Daily Pilots Post

[dramaturgca.livejournal.com]

Wow, you guys are brilliant and the conversation this week has been awesome. It's been great hosting this week of DPP and I'm looking forward to my next turn in August.

To close out this DPP week, it's a Free-For-All! What do you want to say to K/L shippers? To the pilots themselves? To the world at large?

I would like to say thank you to this amazing community who welcomed me in and I hope we keep going strong. After all, there's a million and one things we haven't written yet!

Comments

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I want to say thank you, Dramaturgca, for a week of great leadership. I really enjoyed your ideas, and I was reminded once again of how fun and thoughtful this comm is :)

** Adama slow clap **

Yay!

I know it's Sunday and people may be tired out with character analysis at this point, but in case anyone is in the mood, I'd like to raise a question:

* I've been thinking about Zak this week, and I'm curious as to whether you all think that Lee and Bill's reactions to Kara's confession about what led to Zak's accident made emotional sense? They both forgive her really quickly -- in Adama's case he was helped along by a near-death experience on her part, but Lee seemed pretty okay with her even before AoC/YCGHA. I think it's interesting how differently Lee apportioned blame and anger when he thought Zak had died because of his father's mistake versus when he found out about Kara's. Is this just a case of the writers mishandling a promising storyline, or would the end of the world realistically push Zak issues into the background? Did Kara need Lee's forgiveness? Did he give it instantly? Did he unconsciously reach that point at some undisclosed moment later on?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Whoa. Good questions, babe. I enjoyed your initial foray into this topic earlier in the week when you attributed love as a key factor in how Lee forgave or didn't forgive Kara and Adama's roles in Zak's death. I have been thinking about that triangle since that comment.

For Lee, he seems to forgive pretty easily once the offending party offers him a sense of remorse or acknowledgment of a mistake. Kara acknowledged her role in Zak's death - she didn't apologize exactly, but it seemed pretty clear that she was suffering for it. I don't think Lee saw the same suffering in Adama because Adama never really felt like it was his fault.

Lee's forgiveness of his father: I get the sense Lee was on the way to forgiving his father during the mini when they had those few powerful moments together: first the mini part I argument where Lee accuses his father of complicity in Zak's death (Lee still obv bitter), mini part II Lee looking at Zak's picture in Adama's quarters followed by that amazing father/son hug (less bitter) and finally, in YCGHA, when his father acknowledges that he would never leave if Lee were lost (healing and confirmation of love). I believe that Lee very much wanted to forgive his father and heal the terrible breach between them. Kara's revelation of her guilt allowed this to happen, although I believe it was already on its way to happening. I would venture to say that much of Lee's blaming Adama for Zak's death was really about Adama's abandonment of Lee as a child. There is clearly a deep well of resentment from Lee about his father and when his sibling died, that seemed reason enough (and in some aspects was) to focus his anger effectively and to avoid, in turn, his own deep sense of vulnerability when it came to his father. Death often focuses built up resentments and hurts into a fine point of blame - this is a very astute character study of Lee's relationship with his father. The writer's nailed it as far as I am concerned. (And bravo to jamie playing the scene with his wonderfully nuanced vulnerability!)

Lee's forgiveness of Kara: I don't think he ever blamed her and in not assigning blame, didn't need to forgive her. That's a simple explanation for a complicated set of emotional circumstances that do include the destruction of the colonies, Kara said as much when she revealed it to him. I don't really have an issue with Lee's "forgiveness" of Kara inasmuch as it occurred. I have more problems with Adama's forgiveness.

Adama's forgiveness of Kara: I think there is some tiny bit of an emotional journey that did not occur for Adama to forgive Kara (at least in YCGHA). He was necessarily and reasonably rageful about Kara's revelation of her role in Zak's death. When Kara went missing, he was faced with the decision to leave or keep searching. I think the writer's meant for him to have somehow forgiven her during the emotions of the situation. I don't see the struggle of him deciding to leave her as also being a process for forgiveness. Others may read it that way and I am curious about it. Maybe there is forgiveness eventually because she IS family. As Adama said, when it's family, you sometimes have to break the rules. I guess I can see the acknowledgment of great love for Kara, but I get the feeling that he had begun to forgive Kara in YCGHA, but I don't think he fully forgave her until Home. Adama had taken the step of cutting off Lee and Kara by refusing to reunite the fleet. His decision to rejoin the two factions seems like a final blanket of forgiveness for both Kara and Lee. (There is probably more to it, but my brain is a little tired now!)

