No Takebacks

I think quite literally Kara's photos blew her away. She has a line, "Thrace. She took off and did the whole recon mission alone. My gods, look at these shots, Jack. She put her nose right up their backsides and they never even knew it."

I guess after that she finds out about Lee, but Cain is definitely someone who responds more to flashy, fearless actions (and I could see her being less impressed by the quiet behind-the-scenes plotting). Plus, Lee is Adama's son. Kara may be close to him but she's not a direct relative. I'm not sure how much of that relationship Cain could know about. I'm sure divide-and-conquer would be appealing as a motive too but I'd think that's lower on the list.

I do think also that Cain responds more to women in all avenues of her life. Maybe there was some latent attraction there too, (because who doesn't want to frak starbuck?) but more than that, we see her in mentor-ish mode with Shaw, with Gina to a degree, with Kara. I think she just responds to women and wants to engage with women more. She doesn't seem to have much use for the men she deals with.

ETA: I remember being surprised that Lee was a little pissy about "answering to one of his pilots" or whatever. We know he has no issues with a woman leading the way, or even letting Kara lead the way, so I think he would've probably been okay with it after he got over his initial annoyance/disappointment.

Edited Date: 2010-08-13 06:38 pm (UTC)

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I like the points you make, here. I hadn't thought about it this way before, but of course from an outsider's point of view it might seem like Lee is more firmly in Adama's camp than Kara just because of their familial relationship (although given that Cain knows he and Kara both mutinied in support of the President, this seems like a sketchy bit of reasoning on her part).

But Kara's actions do seem more independent and daring (jumping to Caprica, busting up Cylon farms and planning to rescue the resistance, flying the Blackbird straight into the Cylon fleet. And although Lee did authorize it, the idea to recon the Cylon fleet alone in the Blackbird came from Kara, not Lee). I could see Cain looking upon Lee as more of an operator, switching sides according to which way the wind seems to be blowing. That's a bad assessment, but I could see her making it. Plus, she has no respect for Roslin, so Lee's links with the President (which I'm sure Bill would have emphasized in his logs from the "picking a side/I have nothing to say to the personal advisor of the President" point onward) would work against him in her view. In fact, most of his independent decisions -- like the way he handled Zarek on the Astral Queen -- would have struck her as dangerous and idiotic.

I kind of suspected there was an element of sexism in Cain's treatment of the men under her command, but it was very subtly played, so I wouldn't attribute too much to it.

And I agree with you on Lee's being basically OK with Kara's promotion. I think what bothered him about it was the same thing that always bothered him, as he later admitted: "You were doing what you always did. Buck authority, and get away with it. I bucked authority once, and I almost lost everything. And here you were, doing it all over again. I dunno ~ it pissed me off. Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?"

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Jumping in here on a slight tangent:

"You were doing what you always did. Buck authority, and get away with it. I bucked authority once, and I almost lost everything. And here you were, doing it all over again. I dunno ~ it pissed me off. Doesn't make a lot of sense, does it?"

These lines always seemed a bit off for me. I always thought Lee was actually angry about her shooting him and never coming to see him about it. So those lines seem like he's pretending or just bad writing. Anyone else get that sense?

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baciami2.livejournal.com

I think this actually did piss Lee off, that is, Kara gets away with everything, even promoted, and Lee gets screwed.

The REAL REASON was Kara not coming to see him after she shot him. I don't believe he's that mad about her shooting him - it was a mistake after all.

But then, if she had agreed to a relationship back in Scar, then she would have been with Lee in the bar instead of Dee. RDM's original plan was to have her get with some anonymous marine during her R&R time, which was interrupted by the hostage situation. IIRC...

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Interesting. I think he was angry about the shooting (and especially about her disappearing on him afterwards), but I felt like they dealt with that in their earlier scene -- "You're life's so hard, isn't it?" / "Oh, you mean since I got shot?" -- and when he sees the pain on her face, you can tell that he regrets throwing that in her face. It's a beautiful, silent moment between them, and when she asks if he wants to hear her ideas about the missing pilots and he just looks at her, clearly open to whatever she wants to say, I felt like that was an unspoken agreement between the two of them to move on.

