that the point they were trying to make is that they connected instantly in every way possible, including almost irrestrainable physical attraction. Now, in real life relationships I would agree with you that everything moved on too fast to be believable. But I think so because I don't quite belive in love at first sight or in true soulmates. In fact, as a principle, I'm positive it is nothing but a myth or an ilusion. Love takes time to build and grow. How can you love someone if you don't know them. Realistically speaking there can only be "attraction at first sight". Having said that, I can't help thinking that there are some very, very, very rare cases/stories that defy this belief. These stories of destined lovers whose feelings survive the most unsurmountable obstacles feed our most romantic dreams through songs, movies, books, poems. And I believe that Lee and Kara fall under this category. And I think the show tried to convey this. Their love is not ordinary. They were destined to find each other and go on their journey together. They constantly repeated that everything there was, will be again. Applying that to their relationship, they had met before and they will meet again. So, I can't see them as jerks for ALMOST (and that is an important word here) giving in to their feelings (not only their attraction) because I interpreted the easy way in which they opened up to each other the first time they met as a sign that it wasn't really the first time they were meeting each other. It was more of a recognition of souls that had know each other for a long time. Of course, this wouln't happen in any conscious way. So, they were able to tald to each other as if they were old buddies (which probably surprised both of them) but they had to be DRUNK to throw every conscious thought to the winds and behave in the most uncharacteristical way they could have possibly done in normal circumstances. I'm glad they stopped, though, because if they hadn't they wouldn't have been able to live with themselves once conscious behavior returned.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I really like this interpretation of the flashbacks, especially the way it incorporates the idea of cycles to explain what I found the most unbelievable aspect of the scenes - that they instantly knew each other and forgot everything else around them. To me that seemed unrealistic and out of character, and as you say in some ways it is, but actually the mythic construction of the BSG universe in its repetition of familiar souls/stories goes a long way toward justifying it ~ and in fact makes it a better match with the explicitly mythic and supernatural end to their story that it is tied to in the episode. I mentioned to cosettefraud that when I thought about it, my willingness to accept the poof ultimately undermined my "realism" complaints about the flashbacks. I guess I should try to think of them both mythically. But, like you, I'm very glad that in the table scene they stopped before they got to the point where they couldn't live with themselves afterwards.

Thanks for your comment, it's definitely put these flashback stories in a new perspective for me. I'm not entirely reconciled, but this interpretation does seem more satisfying than my previous thoughts on them.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

These stories of destined lovers whose feelings survive the most unsurmountable obstacles feed our most romantic dreams through songs, movies, books, poems. And I believe that Lee and Kara fall under this category. And I think the show tried to convey this. Their love is not ordinary. They were destined to find each other and go on their journey together. They constantly repeated that everything there was, will be again. Applying that to their relationship, they had met before and they will meet again

It's funny because I don't even believe in love at first sight, either --although I do believe in insta-connection or "attraction at first sight" (I've been there!)-- but... yeah, all this. As corny as it might sound, I truly believe they were destined :)