No Takebacks

A whole day of Lee Adama meta? It's like Christmas in July! :)

Dramaturgca has an interesting take on Lee, and in some ways I agree that he grew more morally ambiguous over time, but in many ways I think he started more flexible than people sometimes give him credit for. I don't see Lee as naive, even in the miniseries. He was one of the first to comment on the fact that their world didn't make sense and to try to analyze its complexities -- in the very first episode he shoots down a passenger ship full of civilians; in the second episode he tells his father that as leaders they have the obligation to question their own decisions and proceeds to do so; and in the third episode he blackmails a terrorist into cooperating with the fleet and flat-out refuses to pick sides between the military and civilian authorities even when pressured to do so.

Usually black-and-white moralism is all about picking one side and demonizing the other. Lee doesn't do that even when he does pick sides. I love that he mutinies on the President's behalf with the following not-so-inspiring statement: "We can't afford to give up our democracy just because the President made a bad decision." In other words, he thinks his father and Roslin are *both* wrong, but his father is more dangerously wrong, hence his switch in allegiance. This is complex and rather brutally honest -- he picks the lesser evil and puts his life on the line for it.

The only area of life in which I consistently see black-and-white moralism from Lee is in his attitude toward Cylons, and that takes a *really* long time to change (it takes an absolutely desperate gratitude for Kara's life to make him admit that he would want her back even if she were a Cylon, and even after that his personal issues with the Final Five come out in small ways even in the midst of mutiny, well after he has proven willing to bargain with them politically).

In general, he looks for the middle road - he always has, and I don't think he ever loses that tendency. It's that spirit of compromise that allows him to forge an alliance with the Cylons he despises in "Revelations," or to remind a courtroom full of judges that if the law were to be their standard, every single one of them would be spending the rest of their lives behind bars.

I think one of the most impressive things about Lee is that his awareness of complexity and ambiguity does not remotely cause him to give up on the idea that moral principles are worth enforcing and defending. He *searches* for the right course of action -- what is just here? -- in any given situation rather than assuming that one answer fits every scenario. And past failures in himself and others don't simply disillusion him, they actually make him more compassionate. His speech in Crossroads Two is basically a variation on Shakespeare's famous argument that "the quality of mercy" is necessary in all human endeavors, because without it "none of us should see salvation."

Lee is often called judgmental, and at times he is. But I think that quality flows less from his strong sense of right and wrong, or from any inability to accept ambiguity, than from blind emotion. Two of his most judgmental moments -- screaming at his father over Zak in the miniseries, and raking Kara over the coals for her liaison with Baltar -- are clearly not flowing from his conscience so much as from his wounded heart. But it's amazing how forgiving he can be when he feels that the offender is or was acting out of love.

His grudges almost always flow from insecurity. He hated his father for what happened to Zak because he thought his Dad was trying to remake both sons in his own image because he didn't know or love them enough to care about who they really were as people. Once he finds out that Kara is really to blame for a decision she made out of misguided love, he never speaks one word of reproach to her about his brother. His reaction to his father and Kara re:Zak was as different as night from day, and I think it came down to his (somewhat unfair) conviction that his Dad's mistake hadn't grown out of love, while Kara's had.

OK, I need to stop talking now :)

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The only area of life in which I consistently see black-and-white moralism from Lee is in his attitude toward Cylons, and that takes a *really* long time to change (it takes an absolutely desperate gratitude for Kara's life to make him admit that he would want her back even if she were a Cylon, and even after that his personal issues with the Final Five come out in small ways even in the midst of mutiny, well after he has proven willing to bargain with them politically).

This is very interesting and something that I was thinking about when I re-watched A Measure of Salvation. I remember being struck by Lee's hatred for the cylons and his willingness to commit genocide. It still bothers me and I'm just not sure I buy the way they wrote him in that episode. I think Helo was given Lee's speech to liven up the plot and avoid Lee being the one who openly defied orders and sabotaged the plan. My feeling is that the writers decided it was easier to have Lee hate the cylons than to have him sabotage a plan to kill them all. I think they got it backwards.

Interesting, too, the idea that maybe Lee gave in to the cylons because they gave him Kara back. His question to Adama about "what if Zak came back as a cylon" finally shows his shift in thinking about cylons. I love that scene in the show, and again, it is Lee who seems to direct the moral center of the show - Lee is the one who ultimately makes the alliance. It's powerful stuff.

