DPP: Expectations

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Today, a discussion about what we expect in pilots fanfic and how we characterize the "fixes" to pilot problems. Like everyone, I've read a lot of k/l fanfic that moves their relationship to a better place using some similar tropes. One of those tropes is that Lee changes to be more patient and trusting and uses the "drip-drip-drip" approach to getting Kara to trust him. Given the prevalence of this trope, I'd like to ask you all a question that someone once asked me:

Do we expect too much of Lee?

In other words, do we expect him to be endlessly patient and accepting and willing to wait Kara out on her fears? If so, why? Secondarily, if we do, is that fair?

Additionally, if their genders were reversed, would we expect Lee to wait for Kara in the same way or would we consider that unfitting or stereotypical for a woman to wait for a man to sort out his issues?

I have a lot of "maybe??" responses to these and can see the answers being quite fic/situation specific, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

In giving your thoughts about the idea, consider your OWN expectations and then consider the body of work in the BSG fandom: Does it uphold the expectation that it is Lee who changes to make their relationship work? Also, if you are a writer, what other ways have you "fixed" their relationship to make it work?

This question is in no way designed to judge any character or opinion that anyone has. I expect everyone will be kind and thoughtful in their responses. Thanks!

---

WISHING WELL UPDATE:

WISHES FULFILLED!
Wish granted for sci_fi_shipper: Scar and EoJ icons (shareable) by kl_shipper1.

UNCLAIMED WISHES
We have many pilots shippers whose wishes have not been claimed! Here is a list of the wishes requested. (I've summarized the longer ones, so please check the link for specifics.)

Wish for "Crack!vid of LMFAO’s ‘Sexy And I Know It’ starring one, Leland Adama" HERE.

Wish for "Humor piece from Kara’s POV post-poof as she watches life on Earth go on without her" HERE.

Wish for "pretty, colorful cool Kara-centric icons" HERE.

Wish for "pre-mini ficlet featuring Kara, Lee, and Karl" HERE.

Wish for fic of Zak realizing Kara and Lee have feelings for each other and doing something about it HERE.

Wish for "ficlet about Kara and Lee when they've grown old" HERE.

Wish for "fic about Lee learning the origin of Kara's callsign" HERE.

Wish for "Kara finds out Lee's marrying Dee and it's enough of a shock to make her try to interfere" HERE.

Wish for "a BSG vid to the song Unsettled Scores" HERE.

Wish for "post-canon Kara/Lee + Bill/Saul family fic" HERE.

Comments

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's so much that they need to *change* as they both need to access, to express and to indulge in the love they already feel and have felt all along. People who don't like K/L or think they're pretty unhealthy for each other tend to focus on the fact that they "fight all the time", and they fight pretty explosively, emotional and physical punches being thrown. But what about how they work really well together, almost unconsciously handing guns and ammo to each other without a word on Kobol, flying together and carrying out missions, wrangling Kat in Final Cut, Doing security detail and interrogation on Colonial One, finishing each other's sentences when they present the strike plan in Daybreak, backing each other up in the mutiny. And even emotionally, being playful together on Colonial One, trying to listen and comfort each other in Home, in Scar, in Res Ship 1 and 2, at the end of Captain's Hand, in Maelstrom. I guess all that is just to say--I think it's already all there for them. They just have to be open to being like that all the time. To believe they can have it, that they deserve that kind of happiness. That it can be that easy for them.

Kara's fear does seem like the biggest obstacle to that, to me, because she seems very aware of her feelings, whereas Lee is at first obtuse (according to him in UB) and then when he finally figures it out, he is willing to take a chance (even tho it's too late). So Kara needs to get past the fear, but how will that change come about unless Lee prompts it? I'm not sure. She needs to know he's sure she's what he wants. And I don't think Kara ever fully believes that. Even after he says he was afraid to admit he needed her. I mean to her--if he can't admit he needs her--doesn't that mean she's a source of shame for him maybe? That he can't admit it? So I think that's part of why we--or at least why I often write him declaring she is worth it, he does love her beyond reason, etc.

ETA: In real life, would a person like Kara be able to commit fairly easily to other people as well? Or would she be afraid of that commitment in all her relationships? I mean short of therapy (which would never happen on BSG) how does a person change? Time? A big event that is a catalyst? The slow drip-drip of patient love making you realize/accept it's a good thing? The assurance that the love you crave is unconditional, can't be frakked up, won't ever be taken back? That last one Lee eventually gets to--at the end of S4 which is why their lack of happy ending is so damn egregious.


