Daily Pilots Post

[dramaturgca.livejournal.com]

Thank you all for your comments on crossovers. It definitely made me think.

For today, we turn to meta. When I say meta, I mean the broadest possible definition of the word. Academic thoughts, thought provoking character analysis, unstructured commentary, whatever thinky thoughts you've got about Lee "Apollo" Adama.

For me, Lee has seemed to be the character with the most complete arc in the series. He starts off somewhat naive, alienated from his father, with very clearly defined standards of right and wrong. By the end, he's a deeply complex character who has learned how to fit into a world that makes no sense. RDM described Lee at least once as the moral center of the show, the conscience if you will. While he always maintained a belief in "right", his idea of what constituted right seemed to flex and expand (witness his reaction to the contaminated basestar). For me, I have felt that Lee's ending in Daybreak is at least in part because he became such a complex and human character that the writers didn't have a good way to conclude his character arc.

What do you think? What's fascinating about Lee Adama as a character?

[Preview: Yes, tomorrow will be Kara meta. Feel free to start thinking about it!]

Comments

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Oh, Rachel,

I think you have made fall in love with Lee all over again. I really miss him. *sighs*

He has always been my favorite character in BSG. I agree with you 110% here. In fact, you could have read my mind when you wrote this - only you expressed it so much better than I ever could...

I think the real important thing is that Lee may have been the "moral center of the show, the conscience if you will", as Dramaturgca quoted, but that doesn't mean he was either perfect nor radically judgemental. He truly tried to be fair and do what is right , and that fundamental part of his personality did not chance throughout the whole series (that is something the writers were pretty consistent about). There were of course moments when he failed to do both but that only showed he was human. You really nailed it, in my opinion, when you pointed out those were times when he was moved by strong emotions.

As any human being, he had his onw emotional burdens and scars and those affected his actions to a degree. His compassionate nature always prevailed in the end, though. That is what happened in Scar, for instance. After the failed attempt at sex with Kara, they exchanged harsh words. He was clearly hurt by her "There is nothing here" and his "dead guys" line, though true to an extent, was unnecessarily hurtful. We might expect him to be awful to Kara afterwards, but that didn't happen . Instead, he supported her at the end of the episode. Lovely scene, by the way.

I never thought his suggestion of exterminating the cylons by using biological warfare was out of character or a sign that his moral lines became more flexible over the course of the show. First, because of his attitude towards cylons. He simply didn't see them as life forms but as machines. Therefore, it wouldn't be really genocide. Second, because he had put pragmatism over idealism early on in the series when he accepted the order to shoot down the Olympic Carrier. The needs of the many prevail over the needs of the few. And if those few were not even people to begin with... (and even then, that didn't mean the decision was lightly taken, he struggled with it till the end, but sometimes, you just have to do what you have to do).

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Ha ha! Once again I have wound up cross-posting ideas that are quite similar to yours on the question of Lee's attitude to Cylons. Jinx!

I agree that Lee's support of genocide was a believable flaw for the character in light of his "they're just machines" attitude (and actually you might not consider this a moral failing, though I do). But I do think he was uncharacteristically unwilling to hear out opposing points of view in that episode, which I believe was a deliberate choice on the writers' part.

I love him so much in "Scar," I can't even tell you :) I agree that the "dead guy" comment was both honest and unnecessarily hurtful, and I'm not sure I've ever loved Lee more than in his very next scene with Kara, when she can hardly look him in the face and is obviously expecting pay-back for her rejection and he just says, "Are you okay?" THIS is why I was rooting for them. They can be so generous with each other, it's really beautiful.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

That scene in Scar is one of my favorite pilot moments, where Lee lets go of his own hurt to make sure Kara is okay. I love it. *runs to rewatch*

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"actually you might not consider this a moral failing, though I do"

In the context of the show, I don't see it a moral failing, no.

Let me be absolutely clear, I don't think genocide is an acceptable solution to war or any kind of dispute at all. I'm truly a pacifist and I believe there is nothing war can achieve that couldn't be better achieved without it. All cases of genocide we have had in history are abominable and are a shame to all manking. Whether we are talking of conventional war or terrorist attacks, war itself is just stupid. To quote Gandhi "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?"

The idea of exterminating a whole population because of their religion, or race, or origin, or political views or whatever is not an example of moral failing , it is an abhorrent crime.