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"Interesting, too, the idea that maybe Lee gave in to the cylons because they gave him Kara back."

I don't think that was what he meant. I think he loved Kara (and Zac) so much, it was impossible for him not to see them as individuals even if they turned out to be cylons. His love for them would make him realize he would accept them no matter what. He always forgave them their flaws (he could never say no to her, right?) and being a cylon wouldn't change that.

I do think he was confronted with that possibilty for the first time and that played a part in his coming to accept cylons as more than simply machines. Truth be told, he (and most humans for that matter) never had any real contact with cylons except for fighting them. The few ones that were discovered hiding in the fleet did nothing to dispell the distrust towards cylons, quite the opposite , in fact. And we know, Lee found it very hard to trust Sharon. The possibility that Kara was a cylon really made him think about it.

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Yeah, I was definitely going for the second paragraph of your response - that after Kara came back, there was more ambiguity in his view of cylons - that it didn't matter so much if they were cylons or humans if he loved them.

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Yeah, Lee and Cylons are always an interesting combination. They do bring out a scary side of him, because he sees them as machines and nothing more. His disgust for Sharon in "Home" is really our first hint at his attitude, which seems to be a fairly uncompromising 'they aren't people and we shouldn't be suckered into treating them like people' stance. He was about to shoot her in the head at two different points in "Home" (this from Lee 'Everyone Deserves a Fair Trial' Adama), and in "Home Part Two" he held people off at gunpoint to give his Dad a chance to throttle her. So I'm not sure that his stance in "A Measure of Salvation" was really out of character (though genocide is a bigger decision than personal vengeance), but it was definitely extremely disturbing.

The commentary on that episode is interesting, because Ron Moore mentions that there was a whole storyline they had planned for Lee in the first half of third season which they dropped, and "A Measure of Salvation" was really the only remnant of it. The storyline was that he and Dee were going to enter the Marines together (that's how they planned for him to lose the weight) and sort of go through a boot camp which would have the psychological effect of hardening Lee and making him a more committed and uncompromising soldier. So "A Measure of Salvation" was meant to indicate a new immersion into the military frame of mind and a new ruthlessness on his part. But they dropped the storyline, and later they obviously took Lee in other directions which fit in better with his established character, which does make his ruthlessness in that one episode look a bit bizarrely extreme for him.

I'm personally delighted that they dropped that storyline. That is in no way where I wanted Lee to go as a character. And I loved the very different voice they gave him, a voice that was true to himself and his "moral center" role, in the Season 3 finale. So hurrah for the cutting room floor, on that one.

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I didn't know they had ever thought of doing that. I'm sooooo glad they didn't. Despite everything, I think Lee's characterization was one that was pretty consistent throught the series. I could never imagine him letting go of his sense of justice and his ideals because of any sort of training. They would have to brainwash him! I think the decision to move him towards politcs made much more sense, even if I truly missed "Captain Apollo" and I think the way the decided to do it was not the best one.

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I am also glad they didn't make him "harder" and more hating of the cylons. It is interesting to imagine, however, and I might have also loved a more alpha!lee. I have problems with his decision to leave Galactica even though Kara returned, but I guess those are more shipper problems than storyline problems.

I like that he took a stand and decided to do his own thing. Some of my personal canons is that, in part, he made his final decision to leave the military because Kara was no longer alive. As long as Kara was in the military, my romanticized view tells me that he stayed, too. Once she was gone, he seemed much freer to do what his heart and mind told him to do. He was acutely vulnerable when he encountered Romo Lampkin and I think the idea of having a new sense of purpose filled him with something that had been long missing. With Kara gone, there was really no reason to stay in uniform.

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I think that Kara's death did set him reeling, and that in the aftermath he found it almost impossible to continue on with his life as if nothing had changed. In part I think he threw himself into the trial because he was trying so hard to find a way to move forward and figure out how to be himself again in the face of this loss.

