No Takebacks

Hee! The post-UBEX rant, I remember it well :)

I'm sorry I don't have more time to comment at the moment, but I do think the Tigh scene is interesting.

And can I just say re: "I was afraid to admit how much I needed you, how much I needed anyone"...

Was that the sound of an Adama actually facing up to long-standing intimacy issues?? Was that the sound of Lee recognizing Kara's fear and responding by laying open his own vulnerability??? YES IT WAS.

Plus ten million points, Leland. You've earned them. The fact that all this is about to get thrown back in your face in the worst possible way doesn't undo this moment of personal growth. Good job.

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Poor leland. :(

If only that pair could have gotten it together at the same time. The UB line about Lee making his moves at the wrong time really got me thinking last night and feeling very frustrated by him. Why didn't he make his move before Kara was with someone else?

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First, let me say I loved your icon.*swoons* He's so blond, but so handsome!Hee. I guess it's the smile. It's so adorable. :D

Now about you comment regarding the UB line. I assume you are talking about this one:""Knows when to hold back, when to make his move."

Well, it was obviously a jab at Lee. She definetely wanted to get a rise out of him. She was being really nasty about it, if you ask me.

As often happens in situations like that, when people are spoiling for a fight, harsh things are said. There is usually a grain of truth in what is said, but it is also usually distorted to serve one's purpose. When people come to that point, rationality has left the house and only raw emotions are there to do the "talking".

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that yes,he could have made his move before that night on NC, he certainly could have created an opportunity for that and he probably could have chosen a better moment. So there is some truth in that statement. But I don't think it was entirely fair of her for several reasons.

First, because Kara is not the kind of girl who simply sits around waiting for a guy to make his move. She is not that passive in any aspect of her life and one would assume for the several references to her sleeping around habits that that would be true for her love life as well. In fact, she seems to be much more straightforward than him most of the time. Under normal circumstances, she wouldn't resent his lack of initiative because she would be the one to initiate things. And she did initiate them at least a couple of times that we know of: the near frak on the table dare, the near frak in the bunkroom in Scar.

Second, because the few times they seemed to get closer, she did something to reject him. For example: they seemed to have shared a moment during the party on Colonial Day, back on season 1, and she slept with Baltar the very same night. Another example: her "there is nothing here" in Scar followed by her stating she just wanted to use him for sex (as she ended up doing more than once with Sam later, by the way) or the way she threw her relationship with Sam to his face right after he was rescued from Caprica.

When a very assertive woman, one who always goes after what she wants (she fought really hard to convince Adama and Roslin to send a rescue mission to Caprica)and takes no bullshit from anyone tells you to your face that she doesn't love you and that she is pining for someone else, what should you do? Should you pursue her and try to get in the way of her perceived happiness/desire or should you respect that? Of course there is a way to defend both positions and there is no absolute right or wrong answer here. There are just different people with different personalities and backgrounds.

So, what I'm trying to say is that though there was some truth to her jab, it wasn't the whole truth. She wasn't being really fair in my opinion and I guess, deep down, she didn't even believe that. She was simply unhappy with her life at that point, she was in a bad place and she wanted to hurt him as she was hurting. Pretty like she said to Sam once.

I think in the overall theme in UB was summarized in Roslin's line to Adama: they were living in borrowed time. They had got a reprieve from the fight but there were no garantees it would last and everyone was trying to get something out of if while they still able to. That was why so many people decided to leave Galactica and settle on the planet, that is why Adama agreed to let Galen and Cally and Starbuck leave, that is why Lee had his epiphany and poured his heart out to Kara and that was why Dee accepted his marriage proposal knowing beforehand it wouldn't last.

The whole thing is pretty tragic but there is not only one person to blame. Lee's "let's call it a tie" was just perfect. There were no winners on the boxing fight as well as there were no winners in their fight to assign blame for what had gone wrong in their relationship back on NC. The truth does sting, but it stings them both the same way.

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Yes yes yes to all of this. No - she was not being fair and in all truth was being incredibly mean to Lee to get a rise out of him. Their timing was always MUTUALLY off in my opinion and she was just as guilty as he was for frakking things up. I mean, okay, so decide you don't want to be with Lee after a one night frak when you're already in a relationship, but DON'T frakking marry the guy. B-R-U-T-A-L. Agh.

