Daily Pilots Post: Hey, I Know You!

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

I know you've done it.  Seen a couple in a movie or TV show or read them in a book and said, "HEY!  THAT'S LEE/KARA!"  It makes sense, in a lot of ways.  As mlsky pointed out a few weeks back over in sci_fi_shipper's Write and Gripe community, the two of them are archetypal.

With Tara, we discussed movies that you wish would be made for Katee and Jamie to act in, or could see Katee and Jamie cast in, because the parts scream for their chemistry and/or remind us so much of Kara and Lee.  I expect there will be some overlap here, but I want to hear about book (or play or other works of literature) characters that remind you of Pilots.  Maybe, for whatever reason, they'll never end up on a screen, or the casting wouldn't work if it did, but these characters scream Lee and Kara for you.

Examples:

Eve and Rourk from J.D. Robb's In Death series.  She's a feisty, broken, beautiful woman with a badly cut, dirty blond hair and hazel eyes.  He's a suave, sophisticated, wealthy, dark haired man with his own troubled past and a set of piercing blue eyes.  His accent holds a hint of Ireland, but the chemistry between them comes closer to the climate of Equador.  And they both know about kicking ass, then taking names.  I could go on, but I think you get the point.  They're Kara and Lee in NYC in 2050.  I may be off by a bit on the year.

Kat and Gail/Peeta from Suzanne Collins' Hunger Games series.  This one isn't quite as obvious, but it's close.  Kat resembles Kara in so many ways it's difficult to count, and I maintain that both Gail and Peeta have different aspects of Lee's personality.  Peeta is the idealist and Gail is the fierce hunter.  These kids are younger, and I think less broken that Kara and Lee were, but looking at them through that lens makes for an interesting study in what might have been when Pilots were younger.

Matrim Cauthon and Tuon (The Daughter of The Nine Moons) from Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series (which is being completed posthumously by Brandon Sanderson, using notes and outlines RJ made before his death, for those who were curious).  This is easily the most abstracted comparison example I'm going to use.  She's a petite, dark-skinned princess and he's a brash gambler and reluctant, if highly successful, general.  But when you dig down, you see it.  They're drawn to each other from the moment they meet.  In this case, prophesy actually throws them together and sees them married, but there's a constant push and pull and vying for dominance between them that reminds me of the dance our beloved Pilots shared.  She's aloof and critical and cold and fierce (and a shockingly good fighter), but her smiles transform her.  He's crass and irreverent, macho and insane and luckier than any one person has any business being.  Anyone else would have died pulling the stunts he pulls.  Last I saw, though, circumstances had drawn them apart again, despite their marriage.  And without even a goodbye kiss.  They aren't the main pairing in the series, but they're the one I like best.

So, where have YOU seen reincarnations of our pilots?

Comments

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Ooh Books. My favorite topic! I can't wait to see people's responses for this one.

I think I've already talked about my main two ad nauseum, which is Hunger Games' Kat/Gale (I understand how some people maybe kinda see Peeta as being somewhat Lee-like but for me it's all Gale. He totally is a younger Lee in my head.) and Rob and Cassie from Tana French's In the Woods, who are buddy cops and in some ways Rob is the broken one and Cassie is the fairly well-adjusted one, but she has a lot of Kara's sass and verve, and the way their relationship is described and eventually evolves reminds me of pilots and their fierce partnership and very messy feelings.

ETA: Another quote from In the Woods that screams Kara to me:

"I had learned early to assume something dark and lethal hidden at the heart of anything I loved. When I couldn't find it, I responded, bewildered and wary, in the only way I knew how: by planting it there myself. (307)"
— Tana French (In the Woods)


Heh my husband loves the Wheel of Time series. I'll have to ask him if he thinks those two ever remind him of Kara and Lee. Oh and you just maybe made the Eve Dallas series appeal to me for the first time ever. Maybe. Heh.

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

Another quote from In the Woods that screams Kara to me:

Wow. Yeah. Definitely Kara.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I understand how some people maybe kinda see Peeta as being somewhat Lee-like

Well, myself, I don't understand it! ;P

Oh, and that quote! Awesome. So, so very Kara (not the first time you mention "In the Woods", I really need to read it!)