In addition to this discuss, I am curious about why Adama's forgiveness seemed to falter when Kara came back from the dead. (That question itself seems, funnily enough, to answer my inquiry. LOL. "came back from the dead" whew. :D:D)

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Are you a mind reader or something? 'Cause you said EXACTLY EVERYTHING that was on my mind. ;)

So, to summarize my opinion, I totally agree with Rachel's take earlier this week (or last week now :) ) that he forgave Kara because she did what she did out of love wheres he perceived his father's actions to be more about control than love per se.

I think what you said perfectly complements this - it was easier for him to forgive Kara (though she didn't asd for forgiveness) because she felt truly sorry for everything whereas his father refused to aknwoledge he had any part in it whatsoever. Not that he could be held responsible for the accident itself, but he certainly influenced the direction Zac and Lee himself had taken on their lives. Lee's lingering reaction towards his father was rooted on lifelong abandonment issues and resentment.I think what he really wanted was for his father to aknowledge he had made mistakes as a father and that he didn't know either of his sons. Part of it was also a way for him to misdirect the anger he felt at himself. If Zac had ultimately died because he had tried to follow his father's steps in an effort to get his approval and love, Lee had done the same and , in doing so, reinforced those ideas in Zac. Even more so as he probably was more of a role model to Zac than their father ever was. And what made things even worse was the fact that Adama may not have realized any of that, but Lee was aware of it.

I also liked what you said about Adama's forgiveness of Kara.

One the things that strikes about Adama is that, in spite of all his qualities as a leader, he had many flaws as a parent and it was very difficult for him to admit being wrong, especially in a personal context. It's almost as if his "don't second guess your decisions" motto had slipped into his personal life as well. And, even when through actions he showed that he had reconsidered, he never really aknowleged his mistakes out loud and he never said he was sorry. One of the scenes that I feel best portrays this in the one where, after finally reuniting the fleet on Kobol, he tells Roslin he forgave her (supposedly for convincing Kara to recover the arrow of Apollo). I love her response: "I never asked for your forgiveness." He forgave her for her mistakes, but he didn't say a thing about his own (the coup). I think he probably behaved like that all his life and Lee couldn't take it anymore. But yes, he really wanted to forgive his father all along because, despite everything, he truly loved him very much.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Hee. :) Mindreading FTW!

You make an interesting point about Adama's inability to admit he is ever wrong and I agree wholeheartedly that that unyielding position filtered into his personal life. One of the things that makes me crazy about Adama is the incredible tenderness he shows to Roslin and Kara and ALMOST NEVER to Lee. It guts me when I think that Lee sees it and almost never gets it for himself. Why is that? Why is it so important for Adama to treat his son so carelessly. Is it that he actually fully expects Lee to rise above him? To be a perfect man and a perfect CAG? Does he expect him to eschew weakness much as Adama would like to do himself? I understand Lee's anger at Adama but I DO NOT understand Adama's treatment of Lee? Where is that coming from?

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Wonderful questions. His behavior towards Lee usually gets to me, as well. I have to go out now. I'll try to share my thoughts on these issues later tonight.

Have a nice Sunday! ;D

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I got so involved in everything related to UBEX yesterday, that I completely forgot the questions you raised.

I don't have a very good answer to any of them because there was very little information about on the show itself.

First of all, I wouldn't go so far as to say Adama treated Lee carelessly. It seems to me that, most of the time, he was very restrained, very reserved in relation to his son. I think he felt very strongly about him but didn't know how to express it. I know BSG's universe is not supposed to reproduce the exact same values present in our society. They certainly seemed not to have any significant gender or race bias, for example, but we didn't get any input about how a typical family would interact, about the roles everybody was supposed to play inside a typical family .

Men's and women's roles have changed a lot in our society (at least in western societies) and this has changed family dynamics, as well. Lots of modern fathers have a very close relationship with their kids: a relationship that begins with them being present in the delivery room, continues through feeding and changing the baby, attending school presentations, etc. Older men seldom had this kind of relationship with their children. They took on the role of head of the family, the providers, the disciplinarians but they were almost never there for the bedtime stories or any sort of bonding activities, really. Adama reminds me of this kind of father. His age, his military background and values, his contained displays of affection, all this makes me think of men of a different age, really.