Sorry, no coherent thought on this tonight, bb. Makes me so mad! :D:D:D

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Er... I'm going back and forth here on answering for two reasons.

A) Rachel is brilliant, which makes me loathe to say anything that even remotely questions what she says. Seriously, the woman could tell me why *poof* was a perfect ending, and I'd want to agree.

B) My current AU Leland is having a massive emotional post-apocalyptic breakdown as we speak, and I frankly have to get back to writing that. Nonetheless, I'm going out on a limb here...

Does Lee, for the sake of being completely transparent and honest with Kara, end up saying exactly the WRONG things to her? I remember hearing Kara's question: "is this about Zak?" Lee's response (which I'm paraphrasing since I don't have time to go locate it) is something along the lines of "Yeah, that and a lot of reasons". Ugh.

#fact: I love Lee Adama. But seriously, ladies, wouldn't YOU have trouble with that answer? It speaks to ALL of Kara's insecurities, and issues. *head desk*

(Any takers?) Rachel? Please, oh PLEASE, make this work for me!

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I...am not so enamoured of the "I was afraid to admit how much I needed you, how much I needed anyone" bit in hindsight (though I liked it enough at the time) for two reasons:

1) Kara asks him "Are you sure I'm what you want?" and he says "Yes, you're what I want. And I just don't- I don't think I really knew it until I said it out loud just now." but then goes on to immediately talk about himself when she asks about Zak, saying he needs her, etc.. (I really wish he'd told her why she was more than good enough for him and what things made him love her, because I think she couldn't quite believe him without that.)

2) Later when he's making up with Dee in TABFYW, he says "You are good for me, Dee. And I need you. And I don't think I ever really realized that, till I knew that I was losing you." Which... if you think about it, is the exact same thing he did with Kara. Told her he needed her and that he didn't know it until now when she was threatening to leave. And that sucks because he should not feel the same way about Dee and Kara. Sigh.

Edited Date: 2010-07-18 11:39 pm (UTC)

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if you think about it, is the exact same thing he did with Kara. Told her he needed her and that he didn't know it until now when she was threatening to leave. And that sucks because he should not feel the same way about Dee and Kara

That. That! THHHHAAAATTTT!!!!!!

It may be my current writing mindset, but that particular reason bothers me even more than the Zak comment. OMG, I had forgotten it (or forced myself to pretend it didn't happen, like the on-the-table-almost-frak).

*shakes head* So wrong. Agreed.

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Honestly, for such a good speechifier, Lee is really awful at declarations of love. I mean, his proposal to Dee is the most selfish, wrong-headed, unromantic thing EVER. And his speech in TABFYW to get her to take him back is even worse. He says she's good for him (like medicine!) and that's why he needs her, even though he'll probably always love Kara and then he proceeds to eyefrak Kara across the room as he and Dee hold hands/rub foreheads.

I don't even know... Sometimes I forget what an emotional frakup Lee is too. But then I think about this and remember. Sigh.

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"I...am not so enamoured of the "I was afraid to admit how much I needed you, how much I needed anyone"

I love that line as I explained in another post.

"I really wish he'd told her why she was more than good enough for him and what things made him love her, because I think she couldn't quite believe him without that."

I agree with you. In his defense, I repeat that HE didn't know she needed that much reassurance and she didn't really give him time to realize that considering she ran away to get married before he even woke up.

"And that sucks because he should not feel the same way about Dee and Kara"

Well, although the words he used were pretty much the same, I don't think he was really lying to either of them when he said them and I believe he meant different things.

Rachel's analysis of Kara's and Lee's personalities has become my personal canon, so, to quote her again, "the emotional lesson Lee learned [from his abusive childhood]was that he couldn't count on other people". When he said to Kara that he needed her, he was truly opening up to her in a way he probably had never done before. When he said "I don't think I really knew it until I said it out loud just now", I think he meant he had never fully admitted it to himself till then. He knew it, but he refused to accept that truth about himself. Did he not express his idea in the clearest way imaginable? Possible. But then again, that is what conversations are for, when something is not clear, you ask for clarification. If you don't say anything, one would assume the message was conveyed.