You mentioned elsewhere that you thought that the writers handled the end of the Lee/Dee relationship badly here, because she'd always seemed to understand him fairly well and it didn't make much sense that she would leave him over his role in the trial. I agree that it was handled badly in that it got about two seconds of screen time, but I actually thought that this was one of the best non-Kara-related conflicts that Lee and Dee could have had and I wish they had developped it into a real scene. Because at the end of the day, I think Lee and Dee missed certain fundamental aspects of each others' characters from day one (Lee more than Dee, I think, because he never seemed to focus much attention on her). I think Dee understood certain private things about Lee -- his loneliness, his feelings for Kara, his courage in facing impossible odds and finding a way to succeed. But she was under the misapprehension that he was a lot more like his father than he really was, I think, and I expect that it came as a shock to her that he would actually leave the military. I don't think she ever realized that he'd always felt like his military career and persona were poor fits for the passionately questioning side of his personality. In most of her speeches of support, she talks to him as if he's genuinely 'Apollo.'

And as for Dee, I am 100% sure that Lee had no idea that she'd willingly played the key role in stealing the last election to prevent Baltar from becoming President. She was absolutely of the opinion that if democracy got bad results then it should be ignored and fixed behind the scenes. From this alone I would have bet serious money that marrying Lee would eventually lead to some serious conflicts in moral perspective. That they would erupt over Baltar makes sense, given her earlier actions. Even her single line of explanation: "The system elected that man, and now it's trying to get him off, and it's not a system that deserves to be respected," gets straight to the heart of their disagreement. Dee's heart lies with the military and she isn't interested in defending civil codes and civil rights -- she cares more for results than for methods, and perhaps her experience as a Sagitarron gave her a deep-rooted cynicism about politics. In any case, she can't understand or respect what Lee is doing, and she can't understand that to him it's vitally important to look not only at what is being done but *how* and *why* it's being done.

Sorry for the digression, but I am always glad when plausible reasons for a Lee/Dee break-up present themselves, and I always felt that their views on democracy/the military/justice were potentially rich veins of conflict that were never properly explored.

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I agree that it was somewhat refreshing to see Lee/Dee have a non-Kara related conflict. And, yes I also saw the set up coming there, but it was very loosely threaded. That said, it frustrates me that after everything that happened with Lee and Kara, it would be the philosophical issues that broke them up. Maybe it was how it was handled by the writers/editors, but there's something off about how she just dumps him. Cheat on her and it's fine. Have a moral difference and it's divorce? That does not ring true for me. And then much later, the two of them go on a date as if his presidency no longer posed a problem for her. (I will grant that she was influenced by suicidal intent at that time, but I don't want to get into a rant about Dee's suicide RIGHT AFTER A DATE WITH LEE. -okay a little ranty-)

I agree with your assessment that she saw more of Adama/Apollo in Lee than Lee possessed. It seems strange that Lee would not have told her about his disillusionment with the military. They had a lot of time together on Pegasus - what the heck did they talk about? LOL!

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what the heck did they talk about? LOL!

Hee! Not much, apparently.

Cheat on her and it's fine. Have a moral difference and it's divorce? That does not ring true for me.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with you on that one. Maybe it was because she'd seen the Kara thing coming even before she agreed to marry him (*how much do I hate that scene? Let me count the ways...*) but this conflict came as a surprise, just when she'd let her guard down and finally thought it would be smooth sailing from here on out? That's the best justification I can come up with, but I think your initial diagnosis of writer!fail is sounding better and better. Sigh.

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"But she was under the misapprehension that he was a lot more like his father than he really was"

I couldn't agree more.

", I think, and I expect that it came as a shock to her that he would actually leave the military."

Well... we certainly know Lee more than she ever did (LOL) and it was a shock, so... I think we should cut her some slack her. hee

"I don't think she ever realized that he'd always felt like his military career and persona were poor fits for the passionately questioning side of his personality."

That is quite possible. As you said her "heart lies with the military" much more than his. I'd add that she idolized Adama much more than Lee, as well. However, I think she knew of his frustration and eventual disillusionment ( I mean, how could she not?) but she never thought it would go that far.

I guess a big problem is lots of marriages is that people delude themselves and try to conveniently ignore the aspects of their partner's personalities that they dislike or can't accept and then they delude themselves again believing the other person is going to change in the future. Perhaps that's what happened with her. She admired his Apollo persona but there were parts of his personality she couldn't accept but in her desire to have him ( or to settle), she chose to ignore those things and believe he would change (even that she might help him change) and that he would reach his full potential - becoming more and more similar to his father. When it became clear that wouldn't happen , she left.