To make things even more complicated, his career , and later the divorce,led him to be absent most of the time. He clearly put his career ahead of his family. And in a really old-fashioned way, he left the upbringing of the children solely up to his wife (ex-wife). He became so distant from his family life he never suspected there might have been some sort of abusive relationship going on there. (That really appalled me, by the way.)I also imagine he would try to make up for being absent so often by being very strict ,demanding and/or judgemental the few times he was actually there.

All this would help explain why Lee and his father had always had a rather cold, distant relationship and why Lee grew up resenting his father.

In the end, what it all boils down to is this: they didn't really know each other. However, Adama thought he knew his son or at least the had this idea of who his son was supposed to be simply because he was his son. And Lee was aware they were little more than strangers but felt it had been his father's choice. And he resented that Adama's real family were his crew and that he chose to have a closer, more significative relationship with his crew than with his own flesh and blood. I think he envied the relationship strangers had with Adama.

As for Kara, I think he was more affectionate to her because since she became part of his crew he got to know her better than he knew his son (when did he spend two years seeing his sons everyday before the attacks, for example?). Besides, they met in the aftermath of Zac's death and they supported each other through difficult times then. They had no one to really share their pain with at the time. Adama, because he had become so estranged from the rest of his family, and Kara, because she was secretly dealing with the guilty of her part in Zac's death (and, I guess, her own feelings about Lee).

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Wow!! This is a champion analysis, thank you so much!

I really enjoyed your thoughts, here, especially on the question of Lee's forgiveness of his father. I agree that a lot of the issues that Zak's death raised were about Lee's own resentments -- he felt that his father had pressured him into the military, and that he'd done the same to Zak. I don't think he was wrong about that, actually. The question is whether Zak felt the same reluctance and discomfort as Lee did about the situation, or whether he was choosing this career as something he wanted for himself. It's hard to say -- Zak seemed aware of his own limitations and was more willing to admit to them than anyone else around him. He told Kara he didn't want special treatment from his father or from her (does that mean he suspected that she'd gone easy on him in his flight test? She had to lie and reassure him that he'd passed on his own merits). And in one of the deleted scenes from Daybreak, he tells Kara that Lee is the real soldier in the family, and that "next to him, I'm a kid playing dress-up."

Zak strikes me as the kind of person who didn't have a lot of personal ambition, someone who was pretty comfortable with himself and basically fine with settling into a mediocre career that would make his father happy and give him a chance to be close to the woman he loved. I don't think he really had to be pressured into trying out as a pilot, I think he wanted to make his Dad proud and that once he found Kara he thought his life was definitely taking the right direction. But then again, Kara does say about his flight test that she passed him because "he wanted it so much, and I didn't want to be the one that crushed him." I'm not sure she was really right about that, from what little I've seen of Zak. I think if he'd failed to get his wings he probably would have looked for another role in the service -- I think the wings themselves weren't that important to him; what really mattered was pleasing the people he loved. But then again, one would expect Kara to have figured that out about him, so maybe I'm just way off in my estimation of his character from his two minutes of screen time :)

In any case, I think Lee always thought that his Dad didn't know either of his sons very well, and that the only things he valued in his children were the things that reminded him of himself. Look at that bitter little line in Daybreak: "Dad believes in himself. His code, his rules, his way of life, and if you're not with him in that tiny little bubble then you might as well not exist." Of course both Zak and Lee wound up trying to get into that bubble. Lee succeeded very well and resented it, Zak was no good at it but didn't seem to mind.

All this is just to say that I think Adama *was* a big reason that Zak was in that plane, trying to do dangerous work he wasn't suited for. But Zak was an adult and responsible for his own choices, and Lee was projecting a lot of his own feelings onto his brother in hindsight. (In fact, I don't know whether Lee ever raised any objections to Zak's life choices before the accident? In fanon, he always seems to be aware of Zak's poor skills and to be apprehensive, but is there really any reason to think that he was? Maybe he missed the potential dangers just as much as his father did? And to be fair to them, unqualified pilots are not supposed to make it far enough to be put in the position of flying on their own, that's what Basic Flight is for.)

Anyway, sorry this got to be such a rambling assortment of speculation. I've got to run off on a few errands, but thanks again for your stimulating comments!