[daybreak777.livejournal.com]

Wuthering Heights. I should finally do that book discussion post about Wuthering Heights comparing Kara and Lee to Cathy and Heathcliff. Maybe in May. :-) (It's been a year since I had the idea.) I think of this scene for after that New Caprican night. Maybe not right after but at some point after. Names adjusted for pilot-ness.

You teach how cruel you've been - cruel and false. Why did you despise me? Why did you betray your own heart, Kara? I have not one word of comfort - you deserve this. You have killed yourself. Yes, you may kiss me and, cry; and wring out my kisses and tears. They'll blight you - they'll damn you. You loved me - then what right had you to leave me? What right - answer me - for the poor fancy you had for Anders? Because misery, degradation, and death, and nothing that the gods or the Cylons could inflict would have parted us, you of your own will, did it. I have not broken your heart - you have broken it - and in breaking it, you have broken mine. So much the worse for me, that I am strong. Do I want to live? What kind of living will it be when you - oh, gods! Would you like to live with your soul in the grave?

Exactly. What right had she to leave him? Ah, characters at cross purposes. Gosh, I love that novel. And pilots. :-)

[owldark.livejournal.com]

OMG. I am a huge fan of Wuthering Heights. However, I had never actually thought about the comparisons between Lee & Kara before though. *flails a wee bit*

That passage is so beautiful, and I love how is speaks to to Kara & Lee's relationship. The way Kathy/Kara leave, you're right, what right did she have? POOR LEE/HEATHCLIFF.

Have you seen the BBC 'updated' version of Wuthering Heights, called Sparkhouse? Here's a link to the BBC page. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/drama/sparkhouse/) Parts of it work better than others, but the basic premise is that the gender roles are switched - so that the Heathcliff role becomes the female role - Carol - and the Cathy role is taken by the male character, Andrew. Carol, as 'Heathcliff' is really well written - and very Kara like! Passionate but fucked up and vicious and a complete mess and wonderful. <3

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

It's funny, I saw an article the other day where they were compared to Wuthering Heights but the writer insisted Kara was Heathcliff and Lee was Cathy. (Is that what you were thinking? Hee.)

I have never actually read WH, so I know nothing!

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Wow... That really works. I've never managed to make it far into or through that type of literature (Austen, the Brontes, et al). I like your edits. :)

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Oh, yeah, I remember you intended to make that Wuthering Heights post, I can't wait for it! I definitely see the parallels between Cathy/Heathcliff and Lee/Kara, but I always saw the latter as a healthier version. I mean, C and H were too hardcore, they ended up hurting each other (and everbody that got in their way) too much... I always struggled with how unsympathetic they were. Also, I honestly could never envision a happily after for them, too much hurt and misplaced hate between them, I always saw their relationhip kinda of irredeemable...

However, Lee and Kara... I always hoped for them. Despite all the pain they inflicted to each other, there was always a sense of hopefulness and rightness about them I never felt with Cathy and Heathcliff.

[lyras.livejournal.com]

Ooh, Mat and Tuon - what an interesting comparison. It's funny that Mat is my least favourite of the main three male characters: I hate arrogance in men. But if you put a lot of his qualities into a woman's body and call her Starbuck, it turns out I love her!

I'll have to look into the Hunger Games books.

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

But if you put a lot of his qualities into a woman's body and call her Starbuck, it turns out I love her!

Right?! It's total gender-reversal, but the parallels are amazing.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I totally fail at remembering anything, but I wanted to stop by and say Hi! This is a very interesting post and I can't wait to come back later and see what others are recommending.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Great suggestions, all.

And of course, who can forget Pride & Prejudice? *g*

[nazkey.livejournal.com]

Totally! Is there fic out there with BSG/P&P cross-over?

