Daily Pilots Post

[dramaturgca.livejournal.com]

Thank you all for your comments on crossovers. It definitely made me think.

For today, we turn to meta. When I say meta, I mean the broadest possible definition of the word. Academic thoughts, thought provoking character analysis, unstructured commentary, whatever thinky thoughts you've got about Lee "Apollo" Adama.

For me, Lee has seemed to be the character with the most complete arc in the series. He starts off somewhat naive, alienated from his father, with very clearly defined standards of right and wrong. By the end, he's a deeply complex character who has learned how to fit into a world that makes no sense. RDM described Lee at least once as the moral center of the show, the conscience if you will. While he always maintained a belief in "right", his idea of what constituted right seemed to flex and expand (witness his reaction to the contaminated basestar). For me, I have felt that Lee's ending in Daybreak is at least in part because he became such a complex and human character that the writers didn't have a good way to conclude his character arc.

What do you think? What's fascinating about Lee Adama as a character?

[Preview: Yes, tomorrow will be Kara meta. Feel free to start thinking about it!]

Comments

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Lee and Cylons are always an interesting combination. They do bring out a scary side of him, because he sees them as machines and nothing more. His disgust for Sharon in "Home" is really our first hint at his attitude, which seems to be a fairly uncompromising 'they aren't people and we shouldn't be suckered into treating them like people' stance. He was about to shoot her in the head at two different points in "Home" (this from Lee 'Everyone Deserves a Fair Trial' Adama), and in "Home Part Two" he held people off at gunpoint to give his Dad a chance to throttle her. So I'm not sure that his stance in "A Measure of Salvation" was really out of character (though genocide is a bigger decision than personal vengeance), but it was definitely extremely disturbing.

The commentary on that episode is interesting, because Ron Moore mentions that there was a whole storyline they had planned for Lee in the first half of third season which they dropped, and "A Measure of Salvation" was really the only remnant of it. The storyline was that he and Dee were going to enter the Marines together (that's how they planned for him to lose the weight) and sort of go through a boot camp which would have the psychological effect of hardening Lee and making him a more committed and uncompromising soldier. So "A Measure of Salvation" was meant to indicate a new immersion into the military frame of mind and a new ruthlessness on his part. But they dropped the storyline, and later they obviously took Lee in other directions which fit in better with his established character, which does make his ruthlessness in that one episode look a bit bizarrely extreme for him.

I'm personally delighted that they dropped that storyline. That is in no way where I wanted Lee to go as a character. And I loved the very different voice they gave him, a voice that was true to himself and his "moral center" role, in the Season 3 finale. So hurrah for the cutting room floor, on that one.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I didn't know they had ever thought of doing that. I'm sooooo glad they didn't. Despite everything, I think Lee's characterization was one that was pretty consistent throught the series. I could never imagine him letting go of his sense of justice and his ideals because of any sort of training. They would have to brainwash him! I think the decision to move him towards politcs made much more sense, even if I truly missed "Captain Apollo" and I think the way the decided to do it was not the best one.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I am also glad they didn't make him "harder" and more hating of the cylons. It is interesting to imagine, however, and I might have also loved a more alpha!lee. I have problems with his decision to leave Galactica even though Kara returned, but I guess those are more shipper problems than storyline problems.

I like that he took a stand and decided to do his own thing. Some of my personal canons is that, in part, he made his final decision to leave the military because Kara was no longer alive. As long as Kara was in the military, my romanticized view tells me that he stayed, too. Once she was gone, he seemed much freer to do what his heart and mind told him to do. He was acutely vulnerable when he encountered Romo Lampkin and I think the idea of having a new sense of purpose filled him with something that had been long missing. With Kara gone, there was really no reason to stay in uniform.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I think that Kara's death did set him reeling, and that in the aftermath he found it almost impossible to continue on with his life as if nothing had changed. In part I think he threw himself into the trial because he was trying so hard to find a way to move forward and figure out how to be himself again in the face of this loss.

