DPP: Expectations

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Today, a discussion about what we expect in pilots fanfic and how we characterize the "fixes" to pilot problems. Like everyone, I've read a lot of k/l fanfic that moves their relationship to a better place using some similar tropes. One of those tropes is that Lee changes to be more patient and trusting and uses the "drip-drip-drip" approach to getting Kara to trust him. Given the prevalence of this trope, I'd like to ask you all a question that someone once asked me:

Do we expect too much of Lee?

In other words, do we expect him to be endlessly patient and accepting and willing to wait Kara out on her fears? If so, why? Secondarily, if we do, is that fair?

Additionally, if their genders were reversed, would we expect Lee to wait for Kara in the same way or would we consider that unfitting or stereotypical for a woman to wait for a man to sort out his issues?

I have a lot of "maybe??" responses to these and can see the answers being quite fic/situation specific, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

In giving your thoughts about the idea, consider your OWN expectations and then consider the body of work in the BSG fandom: Does it uphold the expectation that it is Lee who changes to make their relationship work? Also, if you are a writer, what other ways have you "fixed" their relationship to make it work?

This question is in no way designed to judge any character or opinion that anyone has. I expect everyone will be kind and thoughtful in their responses. Thanks!

---

WISHING WELL UPDATE:

WISHES FULFILLED!
Wish granted for sci_fi_shipper: Scar and EoJ icons (shareable) by kl_shipper1.

UNCLAIMED WISHES
We have many pilots shippers whose wishes have not been claimed! Here is a list of the wishes requested. (I've summarized the longer ones, so please check the link for specifics.)

Wish for "Crack!vid of LMFAO’s ‘Sexy And I Know It’ starring one, Leland Adama" HERE.

Wish for "Humor piece from Kara’s POV post-poof as she watches life on Earth go on without her" HERE.

Wish for "pretty, colorful cool Kara-centric icons" HERE.

Wish for "pre-mini ficlet featuring Kara, Lee, and Karl" HERE.

Wish for fic of Zak realizing Kara and Lee have feelings for each other and doing something about it HERE.

Wish for "ficlet about Kara and Lee when they've grown old" HERE.

Wish for "fic about Lee learning the origin of Kara's callsign" HERE.

Wish for "Kara finds out Lee's marrying Dee and it's enough of a shock to make her try to interfere" HERE.

Wish for "a BSG vid to the song Unsettled Scores" HERE.

Wish for "post-canon Kara/Lee + Bill/Saul family fic" HERE.

Comments

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if it's fair for Lee to have to be the one who patiently waits for Kara, but I also think Lee being the patient one comes as a believable extension of his personality. Lee not giving up the search for Kara when she's on the red moon points to something similar to patience. As does, I think, his ability to carry a grudge and even the fact that he keep coming back to Kara. He has a determination that is easily made into patience.

No, we wouldn't expect Kara to wait for Lee the same way. Dee waits patiently for Lee to figure things out in S3 and is often not seen well for it. I also think it's harder to believe that Kara would wait. She teases and runs and puts people between them which doesn't make a viewer or writer think "Wow, patience!"

[onlyariana.livejournal.com]

I think this is an absolutely fascinating topic. I've always thought that as shown on the show Kara and Lee wouldn't ever be able to have a healthy romantic relationship. Both were seriously abused as children and the ways they coped were fairly opposite which sort of puts them at odds as adults. Kara was further seriously traumatized both by her abuse on Caprica and New Caprica. I'm not sure either of them could ever have a healthy relationship, much less with each other.

As he's shown in canon I wouldn’t be in a relationship with Lee for anything. He ran out on his pregnant girlfriend! I know we try to make that more ok by saying he was going to come to his senses but for a second let's pretend that we're sitting around eating ice cream out of the carton with our BFF Gianne. What do we say about Lee then??? Or let's be Dualla's friend and what would we say about him? I'm not of the opinion that all this is just because he loves Kara so much. I think it's more about *him* and his own issues. And I'm not shocked that he has these issues given his upbringing - but he's unlikely to change at all because he sees himself as right, righteous, and functioning well. He pushes it all down, slaps a smooth veneer on top and calls it good.

