No Takebacks

Hee. :) Mindreading FTW!

You make an interesting point about Adama's inability to admit he is ever wrong and I agree wholeheartedly that that unyielding position filtered into his personal life. One of the things that makes me crazy about Adama is the incredible tenderness he shows to Roslin and Kara and ALMOST NEVER to Lee. It guts me when I think that Lee sees it and almost never gets it for himself. Why is that? Why is it so important for Adama to treat his son so carelessly. Is it that he actually fully expects Lee to rise above him? To be a perfect man and a perfect CAG? Does he expect him to eschew weakness much as Adama would like to do himself? I understand Lee's anger at Adama but I DO NOT understand Adama's treatment of Lee? Where is that coming from?

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Wonderful questions. His behavior towards Lee usually gets to me, as well. I have to go out now. I'll try to share my thoughts on these issues later tonight.

Have a nice Sunday! ;D

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I got so involved in everything related to UBEX yesterday, that I completely forgot the questions you raised.

I don't have a very good answer to any of them because there was very little information about on the show itself.

First of all, I wouldn't go so far as to say Adama treated Lee carelessly. It seems to me that, most of the time, he was very restrained, very reserved in relation to his son. I think he felt very strongly about him but didn't know how to express it. I know BSG's universe is not supposed to reproduce the exact same values present in our society. They certainly seemed not to have any significant gender or race bias, for example, but we didn't get any input about how a typical family would interact, about the roles everybody was supposed to play inside a typical family .

Men's and women's roles have changed a lot in our society (at least in western societies) and this has changed family dynamics, as well. Lots of modern fathers have a very close relationship with their kids: a relationship that begins with them being present in the delivery room, continues through feeding and changing the baby, attending school presentations, etc. Older men seldom had this kind of relationship with their children. They took on the role of head of the family, the providers, the disciplinarians but they were almost never there for the bedtime stories or any sort of bonding activities, really. Adama reminds me of this kind of father. His age, his military background and values, his contained displays of affection, all this makes me think of men of a different age, really.

To make things even more complicated, his career , and later the divorce,led him to be absent most of the time. He clearly put his career ahead of his family. And in a really old-fashioned way, he left the upbringing of the children solely up to his wife (ex-wife). He became so distant from his family life he never suspected there might have been some sort of abusive relationship going on there. (That really appalled me, by the way.)I also imagine he would try to make up for being absent so often by being very strict ,demanding and/or judgemental the few times he was actually there.

All this would help explain why Lee and his father had always had a rather cold, distant relationship and why Lee grew up resenting his father.

In the end, what it all boils down to is this: they didn't really know each other. However, Adama thought he knew his son or at least the had this idea of who his son was supposed to be simply because he was his son. And Lee was aware they were little more than strangers but felt it had been his father's choice. And he resented that Adama's real family were his crew and that he chose to have a closer, more significative relationship with his crew than with his own flesh and blood. I think he envied the relationship strangers had with Adama.

As for Kara, I think he was more affectionate to her because since she became part of his crew he got to know her better than he knew his son (when did he spend two years seeing his sons everyday before the attacks, for example?). Besides, they met in the aftermath of Zac's death and they supported each other through difficult times then. They had no one to really share their pain with at the time. Adama, because he had become so estranged from the rest of his family, and Kara, because she was secretly dealing with the guilty of her part in Zac's death (and, I guess, her own feelings about Lee).

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In the end, what it all boils down to is this: they didn't really know each other. However, Adama thought he knew his son or at least the had this idea of who his son was supposed to be simply because he was his son.

Yes, I agree. I do not think they knew each other. I also think it goes both ways. Lee made a lot of assumptions about his father's decisions without actually ever asking him why he made those decisions. In thinking about it, although it was not mentioned on the show, Bill had fought through the whole cylon war before he had children and his mission to keep the colonies safe undoubtedly influenced his ability to stay present in his family's life. I can imagine a scenario where Bill felt an overwhelming need to protect the colonies - so much so that he abandoned his family, thinking they were being raised well by Carolanne. While some eschew the idea that she was an abusive alcoholic, I can only read A Day in the Life that way. I actually like that episode (almost exclusively for the Lee/Adama interactions, though) because it gives me more backstory for the pair.

Bill also made a lot of assumptions about who Lee was as a man - a man he barely knew. I think the Lee we see in the mini is the best representation of how Lee might have been as an angry teenager rebelling against his father. Unfortunately, I think the image of Lee as an angry teen kind of sticks with Adama through the first two seasons - he seems to have trouble viewing him as a man with his own desires and aspirations that are separate from being a CAG and a pilot. Their relationship does change more in S3, but it's not really until Kara dies that Lee finally lets go and stops trying to please his father and just does what he, as a man, wants to do. :(

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I'm enjoying your comments on Lee and Bill :) What you said about the way Bill's impression of Lee as an angry teenager seemed to linger for a long time reminded me of something that Ron Moore said. In his podcast for 'Hand of God,' he suggested that in Season One Lee felt strongly that the people around him were underestimating him.