Of course, all this is pure especulation since we never saw any glimpses of that. All in all, I think writers fail is , yet again, the best explanation.

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Oh, Rachel,

I think you have made fall in love with Lee all over again. I really miss him. *sighs*

He has always been my favorite character in BSG. I agree with you 110% here. In fact, you could have read my mind when you wrote this - only you expressed it so much better than I ever could...

I think the real important thing is that Lee may have been the "moral center of the show, the conscience if you will", as Dramaturgca quoted, but that doesn't mean he was either perfect nor radically judgemental. He truly tried to be fair and do what is right , and that fundamental part of his personality did not chance throughout the whole series (that is something the writers were pretty consistent about). There were of course moments when he failed to do both but that only showed he was human. You really nailed it, in my opinion, when you pointed out those were times when he was moved by strong emotions.

As any human being, he had his onw emotional burdens and scars and those affected his actions to a degree. His compassionate nature always prevailed in the end, though. That is what happened in Scar, for instance. After the failed attempt at sex with Kara, they exchanged harsh words. He was clearly hurt by her "There is nothing here" and his "dead guys" line, though true to an extent, was unnecessarily hurtful. We might expect him to be awful to Kara afterwards, but that didn't happen . Instead, he supported her at the end of the episode. Lovely scene, by the way.

I never thought his suggestion of exterminating the cylons by using biological warfare was out of character or a sign that his moral lines became more flexible over the course of the show. First, because of his attitude towards cylons. He simply didn't see them as life forms but as machines. Therefore, it wouldn't be really genocide. Second, because he had put pragmatism over idealism early on in the series when he accepted the order to shoot down the Olympic Carrier. The needs of the many prevail over the needs of the few. And if those few were not even people to begin with... (and even then, that didn't mean the decision was lightly taken, he struggled with it till the end, but sometimes, you just have to do what you have to do).

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Ha ha! Once again I have wound up cross-posting ideas that are quite similar to yours on the question of Lee's attitude to Cylons. Jinx!

I agree that Lee's support of genocide was a believable flaw for the character in light of his "they're just machines" attitude (and actually you might not consider this a moral failing, though I do). But I do think he was uncharacteristically unwilling to hear out opposing points of view in that episode, which I believe was a deliberate choice on the writers' part.

I love him so much in "Scar," I can't even tell you :) I agree that the "dead guy" comment was both honest and unnecessarily hurtful, and I'm not sure I've ever loved Lee more than in his very next scene with Kara, when she can hardly look him in the face and is obviously expecting pay-back for her rejection and he just says, "Are you okay?" THIS is why I was rooting for them. They can be so generous with each other, it's really beautiful.

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That scene in Scar is one of my favorite pilot moments, where Lee lets go of his own hurt to make sure Kara is okay. I love it. *runs to rewatch*

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"actually you might not consider this a moral failing, though I do"

In the context of the show, I don't see it a moral failing, no.

Let me be absolutely clear, I don't think genocide is an acceptable solution to war or any kind of dispute at all. I'm truly a pacifist and I believe there is nothing war can achieve that couldn't be better achieved without it. All cases of genocide we have had in history are abominable and are a shame to all manking. Whether we are talking of conventional war or terrorist attacks, war itself is just stupid. To quote Gandhi "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?"

The idea of exterminating a whole population because of their religion, or race, or origin, or political views or whatever is not an example of moral failing , it is an abhorrent crime.

However, I don't think the situation humanity was facing in the show can be compared. If they had gone through with their plans they wouldn't have done it out of hatred or prejudice or even to win a war (justified or not - as far as wars can be justified). They were talking about the very survival of their species. They were talking about a situation where humanity had suffered an unannouced attack that had killed not thousands or millions , but billions of people. The sole survivals were being hunted down and, realistically speaking, had no chance of surviving at all in the long run. They had no way of effectively defeating the cylons and making them abandon the war. How long could they continue to run before they ran out of food, water, fuel, medicine? If the cylons didn't destroy them in one single attack, their numbers would continue to decrease until there was nobody left. In that context, if the only way to survive against an enemy that was not willing to negotiate, or allow escape, or offer any sort of peace treaty, if the only way was to completely destroy your enemy, would that be such a crime? Such a moral flaw? I'm not so sure. It does sound noble. But is it realistic?