Now, when he was talking to Dee, he was talking about something completely different. When he first asked Dee to marry him, right after having been rebuffed by Kara, he said his time with her was the happiest he had been in his life. We don't know a lot about his life before the attacks, so it was probably an exaggeration, but they certainly had good times together, she was good to him. He didn't love her like he did Kara, but he had just admitted he was afraid of needing anybody and the person he needed had abandoned him. Lesson learned: don't NEED (capital words)others, that is not safe.NEED and happiness don't go together.He NEEDED Kara and that made him unhappy. Dee was safe because he didn't really NEED her, he could have a semblance of happiness with her.

Later on, in TABFYW, when he says he needed Dee. His first words were :"You are good for me". Exacly what he said when he proposed. Again, he had been rejected by Kara. Once more, NEED and happiness proved to be incompatible. He needed Dee to maintain the semblance of happiness in his life. He never really NEEDED her. The thing I have trouble accepting, though I understand to an extent, is why he didn't accept it when Kara said she might divorce Sam. But again, communication was the issue.

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I don't believe he was lying to them either. I think he meant it both times...but that's why it bothers me. We can fanwank it and interpret it all we want, but it bugs me that the words he says to them both are almost identical. And they make Lee seem selfish honestly. Which I don't think he truly is (though he and Kara both share the tendency to self-absorption obviously). I just think Lee is really, horribly good at lying to himself and telling himself whatever he needs to believe in the moment.

As I said to Kag above, they're both such emotional frakups, but sometimes I forget that with Lee, because he's so functional most of the time.

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"they're both such emotional frakups, but sometimes I forget that with Lee, because he's so functional most of the time. "

LOL. He does hide it better. But he is certainly as fraked up as she is.

"They make Lee seem selfish honestly. Which I don't think he truly is."

I agree with you. But one the things I like about BSG is that you can't find the stereotypical hero there. You have lots of really good people (like Kara and Lee) who are as emotioanally fraked up as anybody else.

"I just think Lee is really, horribly good at lying to himself and telling himself whatever he needs to believe in the moment."

Absolutely. ;D
Everybody has their defense mechanisms and they are not usually pretty. In my country, we say (in a free translation) that "under close inspection, nobody is sane". That is so true. LOL

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Hee! After writing a comment below, I came back up the page and found most of my thoughts once again anticipated :) Lovely analysis, throughout. You and Taragel both give Lee's speech to Dee about need in TABFAYW more a bit more credence than I did ~ but I think perhaps we are all seeing it as a sign of his talent for self-deception. I loved your point about how Dee became safe and desirable once 'need' and 'happiness' once again proved incompatible for him. What a great point!

When my husband first watched the Lee/Dee proposal scene, I told him how much I disliked it and he said, "Oh, I don't know. It seems to fit Lee's particular brand of desperate insincerity."

Desperate insincerity -- not his finest quality, but definitely very much on display at the end of UBEX :)

Re: Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

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callmeonetrack.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-07-19 05:23 pm (UTC) - Expand

Re: Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

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rachelindeed.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-07-19 05:49 pm (UTC) - Expand

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"Rachel is brilliant, which makes me loathe to say anything that even remotely questions what she says.

LOL. That is soooo true. That girl is a genius. I wish she could donate some of her brain cells to us. ;D

"But seriously, ladies, wouldn't YOU have trouble with that answer?"

Well, I'm no Rachel so I can't really articulate my answer as well as she does, but here are my two cents.

To bluntly answer your question, no, that answer wouldn't be a problem for me. I guess I looked at it a different way.

I think Rachel (always her- lol) defined both their personalities perfectly once and I quote (I actually have this on my HD, because I absolutely ADORE it) "it strikes me that the emotional lesson Lee learned [from his abusive childhood]was that he couldn't count on other people, whereas the lesson Kara internalized was that other people couldn't count on her. "

Now, we have to have in mind that, as watchers, WE have are aware of this basic definig trait of their personalities but they themselves aren't aware of this about the other.