I went to look up the transcript of that podcast, and I found these little excerpts:

(About the "don't frak it up by over-thinking" scene between Kara and Lee): I like the fact that they're at each other again, that she really doesn't think he's up to it. That's what comes through. And that he's pissed about it, and he doesn't like it, he thinks he is up to it. Or at least wants a chance to prove it.

(About the giving-him-the-lighter scene between Adama and Lee): Again, it's Lee realizing what the people around him think of him, which I think is an interesting way of going at this - that here's this handsome, heroic lead pilot character in the drama, who starts to realize that the people around him - his own father, his best friend - don't really think he's up to snuff. That his dad...thinks that he might not come back and gives him a lucky charm (laugh) to guide him back and to...kind of spunk him up. And that Starbuck has to stand in rooms and sort of walk him through all the tactics. And it kinda - I think it's a weight that the character carries with him. And it's the determination - (right here) it's the determination in Lee that I think is most telling. He's tenacious, he is not somebody who gives up easily and...probably throughout his life I think many people have underestimated Lee Adama.

I like those observations, I think they do capture something about his early dynamics with his father.

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Really interesting comments. I didn't know that.

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Those transcripts are very interesting - I have to admit that I've never read any of them. I actually remember being surprised that Kara didn't think Lee was up to the task. I felt like it was Kara's own pissed-off attitude and resentment that she was not the one doing the heroics for a change. I didn't really read the scene the way RDM talks about it.

I also don't see that people underestimated lee that much. I always felt that people expected too much of him and that he struggled to give what they expected. Maybe if I turn that around it can approximate people not feeling like he's up to snuff - I don't know. He always seems to deliver when he needs to - but maybe that's after this episode? I mean there is Kara's opinion about his deficits as a CAG at least twice and his overthinking it the one time (if not more). Is it after the tylium mission that people start to respect him? Was it missing before? I'm feeling a bit uncertain about his changing role as is applies to the expectations of other people. There are tremendous pressures placed upon him, pressures he did not ask for, yet there they were and everyone had their eyes on him. When did he disappoint where it actually mattered? Was he a little soft on pilots? Sometimes, yes. Did it get anyone killed? Don't think so. (Whereas Kat blamed kara for the nugget's death in Scar.)

Heh. I totally feel defensive about Lee right now - this is why I don't read the commentaries! LOL. I think I'm going to go off and think a little more before I keep typing myself into a frenzy. :D:D

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Interesting. I never felt that people expected too much of him especifically. And I don't think it is a matter of lack of respect for him or that anybody was disappointed exactly. I think again it is about the fact that people didn't know him. So I think it makes sense for people to underestimate him. He was very young. He had just been promoted to captain. He would never have made CAG so soon if it weren't for the attacks. In fact, we were told the position became his by default since there simply wasn't anybody else with sufficient rank alive to do it. He didn't belong in that ship. And to top it all, he was the commander's son and he had an attitude. So, yes, it makes sense for people not to have great expectations and to have quite reservations about his qualifications to lead them in a time of war. That his own father felt the same way would hurt / bother him more. But then again, we established before he didn't know his son very well either. As for Kara, well...I'd imagine for the most part it was what you said: "pissed-off attitude and resentment that she was not the one doing the heroics for a change".

No need to drive into a frenzy over this. There are plenty of us to help defend Apollo's honor. Don't worry. ;D

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"I also think it goes both ways."

Yes, absolutely. The big difference is that Lee didn't get to choose not to really know his father. It was Adama's decision to stay away for most of his life that prevented him from getting to his son and prevented his son from getting to know him. And I think, after a while, Lee gave up trying to. As a consequence, they both made assumptions about the other.

Lee we see in the mini is the best representation of how Lee might have been as an angry teenager

I'm not so sure about this. I mean, I believe ther probably butted heads a lot and I can certainly imagine uglier confrontations than the one with saw in the mini (they were both trying to restrain themselves a lot there, I think). But I wouldn't imagine teenage Lee to keep up that kind of hardly veiled hostility for long periods of time. I think he would more likely avoid his father as much as possible. And try to be civil and coldly polite when meeting him was unavoidable. But then, when pushed (I guess it wouldn't take a lot to push him), only then would he explode. In the mini I think he was more than cold, he was really rude and passively hostile.

I think the image of Lee as an angry teen kind of sticks with Adama through the first two seasons.