There's a deleted scene from the episode that was supposed to take place a bit later on, where they are arguing about Garner. He says that he knows Garner is making some mistakes, but that she owes the man her respect and support in his efforts to do the best he can in a bad situation, instead of always undermining him and cutting him down infront of the crew. And Kara says she and the crew deserve good leadership and shouldn't be expected to kowtow to people unworthy of the authority they hold. It's one of my favorite arguments between them, actually. Kara clearly wins the overall point, and Lee concedes but he's still inarticulately mad. He clearly thinks it might be because of the residual effects of the shooting, and he actually talks it out, for once: "I know you didn't mean to shoot me, Kara. I know that. I don't know why I'm mad at you. I really don't. I just am."
It's a little bit awful, but also really honest, and I love it.

I read that final scene, where he talks about her bucking authority, as his attempt to get down to some underlying resentments that have been festering for a while. I think he does honestly feel like she goes about things in whatever way she feels like, making life difficult for the people like him who are left to manage her messes and be the middlemen in her conflicts, and that what irritated him in the whole Garner situation was that Kara was right in all her tactical and professional decisions, but so unnecessarily abrasive in her attitude that she sabotaged herself and expected Lee to bail her out and smooth things over. I think he was already mad at her over the shooting (and maybe even over the unresolved mess from Scar), and was seriously not in the mood to do his usual diplomatic schtick. In short, I think there were a lot of issues bundled up in their fight throughout the episode, and I felt like his closing statement to her was honest, even though it wasn't the whole story.

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what irritated him in the whole Garner situation was that Kara was right in all her tactical and professional decisions, but so unnecessarily abrasive in her attitude that she sabotaged herself and expected Lee to bail her out and smooth things over. I think he was already mad at her over the shooting (and maybe even over the unresolved mess from Scar), and was seriously not in the mood to do his usual diplomatic schtick. In short, I think there were a lot of issues bundled up in their fight throughout the episode, and I felt like his closing statement to her was honest, even though it wasn't the whole story.

Yes. Definetely. I couldn't agree more. :)

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ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com

As the oldest of 3 sisters, who always felt like a different standard was applied to me than my sisters (which in retrospect I may have projected on myself), these lines made complete sense to me coming from him. He was a perfectionist who arguably lived his whole life for Papadama's approval.

Every time a sister broke one of what I considered a fundamental house rule and got a slap on the wrist, I'd have the same sort of reaction as Lee. I'd do something and get the "We expect more from you" speech and what I felt was disproportionate punishment. Yeah, I lived it, so... I get it. :)

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I guess coupled with his hurt about the shooting, and her rejection in Scar, it makes sense. In and of itself, Lee has never seemed resentful of her breaking the rules. IMO, he has always just accepted it as part of who she is. With everything else, though, I guess it got to be too much. Thanks for the insights, bb.

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coffeesuperhero.livejournal.com

Word to everything in this comment. Word.

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Yes! Those lines bugged me a little too! Like they weren't the real reason!

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I think the big issue was certainly the fact she avoided him after the shooting. (Oh, Kara, for someone so brave, always ready to face danger head on, she certainly ran away a lot). He was already mad at her when he arrived, before he got to know what exactly was going on. I think that line was his way of rationalizing to himself (more than to her) what he was feeling and why. But, of course, there was some truth to it. It just wasn't the whole truth. It wasn't even the most important part of the truth, really.

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Yeah. That's a good summary of my thoughts as well. All the running away drives me crazy! Gah!

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It's hard to say how much Cain could've actually known. How thorough (and biased) were Adama's logs? (Lol and this is the point where I start feeling a little silly by talking about what fictional Adama would have written in fictional logs...etc.)

I tend to believe Cain really did see some of herself in Kara, or at least that was part of the writers' intent to show us, and not that it was wholly manipulation.

