DPP: Expectations

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Today, a discussion about what we expect in pilots fanfic and how we characterize the "fixes" to pilot problems. Like everyone, I've read a lot of k/l fanfic that moves their relationship to a better place using some similar tropes. One of those tropes is that Lee changes to be more patient and trusting and uses the "drip-drip-drip" approach to getting Kara to trust him. Given the prevalence of this trope, I'd like to ask you all a question that someone once asked me:

Do we expect too much of Lee?

In other words, do we expect him to be endlessly patient and accepting and willing to wait Kara out on her fears? If so, why? Secondarily, if we do, is that fair?

Additionally, if their genders were reversed, would we expect Lee to wait for Kara in the same way or would we consider that unfitting or stereotypical for a woman to wait for a man to sort out his issues?

I have a lot of "maybe??" responses to these and can see the answers being quite fic/situation specific, but I thought I'd throw it out there.

In giving your thoughts about the idea, consider your OWN expectations and then consider the body of work in the BSG fandom: Does it uphold the expectation that it is Lee who changes to make their relationship work? Also, if you are a writer, what other ways have you "fixed" their relationship to make it work?

This question is in no way designed to judge any character or opinion that anyone has. I expect everyone will be kind and thoughtful in their responses. Thanks!

---

WISHING WELL UPDATE:

WISHES FULFILLED!
Wish granted for sci_fi_shipper: Scar and EoJ icons (shareable) by kl_shipper1.

UNCLAIMED WISHES
We have many pilots shippers whose wishes have not been claimed! Here is a list of the wishes requested. (I've summarized the longer ones, so please check the link for specifics.)

Wish for "Crack!vid of LMFAO’s ‘Sexy And I Know It’ starring one, Leland Adama" HERE.

Wish for "Humor piece from Kara’s POV post-poof as she watches life on Earth go on without her" HERE.

Wish for "pretty, colorful cool Kara-centric icons" HERE.

Wish for "pre-mini ficlet featuring Kara, Lee, and Karl" HERE.

Wish for fic of Zak realizing Kara and Lee have feelings for each other and doing something about it HERE.

Wish for "ficlet about Kara and Lee when they've grown old" HERE.

Wish for "fic about Lee learning the origin of Kara's callsign" HERE.

Wish for "Kara finds out Lee's marrying Dee and it's enough of a shock to make her try to interfere" HERE.

Wish for "a BSG vid to the song Unsettled Scores" HERE.

Wish for "post-canon Kara/Lee + Bill/Saul family fic" HERE.

Comments

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure if it's fair for Lee to have to be the one who patiently waits for Kara, but I also think Lee being the patient one comes as a believable extension of his personality. Lee not giving up the search for Kara when she's on the red moon points to something similar to patience. As does, I think, his ability to carry a grudge and even the fact that he keep coming back to Kara. He has a determination that is easily made into patience.

No, we wouldn't expect Kara to wait for Lee the same way. Dee waits patiently for Lee to figure things out in S3 and is often not seen well for it. I also think it's harder to believe that Kara would wait. She teases and runs and puts people between them which doesn't make a viewer or writer think "Wow, patience!"

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Ah, so you are saying that Lee has the personality underpinnings to already be determined and patient? I mean, I think it makes sense to show Lee as the patient one who is more stable and better able to wait. My stumbling blocks, however are TRUST and FORGIVENESS. Lee seems terrible at both of these. Thoughts?

[onlyariana.livejournal.com]

I think this is an absolutely fascinating topic. I've always thought that as shown on the show Kara and Lee wouldn't ever be able to have a healthy romantic relationship. Both were seriously abused as children and the ways they coped were fairly opposite which sort of puts them at odds as adults. Kara was further seriously traumatized both by her abuse on Caprica and New Caprica. I'm not sure either of them could ever have a healthy relationship, much less with each other.

As he's shown in canon I wouldn’t be in a relationship with Lee for anything. He ran out on his pregnant girlfriend! I know we try to make that more ok by saying he was going to come to his senses but for a second let's pretend that we're sitting around eating ice cream out of the carton with our BFF Gianne. What do we say about Lee then??? Or let's be Dualla's friend and what would we say about him? I'm not of the opinion that all this is just because he loves Kara so much. I think it's more about *him* and his own issues. And I'm not shocked that he has these issues given his upbringing - but he's unlikely to change at all because he sees himself as right, righteous, and functioning well. He pushes it all down, slaps a smooth veneer on top and calls it good.