So, WE know about Kara's childhood, WE know about feelings for Lee, WE know how she felt about sleeping with Baltar, WE know about her self-worthy issues and the level of the insecurities she hid behind her Starbuck persona. WE also know about Lee's own issues and insecurities. I believe Kara and Lee had a certain grasp of these things about the other but that it was probably based on their observation and intuition about the other rather than on hard facts or frank conversations. So,in Scar, for example, when Kara denied that there was something between them, he thought she was lying and even told her that with his "yeah, right" and the line about dead guys. In UB, he accused her of running away in NC (this was his "the truth stings" moment). But, when confronted with her actions (getting all moody over Sam, fighting so hard to rescue him, hooking up with him afterwards, etc), he had his insecurities.
That is why when they are start talking on NC, he asked if she really loved Sam, if that relationship was what she really wanted. And her silence, her guarded look, her reticence about it, was the reassurance he needed to make his move. So he kissed her. But she kissed him back. He put his feelings on the line there and for a man with the issues he had, a man " couldn't count on other people" to confess he was afraid of admitting he needed ANYONE... that was a big deal. WE know that, but it is quite possible that Kara had no idea how difficult that was for him.

Now, Kara had her own set of insecurities. She had learned "that other people couldn't count on her." So, when she asked him "was it about Zac?", I interpreted it as her roundabout way of asking "Was it about me? Was it because I am unworthy, a cancer?". If he said "Yes, it is about Zac" , than he would be implying it wasn't because of any inherent faults of her own. It was obvious that Zac would be part of it. That was a safe answer. Then when he continued and said there were other reasons but the MAIN one was his own fear of trusting ANYONE , not simply of trusting HER, I really loved it because he was in fact saying HE was the one with issues, not her. That is why his answer didn't bother me, at all. I really loved it. But, of course, her insecurities were not completed assuaged. He had no way of knowing that, though, given he had no idea they ran so deep.

So, all in all, communication was the biggest issue here. And that is why Tigh has become my number 1 despised character (LOL). When she opened up to him the next morning, his line about survival played straight to those insecurities and, well, the rest is history...

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hat is why Tigh has become my number 1 despised character (LOL). When she opened up to him the next morning, his line about survival played straight to those insecurities and, well, the rest is history.

Yes, there is no love lost between Saul Tigh and I either. Same reason. *grits teeth*

(Loved your explanation BTW! YOU, are super-thinky too!)

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If you dislike Tigh for this, you also gotta hate Chief for ostensibly talking Apollo into making it work with Dee again in TABFYW. (When Lee says do you ever have regrets/think of Sharon, and Chief totally baldface lies and says No.)

Damn dirty cylons.

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OMG. You're right. Tigh and Chief were both cylons. I keep forgetting that. It must have been part of their evil plan all along...

Damn cylons.! LOL

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See, they did have a plan in the end!

Cockblocking K/L.

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I wander away and come back to find such goldmines of discussion! Yay!

Here's the scene:

Kara: (looking insecure) Are you sure I'm what you want?
Lee: (looking earnest) Yeah, you're what I want. I just...I don't think I really knew it until I said it out loud just now.
Kara: (gently, sadly) Why? Because of Zak?
Lee: (looking pained) Yeah, and a lot of things...um...but mostly because I was afraid...to admit how much I needed you. How much I needed anyone.
Kara: (nodding with a look of empathy) Yeah.
Lee: I love you, Kara Thrace.
Kara: I love you, too. (Kisses, hug, and a look on Kara's face that I can only describe as victorious. There is no insecurity in her eyes at this moment. Her smile here is almost a mirror of her smile at the end of the episode after she hears "I missed you, too.")

OK. By far the most controversial line is 1) "I don't think I really knew it until I said it out loud just now," followed closely by 2) "Yeah, [it was Zak] and a lot of things..."

So let's start with #1. Lee admits he's been wilfully blind to his own deepest desires and that until tonight he hadn't allowed himself to acknowledge, even in his own mind, that the only life he wanted was one with Kara. I think this was true. For the last few months at least he had been with Dee, working very hard to convince himself that he could be content with her. And before Dee, he'd worked hard to believe that he could be content on his own. He had a long history of pretending that he would be fine even if Kara remained nothing more than a friend or colleague.