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"I think Lee always thought that his Dad didn't know either of his sons very well, and that the only things he valued in his children were the things that reminded him of himself.

I think so, too.

Look at that bitter little line in Daybreak: "Dad believes in himself. His code, his rules, his way of life, and if you're not with him in that tiny little bubble then you might as well not exist."

I don't remember who said this. Was it Zac or Lee?
Anyway, I guess it is not very far from target.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I'm in a ranting mood today after having watched UBEX for the first time last night.

There was so much I loved about it. It spelled out many things that are just implied in UB but I think we get a better understanding of everybody's motivations because of it.

But now, I have a new person to blame for the whole mess of my beloved pilots' relationship besides the writers: Tigh!!!

After I finished watching the only thing on my mind was : what the hell possessed Kara to open up to Tight of all people????? Why couldn't he have been his usual obnoxious self????? Why did he have to start talking about survival????? That was so not what she needed to hear then. If she had opened up to Sam then the results couldn't have been so disastrous.

And Lee's proposal to Dee? And her response? OMG. So sad. For both of them.

And Lee's pain after being abandoned the morning after??? After his confession (I was afraid to admit how much I needed you, how much I needed anyone)??????? Oh Kara, how could you do like that????

And Kara's pain and uncertainty? Why couldn't you open up to him but you did with TIGH??????

OK. End of ranting.

Thank you again Reshma for helping me get a copy! :D

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Hee! The post-UBEX rant, I remember it well :)

I'm sorry I don't have more time to comment at the moment, but I do think the Tigh scene is interesting.

And can I just say re: "I was afraid to admit how much I needed you, how much I needed anyone"...

Was that the sound of an Adama actually facing up to long-standing intimacy issues?? Was that the sound of Lee recognizing Kara's fear and responding by laying open his own vulnerability??? YES IT WAS.

Plus ten million points, Leland. You've earned them. The fact that all this is about to get thrown back in your face in the worst possible way doesn't undo this moment of personal growth. Good job.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Poor leland. :(

If only that pair could have gotten it together at the same time. The UB line about Lee making his moves at the wrong time really got me thinking last night and feeling very frustrated by him. Why didn't he make his move before Kara was with someone else?

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

First, let me say I loved your icon.*swoons* He's so blond, but so handsome!Hee. I guess it's the smile. It's so adorable. :D

Now about you comment regarding the UB line. I assume you are talking about this one:""Knows when to hold back, when to make his move."

Well, it was obviously a jab at Lee. She definetely wanted to get a rise out of him. She was being really nasty about it, if you ask me.

As often happens in situations like that, when people are spoiling for a fight, harsh things are said. There is usually a grain of truth in what is said, but it is also usually distorted to serve one's purpose. When people come to that point, rationality has left the house and only raw emotions are there to do the "talking".

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that yes,he could have made his move before that night on NC, he certainly could have created an opportunity for that and he probably could have chosen a better moment. So there is some truth in that statement. But I don't think it was entirely fair of her for several reasons.

First, because Kara is not the kind of girl who simply sits around waiting for a guy to make his move. She is not that passive in any aspect of her life and one would assume for the several references to her sleeping around habits that that would be true for her love life as well. In fact, she seems to be much more straightforward than him most of the time. Under normal circumstances, she wouldn't resent his lack of initiative because she would be the one to initiate things. And she did initiate them at least a couple of times that we know of: the near frak on the table dare, the near frak in the bunkroom in Scar.

Second, because the few times they seemed to get closer, she did something to reject him. For example: they seemed to have shared a moment during the party on Colonial Day, back on season 1, and she slept with Baltar the very same night. Another example: her "there is nothing here" in Scar followed by her stating she just wanted to use him for sex (as she ended up doing more than once with Sam later, by the way) or the way she threw her relationship with Sam to his face right after he was rescued from Caprica.

When a very assertive woman, one who always goes after what she wants (she fought really hard to convince Adama and Roslin to send a rescue mission to Caprica)and takes no bullshit from anyone tells you to your face that she doesn't love you and that she is pining for someone else, what should you do? Should you pursue her and try to get in the way of her perceived happiness/desire or should you respect that? Of course there is a way to defend both positions and there is no absolute right or wrong answer here. There are just different people with different personalities and backgrounds.