Yeah that's true. The bucking of authority and getting away scot-free no doubt pissed him off.

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Yes, I agree about Cain seeing a kindred spirit in Kara, I definitely got that impression. And I think Kara felt that connection, too -- hence her eulogy speech.

Hee! I guess fictional Adama's fictional logs can say whatever we want...

Action Stations, day 45, 2100: Upcoming vice-presidential election too boring for words. Am planning to entertain self by ordering all petty officers to write-in ballots for Socinus. Note to self: ignore son's continuing lily-livered politicking with admittedly attractive Madame President, although commend him for continued fraternal investment in Starbuck's welfare. He's asked to accompany her to Cloud 9, and suggests routine surveillance should begin in the rose gardens.

:)

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LOL! "lily-livered" "fraternal investment" HAHAHA!

Was he eating nuts when he wrote this? Funny stuff!!

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baciami2.livejournal.com

ROFLMAO

We so need a crack!fic of Papadama's logs. Pullllleze write this!

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Hilarious!

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Er...this was me. Not sure why I came up as anon.

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Hello! Yes, I figured it was you :)

P.S. -- While we're talking about acting, do you have a favorite Katee scene?

(no subject)

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callmeonetrack.livejournal.com - Date: 2010-08-13 10:40 pm (UTC) - Expand

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And although Lee did authorize it, the idea to recon the Cylon fleet alone in the Blackbird came from Kara, not Lee).

I don't think that's quite true. Sure, Kara was the one who spoke it out during the pilots briefing, whereas Lee just kept to himself and just giving her a knowing sidelook. But it seems to me, both of them had the same idea. After all, right after the meeting, Lee handed Kara some equipement for her to use in the mission (why would he already have it with him during the briefing unless he had had the same idea beforehand?). I guess he had the whole thing planned all along. He couldn't do it himself because the Pegasus CAG was intent on staying on his back. And that is why he kept so quiet during the meeting.

Of course, nobody but Lee and Kara would know that. ANd they wouldn't put it in any report. So, Cain never knew it, either. Not that it would have made any difference, in my opinion.

I think she related to Kara because she is a strong, bold, gutsy woman (and , as Taragel pointed out, she did seem to respond more to women in general). She certainly admired her success (and initiative ?)in the mission. Besides, she never realized the kind of relationship Kara had with the Adamas, and despite Lee's mutiny, I guess she assumed father and son had a closer relationship and,therefore, it would be more important to neutralize Lee than Kara.In addition, she saw the Starbuck façade and assumed she and Kara had more in common than was true -she probably thought Kara was more ambitious than she was.

In short,in spite of Kara's many qualities, promoting her served several purposes: she would help advance a strong female officer whose abilities she admired, she would be playing at said officer's pride and trying to win her over, getting a possible useful "inside" ally/spy against Adama, she would create a rift between Lee/Adama and Kara, she would weaken Lee.

As for Lee's attitude, I think they would have worked well together. Sure, he was kind of annoyed at first, but I guess it was because of everything that was going on. They had thought the arrival of the Pegasus was going to be something positive but there was already a heavy power struggle going on and he was right there in the middle. Even before his demotion, it was clear they were trying to rein him in and to humiliate him.

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Nice analysis. I had forgotten about Lee's surveillance package, so you're right, he must have been thinking along the same lines in advance, too. And I really like your observation that Cain may have overidentified with Kara in assuming she had ambitions that matched her own. Very interesting!

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ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com

I remember being surprised that Lee was a little pissy about "answering to one of his pilots" or whatever.

I took that to be more of a joke, with his actual anger directed at being demoted, but I may have rose-colored glasses on where Leland is concerned.

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Probably it was supposed to be, because it's dropped right after. I'm...not always a fan of Bamber's acting. I think he botches his delivery occasionally and moments fall a bit flatter than they're supposed to.

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ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com

I agree, although I think trying not to sound British was his main problem.

Could he have BEAN more British?!

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