DPP: Vent at Joe's Bar

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Hey, I know I said I was going to post a two day thing? Eh... I changed my mind! :D I'm not sure if we've done this one before but I figured I'm going to go for it anyways. Tomorrow's post is going to come a little bit late in the day and I might do the two-day challenge then, because it's a little involved and takes a bit more time.

Anyways, what are we venting at Joe's about? 

Unpopular Pilots (and other Fandom) Opinions.

I thought some of these might be coming up since we've been thinking so much about the scenes and the voting. Ever feel alone in what you think? Are you afraid to speak your mind sometimes because the other shippers don't agree with your opinion? Well pull up a barstool, get a drink, and spill it. Bartenders are, of course, the everyman's therapist.

Comments

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll put my money where my mouth is and go first. I know I've talked to a few people about this, but I'll post it here.

I was never angry with Lee for choosing Dee in TaBFAYW... writers? yes. Lee? No. Because I could understand why he'd choose to. He already has abandonment issues, and Kara's left him once already. She was dead set on staying in her marriage (religiously, you could say) and so he deals with it, starts to move on and she pulls a 180. She was so rooted in her faith and her belief that her marriage was a sacrament. And she was going to leave Sam after all that? How could he trust that it wouldn't happen again. He was just trying to protect himself. We as fans know how Kara felt... but Lee didn't... and if I were him... I would've done the same thing.

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on that, actually. It disappoints me as a shipper who always wants them to finally get their shit together, but I get it.

[innibis.livejournal.com]

You know I agree with you. As a shipper, I wish it hadn't played out like that. As a human being, I completely understand.

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

Also as a tv show it was senseless drama... you can't bring up the question of "should we leave our spouses after having an affair" just to have nothing really change by the end... it's... kinda more of the "let's piss off the shippers" thing that was going on... it was just bad writing.

But as far as human feelings and emotions... I think Lee made a fair call. :( I feel bad for him too, to even have to be in that position anyway.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I'm with you, too. I feel like the episode itself was a bit muddled and the key scenes for that storyline were cut down so far as to be rather baffling, but yes, I instinctively understood where Lee was coming from there. I think your presentation of his motivations is right on the money.

I will also say - I'm not sure if this is an unpopular opinion or not, but I suspect it is - that I was kind of proud of him for trying to save his marriage. I think he married for terrible reasons, and I think his relationship with Dee had even more problems than Kara's relationship with Sam, but at the end of the day I think marriage is a serious thing and I like to see it being treated as emotionally and ethically important, not something that's it's easy or simple to end. And if it has to be ended, I think it needs to be dealt with honestly - cheating bugs me more than divorce because it seems more disrespectful, more selfish. It's all about not facing things. It broke my heart that The Powers That Be put Kara and Lee in the middle of an adulterous situation, because I wanted so much for them to be together, but not like that. I hated not being able to root for them in their scenes together in Season Three, I really did. I just wish they hadn't married other people in the first place, I think that obviously reflected poorly on them as characters and it led to storylines that depressed me, personally. And if they had to marry unwisely, I wish they would have addressed those problems and fixed them rather than constantly skirting around them.

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

"I just wish they hadn't married other people in the first place"

I agree... it was unnecessary drama...

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. I also believe that marriage is something that should be taken very serioulsy at all times and, as a rule, I have very strong feelings about infidelity. However, I believe it is wrong to insist on a mistake. And Lee and Dee's marriage was a mistake. They should never have got married in the first place because no matter what we might believe Dee's feelings were, we are positive that Lee never truly loved (not the same way he loved Kara). I guess it's possible to believe he was trying to fool himself into believing he truly loved and that they had a chance of making it work when he first proposed and when they were together on the Pegasus (even if we consider he did it after Kara left him on New Caprica). However, after the "affair", whether or not it went beyond making out, there was no way he could have continued to lie to himself. There was no way it could have worked out if he was hung up on another woman. If he wanted to divorce his wife to stay with that woman. Under these circumstances, to try to go on with it by sheer force of will is just sad and tragic. Not only for him but for Dee, as well. If he couldn't be the husband she deserved, it would be more honest and less painful in the long run to call everything off regardless of what Kara decided to do.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