Kara on the other hand has some sense of understanding that she's frakked up. She *could* change given the right circumstances. Sam has the right idea on how to handle her but he's missing some piece. I think part of it is a lack of respect. And there really is no love without respect. If I was Sam's bestie I'd be telling him to leave that cheating wife of his in his dust. Shoot, I'd be saying the same if I was Zak's friend.

So, to answer your question, I don't think it's fair to ask Lee to change (or I should say to change first, because Kara does change as well by the end of the fic) BUT I don't see how it'd work otherwise. I think if the personalities were reversed we'd be expecting Kara to change instead.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

It sounds like you are saying that you WANT Lee to change more because he has some serious flaws and has a history of treating women badly. I can see that. I think you are also saying that Lee has no insight into his flaws and that he is self-centered. I can see that, as well. And yes, canon does present their relationship as very flawed and making a relationship work early in the show would have been nearly impossible.

I guess I wonder why you'd expect Kara to be able to change but not Lee? Is it a matter of insight, as you have said? Further, do you think Lee did change in canon to be more accepting of Kara (Islanded)? If so, how did that happen? (These questions are not challenging your view, but striving to understand. Thanks!)

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

That's a really interesting insight. That Lee is possibly unable to change because he doesn't acknowledge there's any problem with what he's doing and how he's living most of the time. (It's ironic that the one thing he does acknowledge there's a problem with is cheating with Kara--which is the truest outlet/demonstration of his real feelings probably?)

I always found the deleted scene in Daybreak where Kara yells at Bill "No wonder Lee is so frakked up" to be really really interesting. Because I wondered where that was coming from--I never got the impression that Kara really thought Lee *was* frakked up before that line (probably because fanon has her putting him on a bit of a pedestal and believing she isn't good enough for him a lot of the time), but I do think she's always more of a realist and a good observer of people and the way they work (though it doesn't always benefit her to have that knowledge) so the line doesn't ring as untrue to me, just...interesting to have her acknowledge that.

I have probably gotten really off course here. Sorry!

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

I think it's more about *him* and his own issues. And I'm not shocked that he has these issues given his upbringing - but he's unlikely to change at all because he sees himself as right, righteous, and functioning well. He pushes it all down, slaps a smooth veneer on top and calls it good.

Geez louise. And in that sense he and Bill are pretty much the same person. Gah. Great insight.

And I agree that canon!Lee is terrible boyfriend material in so many ways. He's such a difficult person to get close to-- in some ways much more difficult than Kara. Much colder and more exacting and unforgiving. He's a difficult, difficult character. (But I think it's also what makes him so wonderfully compelling. :)

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

You have raised some really interesting points, especially about the fact they had so many issues as individuals that it would make it nearly impossible for them to have healthy relationships. As a matter of fact, neither of the key relationships in both their lives were exactly healthy (be it with their parents or their significant others). However, I don't think they would never be able to have a healthy relationship with each other.

I think it was possible. As long as they dealt with at least some of their issues as individuals. Their biggest problem didn't come from the other,but rather from inside and that's why their relationships (with everybody) were so complicated.

Having said that, I myself believe that people don't really change. But I also believe they can evolve. They can become better versions of themselves. As long as there is some good raw materials to work with, so to speak. And I think that is the case with both Kara and Lee. Dispite their numerous flaws, they are inherently good people. That's why I wouldn't go so far as to say I wouldn't be in a relationship with Lee for anything.

I mean, knowing what we know about him, I wouldn't want a relationship with him because I know he loves someone else. That brings its own set of issues to the table and I admit he didn't deal with it in any way I would support, but I don't see any terribly demeaning character flaw there. If I were Dualla's friend and I would say "Leave him. Why did you marry him in the first place? You knew better." That she stayed with him says as much about her as it says about him. Yes, he was weak and awful there, but not out of any real intention to hurt her (though he did, of course) or to have his flings behind her back or anything like that. The Gianne thing is too much of a mystery to discuss, so I won't go there. I mysefl would have a bigger problem justifying Kara's behaviour towards Sam during their marriage. But it's hard to really say because we also know almost nothing about that. I just don't believe Sam was ever Ok with her behavior - even if we are to believe she cheated on him kind of regularly.