Kara on the other hand has some sense of understanding that she's frakked up. She *could* change given the right circumstances. Sam has the right idea on how to handle her but he's missing some piece. I think part of it is a lack of respect. And there really is no love without respect. If I was Sam's bestie I'd be telling him to leave that cheating wife of his in his dust. Shoot, I'd be saying the same if I was Zak's friend.

So, to answer your question, I don't think it's fair to ask Lee to change (or I should say to change first, because Kara does change as well by the end of the fic) BUT I don't see how it'd work otherwise. I think if the personalities were reversed we'd be expecting Kara to change instead.

OT (kinda)

[n-e-star.livejournal.com]

I need help filling a wish.

Claimed a wallpaper and was asked for Hot Arms. All I can think of is Lee in the mini, but the stupid bars are in the way and Kara's you can't really see.

What other episodes should I be looking at?

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

What a fantastic topic! I don't know if we've ever discussed this through the writing/fandom lens. I can't give a full answer right at the moment, but I'm sitting here wondering how AU versus canon stories might change the analysis. I find myself constantly pulling pilots out of canon context because I find them easier to "work on" outside of canon and now I'm left thinking about why I do this. I'll be back later with more thoughts but I just wanted to say AWESOME TOPIC!


:D

Re: OT (kinda)

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Oooooooh-- my favorite arms ever I think are right at the beginning of season 2 when his dad's just been shot and he's in the brig. Plus he's all bloodied up for good measure. *g*

So "Scattered" I think?

Re: OT (kinda)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Black Market (gym scene with Dee), KLG1 (boxing scene with Adama), Final Cut, YCGHA when he's under the viper (before the call with roslin), and UB boxing.

YAY!

Re: OT (kinda)

[plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com]

Final frakkin' Cut! :D

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

It sounds like you are saying that you WANT Lee to change more because he has some serious flaws and has a history of treating women badly. I can see that. I think you are also saying that Lee has no insight into his flaws and that he is self-centered. I can see that, as well. And yes, canon does present their relationship as very flawed and making a relationship work early in the show would have been nearly impossible.

I guess I wonder why you'd expect Kara to be able to change but not Lee? Is it a matter of insight, as you have said? Further, do you think Lee did change in canon to be more accepting of Kara (Islanded)? If so, how did that happen? (These questions are not challenging your view, but striving to understand. Thanks!)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Ah, so you are saying that Lee has the personality underpinnings to already be determined and patient? I mean, I think it makes sense to show Lee as the patient one who is more stable and better able to wait. My stumbling blocks, however are TRUST and FORGIVENESS. Lee seems terrible at both of these. Thoughts?

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

YAY! I look forward to hearing your thoughts. I'd love to talk about the distinctions between AU and canon fic as they relate to the question (which I THINK is another point you are making?) :D

[plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com]

Take this with a grain of salt because I've written exacty two fics that deal with K/L in a meaty, non-drabbly way, but I think they both have to change. I don't think it's fair to make Lee wait, but considering where in canon you come at it from, he has his own share of problems. That's why I really like post-canon or AU here - post-canon especially because it's so hard for me to picture them getting their act together at most points in the show.

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

I think what I expect from Lee is less waiting for Kara to change and more accepting that she won't. In the one happy ending fic I wrote for them The Return (http://deborah-judge.livejournal.com/222899.html), I think I was using her angel-ness as a sort of metaphor and shorthand for all the things that don't match between them and all her various Stuff that is going to get in the way of her having the sort of conventional relationship Lee would want. And if he wants to be with her in that universe he's going to have to accept that she's not what he wants her to be. I think if he could do that she'd have an easier time not harming him and pushing him away, because I think part of what she fears about being in a relationship with him is precisely that it will change her in ways that will compromise other parts of what she is and what she has to do.