So, what I'm trying to say is that though there was some truth to her jab, it wasn't the whole truth. She wasn't being really fair in my opinion and I guess, deep down, she didn't even believe that. She was simply unhappy with her life at that point, she was in a bad place and she wanted to hurt him as she was hurting. Pretty like she said to Sam once.

I think in the overall theme in UB was summarized in Roslin's line to Adama: they were living in borrowed time. They had got a reprieve from the fight but there were no garantees it would last and everyone was trying to get something out of if while they still able to. That was why so many people decided to leave Galactica and settle on the planet, that is why Adama agreed to let Galen and Cally and Starbuck leave, that is why Lee had his epiphany and poured his heart out to Kara and that was why Dee accepted his marriage proposal knowing beforehand it wouldn't last.

The whole thing is pretty tragic but there is not only one person to blame. Lee's "let's call it a tie" was just perfect. There were no winners on the boxing fight as well as there were no winners in their fight to assign blame for what had gone wrong in their relationship back on NC. The truth does sting, but it stings them both the same way.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Yes yes yes to all of this. No - she was not being fair and in all truth was being incredibly mean to Lee to get a rise out of him. Their timing was always MUTUALLY off in my opinion and she was just as guilty as he was for frakking things up. I mean, okay, so decide you don't want to be with Lee after a one night frak when you're already in a relationship, but DON'T frakking marry the guy. B-R-U-T-A-L. Agh.

Sorry, no coherent thought on this tonight, bb. Makes me so mad! :D:D:D

Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

[kag523.livejournal.com]

Er... I'm going back and forth here on answering for two reasons.

A) Rachel is brilliant, which makes me loathe to say anything that even remotely questions what she says. Seriously, the woman could tell me why *poof* was a perfect ending, and I'd want to agree.

B) My current AU Leland is having a massive emotional post-apocalyptic breakdown as we speak, and I frankly have to get back to writing that. Nonetheless, I'm going out on a limb here...

Does Lee, for the sake of being completely transparent and honest with Kara, end up saying exactly the WRONG things to her? I remember hearing Kara's question: "is this about Zak?" Lee's response (which I'm paraphrasing since I don't have time to go locate it) is something along the lines of "Yeah, that and a lot of reasons". Ugh.

#fact: I love Lee Adama. But seriously, ladies, wouldn't YOU have trouble with that answer? It speaks to ALL of Kara's insecurities, and issues. *head desk*

(Any takers?) Rachel? Please, oh PLEASE, make this work for me!

Re: Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I...am not so enamoured of the "I was afraid to admit how much I needed you, how much I needed anyone" bit in hindsight (though I liked it enough at the time) for two reasons:

1) Kara asks him "Are you sure I'm what you want?" and he says "Yes, you're what I want. And I just don't- I don't think I really knew it until I said it out loud just now." but then goes on to immediately talk about himself when she asks about Zak, saying he needs her, etc.. (I really wish he'd told her why she was more than good enough for him and what things made him love her, because I think she couldn't quite believe him without that.)

2) Later when he's making up with Dee in TABFYW, he says "You are good for me, Dee. And I need you. And I don't think I ever really realized that, till I knew that I was losing you." Which... if you think about it, is the exact same thing he did with Kara. Told her he needed her and that he didn't know it until now when she was threatening to leave. And that sucks because he should not feel the same way about Dee and Kara. Sigh.

Re: Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

[kag523.livejournal.com]

if you think about it, is the exact same thing he did with Kara. Told her he needed her and that he didn't know it until now when she was threatening to leave. And that sucks because he should not feel the same way about Dee and Kara

That. That! THHHHAAAATTTT!!!!!!

It may be my current writing mindset, but that particular reason bothers me even more than the Zak comment. OMG, I had forgotten it (or forced myself to pretend it didn't happen, like the on-the-table-almost-frak).

*shakes head* So wrong. Agreed.

Re: Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"I...am not so enamoured of the "I was afraid to admit how much I needed you, how much I needed anyone"

I love that line as I explained in another post.

"I really wish he'd told her why she was more than good enough for him and what things made him love her, because I think she couldn't quite believe him without that."

I agree with you. In his defense, I repeat that HE didn't know she needed that much reassurance and she didn't really give him time to realize that considering she ran away to get married before he even woke up.

"And that sucks because he should not feel the same way about Dee and Kara"

Well, although the words he used were pretty much the same, I don't think he was really lying to either of them when he said them and I believe he meant different things.