Why had he been so willing to settle? Why did he have so much trouble facing and expressing the true extent of his feelings for Kara? This is the question that Kara asks him, and she suggests a plausible answer: was guilt over Zak the reason he'd shied away from her?

This brings us to his response #2. He says that yes, their complicated history with Zak had made his desire for Kara something that it wasn't always easy for him to embrace. Residual guilt was one factor in his long history of not-reaching-for-her. But he says that he held back *mostly because* the strength of his feelings terrified him and he was too scared to admit to them. He didn't just want her, he *needed* her (he couldn't be happy without her), and facing that truth was incredibly difficult for him because all his life he'd been afraid of depending on anyone else so completely. He'd learned to expect abandonment.

Kara nods her head at this moment, like she understands these fears.

And then Lee tells her simply, "I love you." She began their exchange by asking him if he wanted her, and he answered by speaking first of desire, then of need, and finally of love.

To me, his words basically boil down to: I'm offering you everything now -- I didn't have the guts to do it before because I was too tangled up in the past and too good at lying to myself and too frakking scared, but all those things were my problems and I'm over them now.

And just look at Kara's face when she offers her love in return and embraces him. She is transcendently happy there -- she looks like, for that moment, she believes this is real.

That's why I love this conversation, even though it's an ephemeral moment of growth undercut by later events. The very next morning, after Kara's marriage, Lee goes right back to trying to settle with Dee and works desperately to deceive both himself and her into believing they can be happy together. He persists in this self-deception whenever things fall apart with Kara, as Taragel pointed out when discussing his little "need" speech to Dee in TABFAYW. But to me that speech seems as different from UBEX as night from day, because with Kara he was telling the truth about his feelings, whereas with Dee he was not.

That's my take on it, but you can certainly judge for yourself whether I'm reading way too much in :)

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Oh hon, this... THIS is why I need to borrow your brain sometimes. Seriously, I'm struggling tonight with the highest-angst Lee scene I've done and it's fighting me. Wish you were here to write it with me.

Thank you for the lovely explanation. See? I KNEW you could explain it in a way which makes me feel better about it. (I'm still not giving up my dislike of the line, but "understanding" makes it a little more palatable.)

*spins you around* You ROCK!

Re: Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

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rachelindeed.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-07-19 05:08 am (UTC) - Expand

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That's pretty much the take we have to have to remain shippers, right? ;)

Re: Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

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Re: Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

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Re: Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

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Re: Ten Million Points... but should some of them be dropped on the instant recall?

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callmeonetrack.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-07-19 07:00 pm (UTC) - Expand

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Um...I love this. SO. MUCH.

** high fives your brain! **

I'm pretty much entirely in agreement. I added a few more specific thoughts in a comment below, but basically I am just agreeing with you, with a cherry on top.

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I'm really coming in late here and I have to say I haven't read the replies to this, but I agree with a lot of what you've said. I understand the idea that Lee's comments were insufficient, but I don't think ANY reassurance, save a long drawn out conversation about their insecurities would actually accomplish that (and even that would have been a stretch). They had just made love for the first time and then they start kissing again and it's all physical. Their brief conversation was, in Lee's mind, I think, supported by the fact that she had sex with him, and more than once I think. Except that in the light of day, Kara changed her mind - freaked out because she'd just cheated on her boyfriend. Yeah, don't kill me, but there is a lot of talk about how incredibly loyal Kara is. In that moment - that horrible terrible morning that she made that decision - she was being loyal TO SAM. (I'm soooo going to regret writing this, I think!) Do I think she acted impulsively, absolutely. Do I think she made the complete wrong decision, yes. Could she have handled it very very differently, yes absolutely. But in the end, in the light of day, would it have really mattered if Lee had said something very much different from what he said to her that night? I'm not sure it would have.

Now let me posit one more point, just cause I've been thinking about it - I do think there could have been a point of intervention for Lee. If he would have paid attention to her doubts - right after the sex. If he would have just stopped and said - hey you don't look so sure - but no, he barreled on through blindly. Screaming out to he stars - then it was clear to me that things were going to go very very badly (not that it wasn't already set up), but I just remember (and still do) cringing at his declaration. I just want to shake him and tell him to stop and LISTEN for frak's sake. Gah.