You mentioned elsewhere that you thought that the writers handled the end of the Lee/Dee relationship badly here, because she'd always seemed to understand him fairly well and it didn't make much sense that she would leave him over his role in the trial. I agree that it was handled badly in that it got about two seconds of screen time, but I actually thought that this was one of the best non-Kara-related conflicts that Lee and Dee could have had and I wish they had developped it into a real scene. Because at the end of the day, I think Lee and Dee missed certain fundamental aspects of each others' characters from day one (Lee more than Dee, I think, because he never seemed to focus much attention on her). I think Dee understood certain private things about Lee -- his loneliness, his feelings for Kara, his courage in facing impossible odds and finding a way to succeed. But she was under the misapprehension that he was a lot more like his father than he really was, I think, and I expect that it came as a shock to her that he would actually leave the military. I don't think she ever realized that he'd always felt like his military career and persona were poor fits for the passionately questioning side of his personality. In most of her speeches of support, she talks to him as if he's genuinely 'Apollo.'

And as for Dee, I am 100% sure that Lee had no idea that she'd willingly played the key role in stealing the last election to prevent Baltar from becoming President. She was absolutely of the opinion that if democracy got bad results then it should be ignored and fixed behind the scenes. From this alone I would have bet serious money that marrying Lee would eventually lead to some serious conflicts in moral perspective. That they would erupt over Baltar makes sense, given her earlier actions. Even her single line of explanation: "The system elected that man, and now it's trying to get him off, and it's not a system that deserves to be respected," gets straight to the heart of their disagreement. Dee's heart lies with the military and she isn't interested in defending civil codes and civil rights -- she cares more for results than for methods, and perhaps her experience as a Sagitarron gave her a deep-rooted cynicism about politics. In any case, she can't understand or respect what Lee is doing, and she can't understand that to him it's vitally important to look not only at what is being done but *how* and *why* it's being done.

Sorry for the digression, but I am always glad when plausible reasons for a Lee/Dee break-up present themselves, and I always felt that their views on democracy/the military/justice were potentially rich veins of conflict that were never properly explored.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I agree that it was somewhat refreshing to see Lee/Dee have a non-Kara related conflict. And, yes I also saw the set up coming there, but it was very loosely threaded. That said, it frustrates me that after everything that happened with Lee and Kara, it would be the philosophical issues that broke them up. Maybe it was how it was handled by the writers/editors, but there's something off about how she just dumps him. Cheat on her and it's fine. Have a moral difference and it's divorce? That does not ring true for me. And then much later, the two of them go on a date as if his presidency no longer posed a problem for her. (I will grant that she was influenced by suicidal intent at that time, but I don't want to get into a rant about Dee's suicide RIGHT AFTER A DATE WITH LEE. -okay a little ranty-)

I agree with your assessment that she saw more of Adama/Apollo in Lee than Lee possessed. It seems strange that Lee would not have told her about his disillusionment with the military. They had a lot of time together on Pegasus - what the heck did they talk about? LOL!

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

what the heck did they talk about? LOL!

Hee! Not much, apparently.

Cheat on her and it's fine. Have a moral difference and it's divorce? That does not ring true for me.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to agree with you on that one. Maybe it was because she'd seen the Kara thing coming even before she agreed to marry him (*how much do I hate that scene? Let me count the ways...*) but this conflict came as a surprise, just when she'd let her guard down and finally thought it would be smooth sailing from here on out? That's the best justification I can come up with, but I think your initial diagnosis of writer!fail is sounding better and better. Sigh.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"But she was under the misapprehension that he was a lot more like his father than he really was"

I couldn't agree more.

", I think, and I expect that it came as a shock to her that he would actually leave the military."

Well... we certainly know Lee more than she ever did (LOL) and it was a shock, so... I think we should cut her some slack her. hee

"I don't think she ever realized that he'd always felt like his military career and persona were poor fits for the passionately questioning side of his personality."

That is quite possible. As you said her "heart lies with the military" much more than his. I'd add that she idolized Adama much more than Lee, as well. However, I think she knew of his frustration and eventual disillusionment ( I mean, how could she not?) but she never thought it would go that far.

I guess a big problem is lots of marriages is that people delude themselves and try to conveniently ignore the aspects of their partner's personalities that they dislike or can't accept and then they delude themselves again believing the other person is going to change in the future. Perhaps that's what happened with her. She admired his Apollo persona but there were parts of his personality she couldn't accept but in her desire to have him ( or to settle), she chose to ignore those things and believe he would change (even that she might help him change) and that he would reach his full potential - becoming more and more similar to his father. When it became clear that wouldn't happen , she left.

Of course, all this is pure especulation since we never saw any glimpses of that. All in all, I think writers fail is , yet again, the best explanation.