Everybody agrees that murder is a crime and should be severely punished. However, killing someone in self-defense is not considered a crime. I think they had reached a point where the situation was so hopeless it could be compared to a self-defense killing.

We remember how disappointed and disillusioned Lee was when his father and the president decided to assassinate Cain for the better good. It wasn't the idea of killing someone (even in cold blood) that shocked Lee so much. Rather it was the fact that they hadn't reached a point where there was no other way to deal with disagreement. It was sort of a preemptive attack. I loved that Adama decided not to go through it it. His line about not being enough to survive (one has to be worthy of surviving) is one of my favorite one in the whole series. After all, what hope did humanity have if they could take each other's lives so easily?

There was nothing easy about the situation they were facing when they considered the "genocide" approach, though.

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Yes, I think the genocide question in the context of the show is an interesting and debatable one, though of course I agree that in real life it is a horrendous crime and I certainly never ever in any way meant to imply that you or anyone might approve of that. I only meant that in the show it might not seem like Lee's advocacy of biological warfare to wipe out the Cylons was morally incorrect, although I personally thought that it was.

In the show, the big questions seem to be 1) are Cylons just machines simulating life, or do they possess sentience which qualifies them as rights-bearing individuals? 2) can the self-defense of one people justify the extermination of another? and 3) in a race of clones, is there anyone who qualifies as a non-combatant or civilian?

To give my own perspective on these questions, I would say: 1) the Cylons are clearly sentient and they seem to have free will (to the extent that anyone does in the BSG universe) which makes them rights-bearing individuals who are responsible for their actions, in my book. For this reason, I disapprove of the torture and execution without trial that is generally their lot when they fall into the hands of the Colonial Fleet. I'm not saying that they are innocent, far from it, but even murderers deserve trials, and I don't think torture is ever justified although I certainly understand the pressures involved when it seems like innocent lives might be at stake. 2) This second question is basically the Mutual Assured Destruction question, and I don't pretend that there is any easy answer. I personally feel that it is wrong to deliberately kill large numbers of enemy civilians even in order to protect one's own population from destruction. But I'm sure many out there would disagree with me. 3) The trickiest question, given the context of the show, is whether there are any innocent people/civilians among the Cylons, or whether every single copy is actively engaged in the genocidal campaign being carried out by the ones we see chasing the Colonial fleet? The problem with biological weapons is that they don't discriminate between citizens and soliders, adults and children, etc. Helo believes that there are those among the Cylons who cannot be held responsible for their leaders' war, taking his wife as an example. For that reason, he opposes the use of non-discriminatory, totalizing weapons. I tend to give Helo and Athena and the Cylon race the benefit of the doubt on this, especially given the divisions we see developing later on in their society. For that reason, I think Helo made the right choice, though it was also a tremendously risky one.

But certainly feel free to disagree :)

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I think you make a very strong argument and if it weren't for the fact that the human race was on the verge of iminent extinction, I'd totally agree with you on all counts. That and your number 1 point . We knew the cylons were sentient beings with free will, but it certainly took the humans on the show a long time to really realize that.

Anyway, one of the things I loved about BSG (besides Lee, Kara, L/K and Adama, of course)is that they dealt with so many difficult issues. Issues that need to be discussed more often.

Thank God, we don't have to deal with them in RL.

Disagreeing with you is as much fun as agreeing ever is. I really love your analytical, logical brain.

*hugs*

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* hugs back *

I feel the same way! I learn a lot from your comments, and always enjoy discussing things together. Heaven knows these are really complicated issues; I definitely prefer to deal with them in fictional form :)

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Ah, Lee.... My favorite character by far of any show/movie - ever. *sighs*

I remember watching the show and feeling incredibly connected to Lee's struggle to do the right thing under unspeakable circumstances. Time and time again, he is thrust into situations where weaker, more morally ambiguous men and women might falter. One of the things I love about him is his bravery - not in the face of physical injury, but his bravery to do what he feels is morally appropriate. Yes, at times, he does this because of *his* judgments about right and wrong. But, in the end, I think that's all anyone has - to make a set of judgments about a situation and to choose an action that falls in line with those judgments. His judgments make sense to me most of the time and fit in line with many of my own beliefs about right and wrong. So, for intensely personal reasons, his character speaks to me.