Rachel's analysis of Kara's and Lee's personalities has become my personal canon, so, to quote her again, "the emotional lesson Lee learned [from his abusive childhood]was that he couldn't count on other people". When he said to Kara that he needed her, he was truly opening up to her in a way he probably had never done before. When he said "I don't think I really knew it until I said it out loud just now", I think he meant he had never fully admitted it to himself till then. He knew it, but he refused to accept that truth about himself. Did he not express his idea in the clearest way imaginable? Possible. But then again, that is what conversations are for, when something is not clear, you ask for clarification. If you don't say anything, one would assume the message was conveyed.

Now, when he was talking to Dee, he was talking about something completely different. When he first asked Dee to marry him, right after having been rebuffed by Kara, he said his time with her was the happiest he had been in his life. We don't know a lot about his life before the attacks, so it was probably an exaggeration, but they certainly had good times together, she was good to him. He didn't love her like he did Kara, but he had just admitted he was afraid of needing anybody and the person he needed had abandoned him. Lesson learned: don't NEED (capital words)others, that is not safe.NEED and happiness don't go together.He NEEDED Kara and that made him unhappy. Dee was safe because he didn't really NEED her, he could have a semblance of happiness with her.

Later on, in TABFYW, when he says he needed Dee. His first words were :"You are good for me". Exacly what he said when he proposed. Again, he had been rejected by Kara. Once more, NEED and happiness proved to be incompatible. He needed Dee to maintain the semblance of happiness in his life. He never really NEEDED her. The thing I have trouble accepting, though I understand to an extent, is why he didn't accept it when Kara said she might divorce Sam. But again, communication was the issue.

Re: Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"Rachel is brilliant, which makes me loathe to say anything that even remotely questions what she says.

LOL. That is soooo true. That girl is a genius. I wish she could donate some of her brain cells to us. ;D

"But seriously, ladies, wouldn't YOU have trouble with that answer?"

Well, I'm no Rachel so I can't really articulate my answer as well as she does, but here are my two cents.

To bluntly answer your question, no, that answer wouldn't be a problem for me. I guess I looked at it a different way.

I think Rachel (always her- lol) defined both their personalities perfectly once and I quote (I actually have this on my HD, because I absolutely ADORE it) "it strikes me that the emotional lesson Lee learned [from his abusive childhood]was that he couldn't count on other people, whereas the lesson Kara internalized was that other people couldn't count on her. "

Now, we have to have in mind that, as watchers, WE have are aware of this basic definig trait of their personalities but they themselves aren't aware of this about the other.

So, WE know about Kara's childhood, WE know about feelings for Lee, WE know how she felt about sleeping with Baltar, WE know about her self-worthy issues and the level of the insecurities she hid behind her Starbuck persona. WE also know about Lee's own issues and insecurities. I believe Kara and Lee had a certain grasp of these things about the other but that it was probably based on their observation and intuition about the other rather than on hard facts or frank conversations. So,in Scar, for example, when Kara denied that there was something between them, he thought she was lying and even told her that with his "yeah, right" and the line about dead guys. In UB, he accused her of running away in NC (this was his "the truth stings" moment). But, when confronted with her actions (getting all moody over Sam, fighting so hard to rescue him, hooking up with him afterwards, etc), he had his insecurities.
That is why when they are start talking on NC, he asked if she really loved Sam, if that relationship was what she really wanted. And her silence, her guarded look, her reticence about it, was the reassurance he needed to make his move. So he kissed her. But she kissed him back. He put his feelings on the line there and for a man with the issues he had, a man " couldn't count on other people" to confess he was afraid of admitting he needed ANYONE... that was a big deal. WE know that, but it is quite possible that Kara had no idea how difficult that was for him.

Now, Kara had her own set of insecurities. She had learned "that other people couldn't count on her." So, when she asked him "was it about Zac?", I interpreted it as her roundabout way of asking "Was it about me? Was it because I am unworthy, a cancer?". If he said "Yes, it is about Zac" , than he would be implying it wasn't because of any inherent faults of her own. It was obvious that Zac would be part of it. That was a safe answer. Then when he continued and said there were other reasons but the MAIN one was his own fear of trusting ANYONE , not simply of trusting HER, I really loved it because he was in fact saying HE was the one with issues, not her. That is why his answer didn't bother me, at all. I really loved it. But, of course, her insecurities were not completed assuaged. He had no way of knowing that, though, given he had no idea they ran so deep.