And yeah, that's a lot to expect from Lee. Maybe too much. And it is unfair that he has to accept more difficult things with her than she has to accept with him. I have written Kara in that sort of radical acceptance in her other relationships, choosing to be with Sam even knowing that he's going to stay in Hybrid form and they'll never have normal sex (or for that matter a normal conversation), choosing to be with Leoben even though he'll never stop promoting religious beliefs that she finds abhorrent. But I don't think she'd have to accept anything quite so foreign to her nature in order to be with Lee.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

That's a really interesting insight. That Lee is possibly unable to change because he doesn't acknowledge there's any problem with what he's doing and how he's living most of the time. (It's ironic that the one thing he does acknowledge there's a problem with is cheating with Kara--which is the truest outlet/demonstration of his real feelings probably?)

I always found the deleted scene in Daybreak where Kara yells at Bill "No wonder Lee is so frakked up" to be really really interesting. Because I wondered where that was coming from--I never got the impression that Kara really thought Lee *was* frakked up before that line (probably because fanon has her putting him on a bit of a pedestal and believing she isn't good enough for him a lot of the time), but I do think she's always more of a realist and a good observer of people and the way they work (though it doesn't always benefit her to have that knowledge) so the line doesn't ring as untrue to me, just...interesting to have her acknowledge that.

I have probably gotten really off course here. Sorry!

Re: OT (kinda)

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Also Torn--in the gym with Helo after he loses all that weight. hee. And Scar--when he sweeps all that shit off the table while he and Kara are going at it.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

I think you're on to something here. And they definitely both have issues out the wazoo (which often exacerbate the other). This too is why I tend to leave canon alone and come at K/L stories from outside that context-- not ignoring canon, but not trying to change it either.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

(It is. *g*)

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I think we do expect Lee to make the first move/change/be the catalyst in forcing Kara's hand. It's not fair, but I agree with onlyariana that it's more...logical given his personality traits (he has an idealism, a hopefulness, that aside from post-Pegasus depression, he seems to manage to always retain) and Kara's kind of incontrovertable belief that she will fuck things up in life in general and specifically if she tries to reach for happiness with him. (I have a whole rant on that latter bit because I really want to know how Kara managed to convince herself that happiness was possible with Zak and Sam but not Lee. Intellectually I know the likely reasons, but emotionally it just wounds and baffles me and makes me want to scream.)

I know when I write canon fic that I do tend to give Lee a lot of patience and often a lot of speechifying about loving Kara and wanting her to come around. I have done the opposite on occasion, but Kara isn't a speechifier. She's just not. So for her it's more about actions. She takes action with him rather than declaring her love with words. She kisses him, or fraks him, or puts a gun in his hand and makes him train it on her or proposes marriage or whatever.

I guess I give her a lot of vulnerability and doubt that Lee would really want her. That "Are you sure I'm what you want?" really rings in my head often, as maybe the most naked and truest of Kara's fears ever put into words. I always see that as a hurdle Lee needs to get her past, fair or not. I know he has the same fear, but I think canon shows he is willing to conquer it to have her, whereas Kara can't or didn't. And that sticks with me.

I think if Lee was a woman and Kara was a man...it would fit the more typical stereotype of a girl pining for an unable-to-commit playboy. It's hard to imagine because it would change the entire tenor of their relationship in so many ways I guess.

Unlike I think most of the current day shippers though, I don't find them ill-suited and I absolutely believe they could have had a healthy relationship, and not necessarily only after they talked out a bunch of shit or whatever. Look at the way they are in S4 & S4.5. And Kara didn't necessarily need to die either for that to happen. Her death wouldn't change anything. What if she hadn't? What if it had just been a near-death thing? She does pull out of that maelstrom and comes back, and Lee tackleglomps her in front of everyone. But she does all the other things she does and Bill imprisons her and Lee goes to her to say goodbye, etc. etc. It could all unfold the exact same way in canon, and instead of her poofing at the end, she could just take Lee's hand and they could walk off into the field together, all "Guess it's just you and me now."