I also remember that he was the center of the show for me, followed by Adama, then Kara. (Recently, fandom has shifted my perspective and I am now much more focused on the ship than Lee himself. That said, it's nice to consider Lee as a character again.) I always felt that Lee and Adama were very morally grounded, although Adama's decisions were often made with a nod to his military training while Lee's were based on his personal set of beliefs and often against the mores of the military.

In thinking back, I remember being struck by Lee's loneliness. I know he never really made with the puppydog eyes or acknowledged his loneliness, but aside from Dee, I don't think he really ever spoke to anyone about his feelings. Even Kara, whom he loved, never really got to know how he ticked on some levels. Thinking about it now, it reminds me how much I dislike that Dee left Lee because he decided to defend Baltar. I imagine better from her (WRITER!FAIL) because she alone had an opportunity to really understand him. In my mind, she did - but on the show - not so much. Funny, though, that Kara seemed to understand his moral side a bit more clearly than Dee and never seemed to find it strange that he defended Baltar (although who knows since they were separated at the time and forever).

But I digress. I am attracted to Lee's passionate beliefs because they are tempered with thoughtfulness and sensitivity. Yes, he rages about right and wrong, but he always takes personal responsibility for his own flaws. He rarely points the finger at someone else without first pointing it at himself. (There are exceptions, of course, because he is also wonderfully flawed). I respond to passionate people who know what the believe and don't falter. I feel drawn to Lee's own struggle to think about right and wrong and admire his ability to use rationality over emotion.

In general, I have a hard time with morally ambiguous characters. While I might enjoy their antics, they are not people I'd probably be too comfortable being around. Lee gives me a sense that despite all of the horribleness in the BSG-verse, he will always be the same. I'm guessing there's a lot of arguable territory with that statement, given the writer!fail in S4, but even as his character changed from pilot to prez, I think he was able to maintain his moral center. That was enough for me.

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"I also remember that he was the center of the show for me, followed by Adama, then Kara. "

Me too!!!!

"His judgments make sense to me most of the time and fit in line with many of my own beliefs about right and wrong. "

That's it.
Everybody acts according to their own code of values and sees the world (and "judges" it) based on these lenses. It is inevitable. I just happen to agree with him a lot. And I admire that stood up for what he believed. And he struggled to live up to his own ideas of right and wrong. Of course, he didn't always succeed, but what makes someone remarkable is not the things or characteristics they are born with but what they decide to do it. The journey you decide to take with life. Not so much where you started from or where you get to in the end.

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I feel about Lee much the same as you and damao2010 do, and I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on him. I feel like I instictively "get" Lee a lot of the time, and I often agree with him, and even when I don't agree I admire him for being thoughtful and ethically serious and willing to face his own mistakes and question himself and others. And I'm proud of him when he takes an honest stand for the things he has come to believe in, especially when he knows that decision will make him unpopular.

*And* I love the lines he draws when he opposes a person for the sake of a principle. He will protect Roslin from his father's coup, but he won't go so far as to publically denounce the Commander to the wider fleet. He will resign his commission, but he won't testify about a private conversation that would discredit his father in court. He will oppose Roslin's draconian legislation, but privately plead with her to win over the Quorum before she faces a vote of no confidence.

I like the way he can oppose people while remaining loyal to them in the ways that really matter. I love the moment right before he leads the Roslin jail-break, when he visits his Dad for the last time in sickbay. He rests his hand on his father's pillow - not touching, but so close - and says "I'm sure you won't approve. I guess that's nothing new. But I just want you to know, this isn't about you and me."

To me, moments like that are a big part of what make him so complicated and so appealing.

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He rests his hand on his father's pillow - not touching, but so close - and says "I'm sure you won't approve. I guess that's nothing new. But I just want you to know, this isn't about you and me."

I had forgotten about that moment. Thank you for reminding me. I love him so much. Squeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

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Your icon in this comment totally makes me squee!! Thank you for sharing the Adama love :)

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