So, all in all, communication was the biggest issue here. And that is why Tigh has become my number 1 despised character (LOL). When she opened up to him the next morning, his line about survival played straight to those insecurities and, well, the rest is history...

Re: Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

[kag523.livejournal.com]

hat is why Tigh has become my number 1 despised character (LOL). When she opened up to him the next morning, his line about survival played straight to those insecurities and, well, the rest is history.

Yes, there is no love lost between Saul Tigh and I either. Same reason. *grits teeth*

(Loved your explanation BTW! YOU, are super-thinky too!)

Re: Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Um...I love this. SO. MUCH.

** high fives your brain! **

I'm pretty much entirely in agreement. I added a few more specific thoughts in a comment below, but basically I am just agreeing with you, with a cherry on top.

Re: Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I'm really coming in late here and I have to say I haven't read the replies to this, but I agree with a lot of what you've said. I understand the idea that Lee's comments were insufficient, but I don't think ANY reassurance, save a long drawn out conversation about their insecurities would actually accomplish that (and even that would have been a stretch). They had just made love for the first time and then they start kissing again and it's all physical. Their brief conversation was, in Lee's mind, I think, supported by the fact that she had sex with him, and more than once I think. Except that in the light of day, Kara changed her mind - freaked out because she'd just cheated on her boyfriend. Yeah, don't kill me, but there is a lot of talk about how incredibly loyal Kara is. In that moment - that horrible terrible morning that she made that decision - she was being loyal TO SAM. (I'm soooo going to regret writing this, I think!) Do I think she acted impulsively, absolutely. Do I think she made the complete wrong decision, yes. Could she have handled it very very differently, yes absolutely. But in the end, in the light of day, would it have really mattered if Lee had said something very much different from what he said to her that night? I'm not sure it would have.

Now let me posit one more point, just cause I've been thinking about it - I do think there could have been a point of intervention for Lee. If he would have paid attention to her doubts - right after the sex. If he would have just stopped and said - hey you don't look so sure - but no, he barreled on through blindly. Screaming out to he stars - then it was clear to me that things were going to go very very badly (not that it wasn't already set up), but I just remember (and still do) cringing at his declaration. I just want to shake him and tell him to stop and LISTEN for frak's sake. Gah.

(Yes, I may have just obliterated my first paragraph altogether by saying maybe something could have been different. After all this time, I am still so conflicted by this episode.)

The Proposal

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I saw UBEX first, as I bought the entire series, so I ALWAYS knew the premise of the proposal. I think that scene in particular is why I had such a hard time taking Dee / Lee seriously. I always wanted to scream whenever they were together. Their damaged start was just so disturbingly flawed. *sigh* Makes me sad even now.

On the shallow side . . .

[(Anonymous)]

Anyone thinking they'd love to write something around the Lee/Kara/Zak relationship should check out "The Black Dahlia" for possible inspiration. Saw it for the first time yesterday and kept comparing the three main characters' relationship to BSG - easy because one of them is even named Lee. Josh Harnett and Aaron Eckhart are partners in the 1940s LAPD and Scarlett Johansson is the girl between them. Lots of early scenes of them frolicking around LA in fabulous clothes, and then things get pretty dark pretty quick.

Re: On the shallow side . . .

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

Strangely, my love for OT3s has had me wanting to read the book (a whole different ball game but perhaps also rec-worthy for the same reason, aside from just being a damn good book from what I've heard) for forever since my sister described the nature of that relationship to me, but I don't remember much about the movie and I think the characters are depicted pretty differently there. Both might be pretty interesting but very different love triangles, as I'm pretty sure that in the book Kay has so much emotional baggage from an abusive relationship she's unable to fully be with either of the men but the guys had this pretty zen understanding between them that they both loved her at some point.
But my gods, some type of hard-boiled-crimefic AU that brings in the Kara/Lee/Zak thing? Would be totally amazing. It's interesting how the whole Zak tragedy seems like it would work in a number of cliched genres; flowrs4ophelia and I have been joking that we're going to write a western revenge story AU since forever.

Re: On the shallow side . . .

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

There is a noir buddy cop fic with Kara and Lee (But I don't think Zak is in it). It's Samstareagle's Battlestar Confidential (). But it's a WIP.