I believe they learned how to be supportive and mature in the last season(s) of the show, and they're the healthiest people in each others' lives at that point. They could've just went on from there, continuing to be awesome and happy. Sigh.

Relationship Inequality & the Perilous Invocation of the Perfect Boyfriend

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Okay so here we go....

First, a confession. I'm okay with canon.

Not in the gender!fail, sexuality!fail, religion!fail, wimmins!fail, narrative!fail, plot!fail, science!fail sense-- believe me, I can more than appreciate all the shit that went wrong as the show wrapped things up. But I'm talking pilots here. I'm okay with their canon story in the sense that I don't see the need or the point in fixing it. For numerous reasons, but mostly it comes down to personal preference issues--- I find canon too claustrophobic, I don't want to take the trouble to rewrite it (and many before and after me have done a great job of this so there's no need piling on) and in short I just don't feel compelled to go there.

I'd rather go at pilots from AU perspective that takes what happens and builds on it. And there's a big reason for this-- there's a reason I won't touch pre-season 4 pilots except in a drabble or a oneshot: THEIR RESPECTIVE ISSUES ARE ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO OVERCOME. I say almost because it can be done and it can be done well, but it's too much time/energy/work for my taste. Maybe there was hope for them in season 1 (if you can get them over the Zak guilt/undisclosed whatnot), but after KLGII you are fighting an uphill battle big time. And that runs all the way to the back half of S3. I'd say up until Maelstrom actually. That's the first hint of a maturity between them in approaching how they relate to each other.

And I feel like if you try to go after them prior to this time, you run the risk of getting bogged down in relationship inequiality-ville (which is where I think our lovely host was going with this comment). And Lee usually bears the brunt of this because although he does have issues, Kara inevitably has more. (I'm sorry, she just does.)

And so there is a temptation to pedalstalize him. To make him infinitely loving and paitent and caring and fill-in-the-blank. And this is a very slippery slope, my friends because at that point he's about one step away from becoming Perfect Boyfriend material (which in turn creates two problems: (i) the heroine doesn't actually have to resolve her issues because her shit is 'accepted' and 'approved' by said PB, and (ii) the PB becomes a kind of paternalistic savior from her ills (ie, "His love has made me whole!") which is just another expression of getting you a big strong man to save the day. I find both of these repugnant and frankly offensive as a person who possesses ovaries. For the love of all that is holy, don't let my shit slide and tell me it's all good even while I'm acting horribly (advance apologies to the Kara/Sam fans, but this is exactly why I can't love them together), but also don't seek to save me simply by being your perfect wonderful self (ie, don't give me perfect and flawless Lee Adama who saves Kara simply from the force of his love and goodness.) Both outcomes are flat and emotioanlly unsatisfying for me.

So I guess to sum it up, I think these problems can be potential pitfalls in canon-focused fic. The good news is that it's very rare that these issues are as prounounced as I've described them here (we are blessed with an abundance of nuance in our writings and thank the gods for that), but it's something to be wary of. Constant vigilance and all that. (Or if you're like me, say screw all that hard stuff and go straight to AU and play with crazyspacemagic and see how many tropes you can throw in a blender and stand on their head.)

Thoughts, I have them. ;)


ETA: On the being okay with pilots canon thing-- See Tara's last 2 paragraphs above. I'm okay right up until the point they didn't just end up together (b/c really, they did the hard work and got to good places and amen to everything she says). The blew it on the K/L endgame when it came right down to it. So canon, minus the last 30 minutes is what I was getting at. You can work with those last 30 minutes, but I think you've got to pull some AU in there-- and that's another discussion entirely.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

Yeah, Lee has a hard time with both trust and forgiveness. But I'm not sure he can do much more than sit back and be willing while trust is rebuilt and forgiveness is earned. Especially in the case of Kara and Lee, Kara is the one with the more active roll in both of these. Since Kara is the character more inclined towards action, it works for Lee to wait her out.