However, I don't think the situation humanity was facing in the show can be compared. If they had gone through with their plans they wouldn't have done it out of hatred or prejudice or even to win a war (justified or not - as far as wars can be justified). They were talking about the very survival of their species. They were talking about a situation where humanity had suffered an unannouced attack that had killed not thousands or millions , but billions of people. The sole survivals were being hunted down and, realistically speaking, had no chance of surviving at all in the long run. They had no way of effectively defeating the cylons and making them abandon the war. How long could they continue to run before they ran out of food, water, fuel, medicine? If the cylons didn't destroy them in one single attack, their numbers would continue to decrease until there was nobody left. In that context, if the only way to survive against an enemy that was not willing to negotiate, or allow escape, or offer any sort of peace treaty, if the only way was to completely destroy your enemy, would that be such a crime? Such a moral flaw? I'm not so sure. It does sound noble. But is it realistic?

Everybody agrees that murder is a crime and should be severely punished. However, killing someone in self-defense is not considered a crime. I think they had reached a point where the situation was so hopeless it could be compared to a self-defense killing.

We remember how disappointed and disillusioned Lee was when his father and the president decided to assassinate Cain for the better good. It wasn't the idea of killing someone (even in cold blood) that shocked Lee so much. Rather it was the fact that they hadn't reached a point where there was no other way to deal with disagreement. It was sort of a preemptive attack. I loved that Adama decided not to go through it it. His line about not being enough to survive (one has to be worthy of surviving) is one of my favorite one in the whole series. After all, what hope did humanity have if they could take each other's lives so easily?

There was nothing easy about the situation they were facing when they considered the "genocide" approach, though.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Yes, I think the genocide question in the context of the show is an interesting and debatable one, though of course I agree that in real life it is a horrendous crime and I certainly never ever in any way meant to imply that you or anyone might approve of that. I only meant that in the show it might not seem like Lee's advocacy of biological warfare to wipe out the Cylons was morally incorrect, although I personally thought that it was.

In the show, the big questions seem to be 1) are Cylons just machines simulating life, or do they possess sentience which qualifies them as rights-bearing individuals? 2) can the self-defense of one people justify the extermination of another? and 3) in a race of clones, is there anyone who qualifies as a non-combatant or civilian?

To give my own perspective on these questions, I would say: 1) the Cylons are clearly sentient and they seem to have free will (to the extent that anyone does in the BSG universe) which makes them rights-bearing individuals who are responsible for their actions, in my book. For this reason, I disapprove of the torture and execution without trial that is generally their lot when they fall into the hands of the Colonial Fleet. I'm not saying that they are innocent, far from it, but even murderers deserve trials, and I don't think torture is ever justified although I certainly understand the pressures involved when it seems like innocent lives might be at stake. 2) This second question is basically the Mutual Assured Destruction question, and I don't pretend that there is any easy answer. I personally feel that it is wrong to deliberately kill large numbers of enemy civilians even in order to protect one's own population from destruction. But I'm sure many out there would disagree with me. 3) The trickiest question, given the context of the show, is whether there are any innocent people/civilians among the Cylons, or whether every single copy is actively engaged in the genocidal campaign being carried out by the ones we see chasing the Colonial fleet? The problem with biological weapons is that they don't discriminate between citizens and soliders, adults and children, etc. Helo believes that there are those among the Cylons who cannot be held responsible for their leaders' war, taking his wife as an example. For that reason, he opposes the use of non-discriminatory, totalizing weapons. I tend to give Helo and Athena and the Cylon race the benefit of the doubt on this, especially given the divisions we see developing later on in their society. For that reason, I think Helo made the right choice, though it was also a tremendously risky one.

But certainly feel free to disagree :)

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I think you make a very strong argument and if it weren't for the fact that the human race was on the verge of iminent extinction, I'd totally agree with you on all counts. That and your number 1 point . We knew the cylons were sentient beings with free will, but it certainly took the humans on the show a long time to really realize that.

Anyway, one of the things I loved about BSG (besides Lee, Kara, L/K and Adama, of course)is that they dealt with so many difficult issues. Issues that need to be discussed more often.

Thank God, we don't have to deal with them in RL.

Disagreeing with you is as much fun as agreeing ever is. I really love your analytical, logical brain.

*hugs*

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

* hugs back *

I feel the same way! I learn a lot from your comments, and always enjoy discussing things together. Heaven knows these are really complicated issues; I definitely prefer to deal with them in fictional form :)