I never thought that. I think that Adama had good leading skills but he hated being contradicted and admitting mistakes. Also, he was used, after being a commander for so long, not to have people question him in any way. He was at the same time authoritative and authoritarian. And Lee was one of the few people who usually talked back to him. He was used to doing that on a personal level, but as an officer, he also had a mind of his own and would always speak his mind. What made things particularly complicated was that it was sometimes hard for them to separate professional disagreements from personal ones. I think Adama struggled with this more than Lee because, as the superior officer, it was always his authority and Lee's loyalty towards him that was being questioned. Besides, he was used to being contradicted by Lee all his life and, considering he didn't really know his son, he tended to believe Lee was questioning for personal rather professional reasons. Ok, now that I have written all this, I guess I finally got what you meant by "the image of Lee as an angry teen". If he thought the way I just described, that is exactly how he would see his son. LOL I guess I agree with you after all. *slapping myself on the head*

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I really love hearing your thoughts about this father-son relationship, I think it's one of the most fascinating dynamics on the show.

I agree with what you've said, and I think the series provided some tantalizing clues about Lee and Bill's problems in little details and throw-away lines.

One of the things that interests me is that Bill put his military career ahead of his family during *peacetime.* The cylon war ended forty years ago. For the entirety of Lee's life his father was always insisting that staying on his battleship was vitally important, despite the fact that his duties there probably consisted of running drills and training rookies. I can't imagine it would have been very different from the boredom and lax routine that the fleet fell into during their time at New Caprica. For *that* he spent his life away from home?

I think he felt more comfortable on his ship than with his family -- his wife was a difficult and tempestuous person, and I get the impression he was happy to spend much of his time at a safe distance. He also apparently deluded himself into thinking that this would be better for the kids -- he thought he was the only one who brought out her mood swings, and that things ran smoothly so long as he wasn't around. (There's that devastating little exchange in 'A Day in the Life,' when Bill says, "Your mother and I had problems, but she loved you and your brother very much. She gave you a home and stability." And Lee just says quietly, "Dad, I know you like to think that, but...you know what? It doesn't matter. It was a long time ago." Breaks my heart every time.)

In the miniseries it's established that the Galactica is an antiquated ship and that Bill is considered a bit of a dinosaur for insisting that, even though there's been no sign of Cylons for decades, they had to stay prepared and that there would be no networking on his ship. He was the like the last lone lookout, waiting for the coming of a war that no one else expected.

And he surrounded himself with misfits, people who would have been rejected or broken by the standard uncompromising rigors of military discipline -- Tigh (a drunk), Starbuck (a self-destructive rule-breaker), even minor officers like Sharon, the rookie who couldn't land her plane. I think he was drawn to damaged, imperfect people and offered them a mix of authoritative command and private affection. They honored his authoritative, dictatorial qualities because they knew they had a lot of problems on their own and they needed a strong hand to set limits for them (I think that's part of how Starbuck and Tigh responded to him). And they were grateful for his affection because they felt it came as a gift they didn't deserve.

Lee, on the other hand, felt he deserved his father's affection, and he was not damaged or out of control on a professional level -- he didn't need his Dad to give him any breaks. This meant he didn't respond well to his father's occasionally dictatorial style of command, and it also meant that his Dad didn't really know how to reach out to him. His usual mix of command toughness and private leniency didn't work with Lee.

Plus, I think that when Bill was faced with a situation that might raise uncomfortable emotions, he habitually evaded it. For example, there's that little line in the miniseries, when he says to Lee: "Congratulations on making Captain. Sorry I couldn't be there for the ceremony." Or that moment at the very end of the miniseries when Lee starts to try to say something, and Bill says, "Why don't we...save this for another time, son?" I think this 'other time' is also known as 'never.' Ah, well.

Of course, Lee was difficult to deal with in his own right, always hostile and ready to assume the worst of his father. There was more than a little irrationality in the way he attacked his father for Zak's death. "Face it: you killed him" was a truly horrible and unjust thing to say, and if I were Bill I wouldn't have wanted to deal with Lee after that, either.

In short, their problems are interesting, and the love that grew between them all the more impressive for overcoming those obstacles.

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I guess I love Lee/Adama as much as I love Lee/Kara. There is not enough fic about it out there, though.

I can't imagine it would have been very different from the boredom and lax routine that the fleet fell into during their time at New Caprica. For *that* he spent his life away from home?

I have to confess I don't know a lot about what the military do on an everyday basis in peacetime, but I wouldn't go so far as calling it boring and I wouldn't say "for *that* his spent his life away from home". I don't know, it kind of sound that the job is not important enough. So, I won't go into this. What I want to say is I have a very good friend who is married to a navy officer. He has just retired and he almost made admiral. They moved around a lot because of his career. Both inside the country and abroad. There were times it was very difficult for the family (it took her almost ten years to finish college, the kids had to change schools a lot, and when they moved to different countries, the school year was different, the language, etc). He did spend periods of time away at see. But none of that prevented him from being part of his family life. His family never felt abandoned because of it. So, yes, the blame for Adama's behavior can't be put on his career alone.