[thegreenkitty.livejournal.com]

Yes, deffo P+P. My problem is I've been trying all day to think of other places in literature for K/L and I just keep coming back to Elizabeth and Darcy. My brain is frozen. :P

Also, I don't remember who wrote the fic where Lee gives them the callsign "Apollo" and "Starbuck" after a "Lady and the Tramp" type kids' book, but I like that too. (Of course Lee is the Lady and Kara is the Tramp...hee!)

[innibis.livejournal.com]

I see a lot of them (and Zak) in East of Eden in the Caleb Trask/Aron Trask/Abra Bacon sort-of-triangle. I think I've talked about this before - probably with Bee.

East of Eden isn't a romance, it's a story that parallels the fall of man with the theme of timshel (free will) vs. the sins of the fathers. Caleb and Aron Trask are the Cain and Abel set up, so the focus is mostly on their relationship, but Abra falls in love with Aron (Zak) first. Aron is the favored son and is literaly too good for this world. (he enlists because of Caleb - much too long to go into.) When Aron leaves, Abra finds herself falling in love with the heavily flawed and struggling Caleb.

Caleb and Abra share a love for Aron and a father figure. There are mother issues, Caleb is, literally, the son of a murderous whore. Their love is tangled with guilt and questions about fate and overcoming the sins of the past, but they begin to rise above it as they embrace their identities of individuals, and their legacy of Free Will (something that BSG obviously didn't let happen at the end.) You don't have a tied with a bow ending for them, but the love is there and the will is there, so you are given to understand that, as with all else, Caleb and Abra making it will be entirely their choice.

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

Oh, interesting! **makes an addition to her to-read list**

I kinda like that the book isn't actually a romance, too. It's interesting to see these kinds of relationships set secondary to the larger story.

[owldark.livejournal.com]

Oooh! Oooh! I thought of one! Rhett & Scarlett from Gone With The Wind totally have a K/L vibe!

I mean, it isn't a perfect match... because I think Kara kinda has parts of both Scarlett & Rhett in her. But the gambling and the fighting and they lying and the denial and the snark and the hot sex. ALL FIT.

Sam is totally Ashley.

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

Ha! I love it!

I've actually never read the book, only seen the movie. I really should fix that.

[dipsas.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, yes, Sam is so very Ashley! Does all the right things (resistance etc), and seems to be the one the girl should want... ...except he's all wrong! And I think there's some Rhett in Lee too, because in a sense, they both want to conform and are always aware when they break the rules of society, whether that's of 19th C protocol or service regs, so to speak.

One thing that doesn't fit though must be the absence of dresses! Scarlet in a drop-dead dress is not a once in a lifetime opportunity! :)

[coffeesuperhero.livejournal.com]

Do plays count as legit for this question? If so, then: Beatrice & Benedick from Much Ado. I think it's the two-independent-and-headstrong-people-fall-in-love thing more than the star-crossed-lovers thing, but... "I do love nothing in the world so well as you-- is not that strange?" and THE BANTER, DEAR GOD, THE BANTER.

(No, I wasn't thinking of doing a Shakespearean thing for one of my DPP's, why do you ask? :O )

[stripes13.livejournal.com]

OMG THE BANTER!!! IT AWAMZES ME!!!!!!

I was literally just about to suggest them!!!

As much as I'm not a fan of the film version of this play (who casts Keanu as a Shakespearean baddie....really?)...Emma Thompson and Kenneth Branagh bring the banter so well :D

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

There are some very obvious parallels to John Crichton and Aeryn Sun from "Farscape" (Aeryn is a warrior whose responsible for the death of her first lover; John is very principled, until he goes crazy :P) (There are lots of differences too, not least in that John and Aeryn got a great and satisfactory ending, but that's another story.)

Anyway, the following conversation from "Farscape" always informed my read on Lee post-New Caprica (i.e. why he didn't jump at Kara's offer to leave Sam.)

Aeryn: I think I've earned your trust.
John: I would put my life in your hands, but not my heart.

*SNIFFLE*

ETA: QoT FAILS @ reading posts :P you specifically said books, not TV or movies and ... um ... yeah.