You make good points - I also agree that Lee and Dee's marriage was a mistake from the start. I think in the end divorce was the right choice. But I think he owed it to her to be honest about his feelings and to ask her for a divorce upfront rather than having an affair. And I also think it wasn't unreasonable of him to try to recommit to the marriage and see if he could make it work in TABFAYW. I don't think he'd ever really committed to his wife before; I don't think he had made a conscious choice to put Dee before Kara the way he tried to do in this episode. I think he wanted to try, really try. But you're right that feelings can't be forced. I doubt he could have made it work in the end, but I think he needed to find that out - I think the marriage needed to rise or fall on its own merits rather than on Kara Thrace, which is what it wound up doing by the end of the season.

In short, I hear what you're saying, and I think Lee should have learned by that point that he was not going to get over Kara, and I think if he lied to Dee about what he was feeling during their reconciliation scene then that was another tragic and hurtful decision. But I think that maybe he was sincere in thinking that he was ready to finally give himself a chance to fall in love with his wife. Maybe that's just another way of saying that he continued to lie to himself - but I'm not sure he and Dee were wrong in deciding to give their relationship a chance before they abandoned it. We can agree to disagree, there, I guess :)

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Yeah, as sucky as it was, it made sense for his character to not trust that Kara would change her mind on him again.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I was never angry with him for that either. I mean, I absolutely hated that scene and what it represented - that they wouldn't be together (at least not any time soon)- but I totally understand him. As you have already pointed out, she had already left him once and she had made it clear she wouldn't divorce, so it is only reasonble that he would be wary when she offered (in a very tentative way, by the way) to leave her husband. What I didn't like was the fact that he insisted on staying with Dee. I think at that time he should have divorced regardless of what Kara decided to do because I think staying in a marriage when you are absolutely sure you want out can only lead to more heartache to both parties involved.

[latteaddict.livejournal.com]

Hmm, there are fine lines here. I can comprehend why Lee would reject Kara's offer and not trust her. She screwed him over and he never really forgave her or got over it. Lee had every right to make Kara prove she meant it.

But Lee choosing Dee over Kara (as you put it)? That's the part I detest it. Why? Because Lee negates his entire relationship with Kara to do so. He tells Dee he married her because he was in love with her. Yet canon shows Lee was in love with Kara, wanted to dump Dee and only married her because Kara married Sam? So which woman was he in love with on New Cap?
Lee tells Dee he's in love with her now yet keeps looking over at Kara? So who is he in love with? A man in love can only see one woman. The rest fade into the background.
Lee tells Dee he needs her. Isn't that exactly what he told Kara too? So which is it? Who does he need?
He admits to Dee he loved Kara (past tense). Which says he's already turned his back on his feelings for her. Truth or Lie?
Then you've got a few eps earlier where he tells Dee that being with Kara never meant a thing. Clearly a lie.

I hate that Lee chooses Dee in TaB because he betrays Kara in every way to do so. He doesn't even ask Kara to prove she's sincere, only yells at her for dare asking.

At least Kara never sold out Lee to get in Sam's good books. When Sam doubted who Kara loved/wanted, she merely told him that if that's how he felt she wouldn't change his mind. On Demetrius, Kara told Sam flat out that she married him because he was the safe and easy choice. No lies. No emotional betraying.

Kara choosing Sam on New Cap was what it was. He was safe, he was easy. Regardless of Lee's easy dismissal of Zak's ghost as an obstacle in their relationship, we all know Kara was haunted by her part in his death and that's part of the reason she always tried so hard to keep Lee alive and safe from her. Kara also felt Lee deserved better than her which is why she never held back her friendship with Lee whenever he chose Dee over her.

Can anyone honestly say Lee chose Dee because he was doing what was best for Kara? That Kara deserved better than him? That he was keeping her safe?

Motivation is everything.

[baciami2.livejournal.com]

Bravo! *squishes latte for her superb thinky-thoughts*

I had the impression that what Lee was saying to Dee in the bar was meant to show the irony of the situation. Lee felt all those things - but for Kara. Lee's (well-founded) fear of another Kara 180-maneuver has him scurrying back to Dee's arms, but the words and his heart in that scene will always be about Kara to me.