Now, part of the difficulty for Kara and Lee in terms of trust and forgiveness is Kara's feelings of inadequacy. Kara lets Lee beat her up in UB because it's the only way she feels comfortable earning his forgiveness.

I have to think some more about trust. Hopefully, I will get back to you later... :)

[onlyariana.livejournal.com]

It's like they say for an addict. The first step is admitting you have a problem.

I think it isn't so much that I expect Kara to be able to change but I can see what might help her to change (Lee turning into fic!Lee). I'm not sure I know what would help Lee to change. Do you? Maybe if Kara was like Dee. I've stated above that I thought Sam was on the right track with giving her space but still being there. Maybe it was the same with Dee, if Lee had just respected her more her tactics might've worked. It's hard to say because I feel like as little as we saw of the Kara/Sam relationship we saw even less of the Lee/Dee.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I know what would help Lee to change. Do you?

I come from the camp that Lee did change in canon. His experiences in leaving the military, failing at marriage, and finally losing Kara all combined to show Lee that the choices he was making weren't working for him. I think we're talking about Lee becoming less self-centered and possibly more accepting of others? IDK. I like to think that in the end, his love and need for Kara surpassed his need to feel safe or comfortable. Although, maybe it was easier than fighting more for her. IDK. Lee's passivity (which many disagree with) drives me crazy and his love an acceptance of Kara could just as well be giving up and accepting that they won't be together. Frak. Just thinking that makes my heart hurt.

Thanks for the reply!

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

I think it's more about *him* and his own issues. And I'm not shocked that he has these issues given his upbringing - but he's unlikely to change at all because he sees himself as right, righteous, and functioning well. He pushes it all down, slaps a smooth veneer on top and calls it good.

Geez louise. And in that sense he and Bill are pretty much the same person. Gah. Great insight.

And I agree that canon!Lee is terrible boyfriend material in so many ways. He's such a difficult person to get close to-- in some ways much more difficult than Kara. Much colder and more exacting and unforgiving. He's a difficult, difficult character. (But I think it's also what makes him so wonderfully compelling. :)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I totally believe they could have been happy together, but yes, later in the show when they'd both grown and changed. Sadly, the Kara we got after Maelstrom is hard for me to see as Kara, so IDK. Sometimes I have to believe she is the Kara we know because I so much want her to be alive, but another part of me knows that she died. So, Lee changing after that doesn't matter much to the ship. IDK. I'm confusing my own self.

[onlyariana.livejournal.com]

I might've screamed and jumped about when I saw that deleted scene. Also made me wonder what they really knew about each other's childhoods. Bill's poor parenting certainly helped shape Lee but I'd imagine the co-dependent relationship with his alcoholic mother added quite a bit. (It's so sad when Bill is the best parent out of four, isn't it?)

I agree Kara is a good observer. That's where her triad game comes from, right? I always kinda thought that part of Kara's reluctance to jump into a relationship with Lee wasn't just her own insecurity (though that was certainly there) but also her fear of Lee. He is an incredible marksman when it comes to hurting people. When he's mad he'd likely hit Kara just where it'd hurt most (think Major from wherever). Maybe she realizes all this and knows that they'd just end up hurting each other even more than the stupid sham marriages did.

I also think Kara has a hard time with monogamy. That might've worked ok for Sam, possibly even for Zak. But I really really don't think Lee could have dealt.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Unlike I think most of the current day shippers though, I don't find them ill-suited and I absolutely believe they could have had a healthy relationship

Is that a prevalent idea these days? Interesting. I'd love to get a third-wave fangirl or boy to jump in and explain this.

I kind of quoted your last two paragrapyhs below, but so much word to that. It was all there. I think that's what makes the ending so incredibly painful.