(Yes, I may have just obliterated my first paragraph altogether by saying maybe something could have been different. After all this time, I am still so conflicted by this episode.)

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If he would have just stopped and said - hey you don't look so sure - but no, he barreled on through blindly.

I guess if he had realized that, he might have had a better chance. I'm not sure how well it would have worked but if she at least hadn't got married, it would have been worth it. But, and maybe I'm being absolutely biased here, I can't find fault in his overall behavior there. As they say, hindsight is always 20/20, right? Looking at his face when he said he needed and loved her, you could see how emotional the whole thing was for him. He might not have realized at all there was a problem (being a tad insensitive and self-centered, as I think is your interpretation) or he might have thought she was just overwhelmed by their admissions and was just feeling very emotional herself. The fact is he didn't have reason to think there was really anything so wrong because he never realized her issues ran so deep nor the exact nature of them. Also, he didn't have time to realize anything was wrong because she was gone without a word the next morning. I really recommend you read Rachel's answer to Karin's question above because, although we share the exact same opinion on this, she expresses it in such a clear, beautiful way that if I wasn't already in love with the whole scene, I would have certainly fallen in love with it after reading what she wrote.

Yeah, don't kill me, but there is a lot of talk about how incredibly loyal Kara is. In that moment - that horrible terrible morning that she made that decision - she was being loyal TO SAM.

Don't worry,bb. No death threats from me. LOL
But I couldn't DISAGREE more with you on this. Not the Kara is loyal part, but the she was being loyal to Sam part. I really don't see it. At all.

We talked a lot of this thread about Lee's self-deceiving skills. I for one don't think he was the only one with such abilities and I strongly believe Kara cared a lot for Sam, she might even have convinced herself she loved him at same point (pretty much like Lee tried to believe he loved Dee), but, to my mind, that was not the issue there.

First, being loyal and being faithful are not necessarily the same thing. The idea of being unfaithful to her husband didn't seem to bother her very much during the "affair" with Lee. And, if we are to believe Sam himself, Lee wouldn't even have been her first fling then. And that was after the made her vows in front of the gods. So, before that, it would have been easier. I think she was always loyal to both of them, though, meaning I believe she would do anything for them (or for anybody she loved in any kind of capacity - friend, family, lover...). She is the kind of person who sticks by you through tough times.

Second, the way she treated Sam while they were married was pretty awful sometimes. In UBEX, for example, after she had sex with him (while remembering her one night with Lee, I might add), he said he wanted a real marriage and that maybe he wasn't what she really wanted. To which she replied, in a very nonchalant way I believe: "If that is what you think, I won't try to change your mind" (or something like this). And she left for the dance. Just like that. She wasn't really invested in the relationship.

So, I don't believe for a second it played any significant part in explaining her actions that morning.

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Yeah, the loyalty to sam is a new idea for me. I am not wholly convinced, but I have never quite felt completely sold on the idea that Kara ran JUST because she was afraid. Yes, mostly, but not completely. The thing that planted the loyalty to sam idea in my head was that I was trying to imagine Kara's state of mind before that night with Lee. As a shipper, I feel like I romanticize the encounter (and with good reason no less) that here they are finally - two people that have been in love without acting upon it. Finally!!

But - I was also struck by how unfortunate the timing actually was. From everything I can remember, Kara and Sam were in a relationship. I'm not saying they were engaged or anything, but they were in a relationship and seemed very close - calling each other Baby and Honey that very morning. The deleted scenes show them happily interacting with the Tighs and seeming all cozy together. Then she sleeps with Lee. It was dark, they were drunk, desperate, etc. I guess Kara holding some form of concern for Sam helps me understand why she would go back to him. Maybe it's crazy, I don't know. I guess that I come from the perspective that Kara did love Sam, just not the same way or with the soulmate intensity that she had for Lee. The loyalty to Sam is a small point for me, but I thought it was worth exploring.

Thanks for not killing me. Hee. LOL!

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