Sometimes I do wonder why she needs that. Why she can't be the one to put it out there first. Why she's not confident enough to go to him and declare her feelings and pursue him, like she would with any other guy. Why can't it be as seemingly easy as it was with Sam and Zak? IDK the answer to that question. Again I think the *forbidden* beginning to their relationship might have something to do with it. She knew early on it was wrong to have those feelings so she squashed them? Although, interestingly I think Kara was very obvious--far more than Lee-- in S1 with her feelings. Watch her face at the end of the mini scene when he comes back from the dead, after Lee walks away. She teased him about giving her a bath! She wore a pretty dress for him! She can't stop grinning at him after the Tylium mission and gives him her best cigar! But I think what someone said upthread about everything changing as of KLG1--that's pretty true. That's where it all gets serious and their dynamic changes and Kara goes off and meets Anders who becomes the Insta-Love of Her Life (per canon) and Lee becomes the one more obviously pining. After that we don't see Kara emotionally needing/wanting Lee until...Res Ship I and then Captain's Hand, I guess?

Hmm. That was a big rambling mess. I'm not sure I answered your questions coherently or at all. It's very interesting to try to capture though. :)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I love what you've said here, but only have time right now for a short comment. I very much blame Lee for the sharp change in their relationship in KLG when he was so awful to her. I think they were slowly building friendship and trust and then he judged her in a way that reinforced her internalized views of herself as "a frak-up" - something she learned from her mother. Lee's judgment of her, IMO, always stayed on her mind and I've always thought that it is essentially Lee's fault that she can't trust him.

Overall, he does want her to change and be more than she is. On the whole, I don't have a huge issue with that, but the problem is that he doesn't highlight the reasons why she is already wonderful and worth loving; instead, he just expects change. Many people enjoy the scene where in Captain's Hand where Kara says "Are we okay?" and Lee teases her by saying, "You have a brain?". I've seen that described as wonderful because they don't need to use their words, that hugs, etc. are enough. I completely disagree. I think that situation, in particular, did require words. It did require Lee to say, Yeah, we're okay. We're still friends and I still love you. Not to say that she's clueless (sorry, but that is another way to look at it.) I know that's not fun television, but in the real world with people who are psychologically damaged and with fundamental issues about their worthiness, they need to hear the words. (Long rambly tangent...)

That's all I have for now, but I hope to come back later and say more. You've given me so much to think about. *hugs*

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Aw *huggles Leland* I don't really blame him. I mean I do hate that he reacts so harshly (TELLING HER HE WOULDN'T MISS HER!!), but I also feel like I understand he can't control that spite/bitter/jealous/fearful strikeout. That it's just who he is at that point in his life, just like Kara's fear and tendency to run and shut down are her at those points. Sigh. Oh Kids. YOU DO THE ANGST LIKE NO OTHER COUPLE HAS EVER DONE THE ANGST! ALL OTHER SHIPS PALE IN COMPARISON! <3

That's interesting about Captain's Hand exchange. I think at the time I first watched it, I wanted him to say something sweet, but somehow his quip did seem like *so them*, retreating to that safe, kids just teasing each other place. Because they don't say that kind of stuff at that point in canon. It's just too emotionally naked. That's why I'm such a big fan of their growing and changing. I always wanted them to get to the place where Lee can say to her "I don't care, You're Kara, you're here, this is all that matters" that he gets to at the end of S4. Granted, I wanted Kara to get to that place too! I wish there had been one (aside from UBEX) declaration of her love for him. But again, hers is always in actions not words. Maybe that's why I think she's more damaged? I just can't ever see her expressing it in canon. (So I guess that harkens back to your question about it seeming too OOC for Kara to be putting it all out there declaratively.)

OMG SO MANY WORDS TODAY! WHO KNEW I HAD ALL THIS META STILL RARING TO BE LET OUT? LOL! Thanks bb. DITTO! *Hugs*

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

I wish there had been one (aside from UBEX) declaration of her love for him. But again, hers is always in actions not words.

this is probably one of my biggest (if not really the only big one except that IF that is haunting me) problems with her. people that are damaged in the way that Lee is damaged by the silent neglect of parents need to be told that they are loved. two little words (that are not asked for but given willingly) or an unprompted hug are more important for this kind of person than grand gestures. at lest it does in my experience.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Sigh I know. Their issues are SOOO SIMILAR. They both come from such bad backgrounds, places of fear, such big self-worth issues... It makes sense that they're both so afraid, yet... it's so sad that they can't show that love to each other more.

And sometimes what makes it worse is that canon shows Kara being so easily demonstrative with Sam and Zak. Lee is pretty much always stiff and uncomfortable from what we see of his interactions with Dee and Gianne (if that counts)--although weirdly he's pretty loose with Siobhan. Maybe cause he's paying for her. IDK!