"Dad, I know you like to think that, but...you know what? It doesn't matter. It was a long time ago." Breaks my heart every time.

Mine, too. :(

And he surrounded himself with misfits, people who would have been rejected or broken

I read this a lot in fics, but I don't recall anything like that being said on the show. I only remember that he and the ship were thought to be old-fashioned and that both need to be retired.

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I wouldn't go so far as calling it boring and I wouldn't say "for *that* his spent his life away from home". I don't know, it kind of sound that the job is not important enough.

Good points, thanks for calling me on that. You're right that the military in peacetime is an important defensive and rescue service that deserves to be taken seriously and respectfully, and I'm sorry that my comment seemed to devalue that. It's just that I didn't think that military officers in peacetime would really be unable to make time for their families, whereas in wartime it would be more plausible to envision them as constantly deployed to dangerous areas.

The "surrounding himself with misfits" idea is speculation, but I don't think that Tigh, as we see him in the miniseries, would be second-in-command on anyone else's ship. In the flashbacks in the Season Two premiere, we see that Bill used his personal influence to get Tigh reinstated into the service. And I think he treated Starbuck's disciplinary issues with more leniency than most other commanders would have (that's what Tigh implies in the miniseries when Bill bargains with him to keep her insubordination off the record). And Tigh also suggests that the Chief and Sharon were permitted to break regulations and carry on a relationship on the Galactica when they all thought the ship was close to retirement. I guess I'm saying that Bill seemed to give a lot of leeway to people whom he valued who would probably have gotten themselves into trouble elsewhere.

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This is really a lovely analysis of their relationship. I love the description of the ship of misfits - I had never thought about it that way. It makes sense that Bill would try to manage Lee in the same way that he managed his crew. And I can definitely see how Lee would NOT respond well to that.

I agree with the observation that his marriage was something he was happier with when he was away. That said, I do think there was a tremendous sense of responsibility he seemed to have carried about the war. Fighting in a war and staying in the military changes a person's perspective of what is important. Carolanne married a military man - I can't imagine his being away was a surprise for her. I think Bill's decisions to leave are really up to fanon now, but it does seem reasonable to me that Bill would choose the military over his family and I'm not sure his wife would have expected anything different. Alcoholism does not come from a bad relationship - I don't blame Bill for her problems, although he certainly turned a blind eye to it. I do blame Bill for not making sure his children were okay. That is unforgivable.

It also occurs to me that I don't know how old Lee was when his father left? It would certainly make a difference.

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Great points, all.

Fighting in a war and staying in the military changes a person's perspective of what is important. Carolanne married a military man - I can't imagine his being away was a surprise for her.

Yes, I think you're right ~ in one of the flashbacks in "Scattered" where Bill and Tigh are talking, Bill says that his wife's father has influential connections in the military and that's how he got reinstated into the fleet. So I think we can speculate that Carolanne was familiar with the military life at some level even before she married Bill (though at the time she married him he was serving on a commercial freighter, not in the armed services).

And I think that Bill's experience in the first Cylon War profoundly affected him, and that he believed passionately that vigilant defense and preparation was necessary to prevent another such disaster. His commitment to old safeguards -- like non-networked ships -- set him apart from many others in the military who had grown complacent. I think Lee might have been among those who considered his father's vigilance to be misguided, though. He seemed annoyed upon his arrival at Galactica to learn that his father mandated hands-on landings, and he was unimpressed with the old model Viper he was given to fly in the decommissioning ceremony. These anti-Cylon precautions were obviously not ones he was used to. I would speculate that Lee believed that his father was still fighting a war that was long over. I think that might have been one of his sources of resentment.

Of course, he found out soon enough that his father had been right.

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He seemed annoyed upon his arrival at Galactica to learn that his father mandated hands-on landings, and he was unimpressed with the old model Viper he was given to fly in the decommissioning ceremony.

That is true. However, about the old viper, I think he was annoyed because it had been his father's viper and everybody was so intent on honoring him whereas he couldn't care less about it, given the state of his relationship with daddy at the time. Also, I got the impression he was the only one using that specific model for the cerimony. The rest of the squadron used Viper 7 models and that is why they were all killed on the first wave of attacks. The old models they started to use were the ones that were onboard to be exhibited on the museum.

I would speculate that Lee believed that his father was still fighting a war that was long over. I think that might have been one of his sources of resentment.

Yes, absolutely.

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Oh, yes, you're right that Lee was the only one in an old Viper -- it wasn't a security measure, just an homage which he resented for personal reasons. Righto.

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