OK, so now let me think of books that remind me of Kara and Lee ... The Hunger Games (though I see much more Lee in Peeta than in Gale, but that's just me!) and ... errr ... hrrrrrm ... I guess I'm not reading the right books, because I seriously cannot think of any others right now.

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

I haven't gotten far enough into Farscape yet to see more than passing glimpses of Lee/Kara in John/Aeryn. The promise of it is keeping me entangled, though.

I guess I'm not reading the right books, because I seriously cannot think of any others right now.

Or you don't have quite such beer-bottle-prescription shipper glasses on at the moment. I'll admit to being a little obsessive and maybe seeing things that aren't necessarily there. **blush**

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

Nothing comes to mind but the whole Wuthering Heights. I just watched the old version a few weeks ago and they do remind me of pilots.

Great topic!!

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

So cool that you mentioned "The Wheel of Time", Jen! I used to be a big fan of te series until I grew jaded (I read until book 9, I guess). I remember I met Tuon, but briefly, and never read how Jordan developed Mat and Tuon's relationship --even though I found their dynamic appealing from the start.

And given that you have brought up TWOT... I really liked the push and pull relationhip between Rand and Aviendha --kinda a la Kara/Lee--, when they first met and he spent all that time with the Aiel (that is, before he fell in love with 3 women and they agreed to share him! **facepalm** I think I couldn't get over that! ;P).

(and this is completely off topic, but I'd love to know... Have you read the whole series? Is it worth it? Since I read so many of these books I always thought that I'd try to finish the series if the ending was an acceptable one).

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

Soooo with you on the three women and all the fawning that happens. Ick. I mean, different cultures, different traditions, open mind, etc. But... The starry-eyed fawning. That's what I can't get past.

Anyways!

(and this is completely off topic, but I'd love to know... Have you read the whole series? Is it worth it? Since I read so many of these books I always thought that I'd try to finish the series if the ending was an acceptable one).

The series isn't done yet. Book 12 came out last fall, 13 is planned for this fall, and 14 is scheduled for the fall after that (so 2011). I have read through book 12, and I really think that the writing is better than it had been for the last 4 or 5 books. I think there was more editing happening, the story was tighter and there was less repetition going on. I'm going to finish it, because I'm curious to see how certain threads are wrapped up. Do I recommend it? Right now, I'd say yes, if you can get through the way Rand's harem treats/reacts to him. Matt's story line is interesting, Egwene's is fascinating and awesome (she even gets righteously angry when a bunch of people save her in this last book, and is shutting a few people out, including the guy she's head-over-heels about, because they seriously betrayed her trust -- YAY! A female character actually THINKING about what she's going to do about a relationship instead of just falling into it! It's refreshing in this book, I tell you.)

Okay, long-winded way to say... Overall I don't think that it really is worth putting all that time into right now if you're going to be reading the whole series from the beginning. It isn't something I'd recommend to people. Maybe, maybe if there's a really fabulous payoff in the end, but I'm not sure I'm feeling it right now. There are just a lot of cliches and... Ugh. But if you're familiar with/remember most of the plot and want to find out what happens, I think it's worth the effort to find a synopsis of books 10 and 11 to get you caught up and then read 12. Because like I said, 12 is a lot better written than the last few were.

ETA: WOW! Confusing, stream-of-consciousness post, much there Jen? Okay. Sorry. The actual answer is the last paragraph before this. A conditional Yes. I reserve the right to revise this statement if that last two books are fabulous.

[sarmoti.livejournal.com]

Obviously Kara is Bella and Lee is Jacob....LOL, SORRY I COULDN'T RESIST.

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

Hee! Twilight. I think I'll take your word on that one. :)

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit late to the party, but this just occurred to me. You guys, Lyra and Will from His Dark Materials! Okay, so their stories are quite different. And they're thirteen. But Lyra's got the total Starbuck attitude, and the volatile temper. Will's more serious, a thinker, but he's also extremely dangerous when pushed. Sound familiar?

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

Ooo, nice.

It's not always obvious, is it? It just kind of occurs to you sometimes that, hey, this couple that's really very dissimilar from Pilots reminds me of them actually quite a lot. Very neat.