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

And sometimes what makes it worse is that canon shows Kara being so easily demonstrative with Sam and Zak.

Gah. This is so hard to see and understand and explain. Is it because Sam and Zak are easy going and affectionate and they set the stage for their physical contact during ordinary times? Lee is physically more closed off, stiff and often using his body language as a barrier to Kara. But when he does embrace her, my gods, it's like the sun has come out after a long dark winter. They needed more times to be calm and easy and I think even at his most happy, that was never easy for Lee. It's one of his traits that is often well shown in fic, but not really talked about, i.e. how he uses his body language to keep Kara away, just like Kara uses other people to push between them. I don't know if it's that black and white and probably doesn't equate, but it's interesting to ponder. I tend to think it has to do with him being insecure and wary around Kara - that she's unpredictable and he does not like that. It's very good for him, but I think it's difficult and he stays guarded a lot of the time. His guarded stance says to Kara might make her feel disconnected from him. That's why pilots need LOTS AND LOTS OF HUGS. (And kisses and much much more!)

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

So sad!! So frustrating!! ... But....soo epic! <3

Also great analogy abt sun coming out after long dark winter when they touch each other. I swear if they could just keep one hand on each other at all times!! Their touches are so grounding! There is such relief on their faces, like they can finally relax and take a breath when they are in each others' arms!! **flail** **swoon** **sigh**

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

SSWA

Perfect hugs. Perfect together. PILOTS <3<3<3<3<3

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Lee's judgment of her, IMO, always stayed on her mind and I've always thought that it is essentially Lee's fault that she can't trust him.

I see your point, but (and it may very well be irrelevant in any practical terms)the only reason she took that to heart like that was the fact it touched a chord that dated back to her childhood. Without that those would just have been words said in anger and then forgotten. So, the real deal was never really his actions but rather her own issues. Now, I'm not just trying to defend Lee for the sake of defending him or to play devil's advocate.So, he might have been the trigger, but it's not really his fault she had been damaged by her childhood. I really think, with the exception of the morning after in NC (to an extent), their actions (or inaction) towards the other always had everything to do with their issues as individuals rather than a reaction to whatever the other had done.

As for the "Are we Ok?" , I had never seen it that way. Yes, I would have loved if he had said the words. Sometimes, words do need to be said. At the time, I was happy enough with the fact that they were able to joke around again. If only they had kept at it and gotten closer together after that...

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I see your point, but (and it may very well be irrelevant in any practical terms)the only reason she took that to heart like that was the fact it touched a chord that dated back to her childhood.

I was trying to say exactly that (in limited time and words) when I said that it reinforced the belief in herself that she was a "frak-up", something her mother taught her. But I still feel comfortable being angry at Lee for being a jerk. Whether she was wrong or not for taking it to heart, it stung just the same. :( Individual reactions in a two-way relationship always count, yes in unexpected and damaging ways, but they count nonetheless. He said the words and while he could not have predicted the damage, they were his words. He needed to apologize and make it right. He never explicitly did. :(

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I see what you mean. Of course the words hurt and he should have apologized. Somehow that was not their M.O. though.:( They both said hurtful words to each other (and to others) more than once and I don't recall either of them apologizing. That is awful. I just wanted to emphasize that the fact that some hurts sting more and longer than others have less to do with the words said than with your own previous beliefs. But I agree, of course.

Come to think of it, apologies were not very popular in that universe, were they? I absolutely adore the scene where Adama forgives Roslin and she reminds him she never apologized. hehe. But I digress...

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Forgiveness is something that Ron Moore really never explicitly portrayed in the show except on the grandest scales, that somehow the humans could forgive the cylons and create an alliance despite the annihilation of the human race. I'd rather have seen forgiveness explicitly shown on a personal level between characters. (I also love that scene between Roslin and Adama.) :)

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I love everything you said here. :)

Sometimes I do wonder why she needs that. Why she can't be the one to put it out there first. Why she's not confident enough to go to him and declare her feelings and pursue him, like she would with any other guy. Why can't it be as seemingly easy as it was with Sam and Zak?

To me the answer to that is quite simple. Because Lee is more than the other. He makes her feel more. He makes her want to share more, to give more, to reveal more, to believe and hope more. His judgement would hurt more, his loss would make her suffer more.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

That's always my rationale for it too. He's everything - family, friend, and lover. Too much at stake there. But I guess I wish we got just a little more of Kara's thoughts on that in canon. Because I really hate that other people read it as her being torn about her feelings between him and Sam, or just not caring or needing him enough. :(

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Totally agree with you there. Although banter and warm looks and little touches are great, some times call for the big words. Lee had his. He deserved to receive them back. And she deserved to say them at least once.