I totally agree that the first step to change is to admit there is a problem. Kara realized she was frakked up. However, considering her self-worth issues were such a huge part of her problems, that is not such a good thing. And that realization didn't really push her to do anything about it - rather than run and killing herself in that maelstrom.

As for Lee, I think overall he does function well, considering everything. And yes, he did see himself as right and righteous sometimes. But then again, sometimes he was right. I don't think he was so unnaware of his issues, though. He was after all depressed at times and felt guilty for some of his choices.

All in all, too bad there wasn't a shrink onboard Galactica. The poor fellow with have his hands full.

OT (kinda)

[n-e-star.livejournal.com]

I need help filling a wish.

Claimed a wallpaper and was asked for Hot Arms. All I can think of is Lee in the mini, but the stupid bars are in the way and Kara's you can't really see.

What other episodes should I be looking at?

Re: OT (kinda)

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Oooooooh-- my favorite arms ever I think are right at the beginning of season 2 when his dad's just been shot and he's in the brig. Plus he's all bloodied up for good measure. *g*

So "Scattered" I think?

Re: OT (kinda)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Black Market (gym scene with Dee), KLG1 (boxing scene with Adama), Final Cut, YCGHA when he's under the viper (before the call with roslin), and UB boxing.

YAY!

Re: OT (kinda)

[plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com]

Final frakkin' Cut! :D

Re: OT (kinda)

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Also Torn--in the gym with Helo after he loses all that weight. hee. And Scar--when he sweeps all that shit off the table while he and Kara are going at it.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

What a fantastic topic! I don't know if we've ever discussed this through the writing/fandom lens. I can't give a full answer right at the moment, but I'm sitting here wondering how AU versus canon stories might change the analysis. I find myself constantly pulling pilots out of canon context because I find them easier to "work on" outside of canon and now I'm left thinking about why I do this. I'll be back later with more thoughts but I just wanted to say AWESOME TOPIC!


:D

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

YAY! I look forward to hearing your thoughts. I'd love to talk about the distinctions between AU and canon fic as they relate to the question (which I THINK is another point you are making?) :D

[plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com]

Take this with a grain of salt because I've written exacty two fics that deal with K/L in a meaty, non-drabbly way, but I think they both have to change. I don't think it's fair to make Lee wait, but considering where in canon you come at it from, he has his own share of problems. That's why I really like post-canon or AU here - post-canon especially because it's so hard for me to picture them getting their act together at most points in the show.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

I think you're on to something here. And they definitely both have issues out the wazoo (which often exacerbate the other). This too is why I tend to leave canon alone and come at K/L stories from outside that context-- not ignoring canon, but not trying to change it either.

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

I think what I expect from Lee is less waiting for Kara to change and more accepting that she won't. In the one happy ending fic I wrote for them The Return (http://deborah-judge.livejournal.com/222899.html), I think I was using her angel-ness as a sort of metaphor and shorthand for all the things that don't match between them and all her various Stuff that is going to get in the way of her having the sort of conventional relationship Lee would want. And if he wants to be with her in that universe he's going to have to accept that she's not what he wants her to be. I think if he could do that she'd have an easier time not harming him and pushing him away, because I think part of what she fears about being in a relationship with him is precisely that it will change her in ways that will compromise other parts of what she is and what she has to do.

And yeah, that's a lot to expect from Lee. Maybe too much. And it is unfair that he has to accept more difficult things with her than she has to accept with him. I have written Kara in that sort of radical acceptance in her other relationships, choosing to be with Sam even knowing that he's going to stay in Hybrid form and they'll never have normal sex (or for that matter a normal conversation), choosing to be with Leoben even though he'll never stop promoting religious beliefs that she finds abhorrent. But I don't think she'd have to accept anything quite so foreign to her nature in order to be with Lee.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

he wants to be with her in that universe he's going to have to accept that she's not what he wants her to be.

This is one of the essential problems with changing Lee in fic - he becomes accepting and patient and forgiving. Canon!Lee (at least pre-Maelstrom) had a hard time being any of these things. It was easier for him to cut and run than to cope with the very difficult notion of committing to his lover and rejecting his wife. Not among his finest moments, but hanging onto his fear and sense of self-protection was pretty much all that he'd been doing for months. Thanks for your insights!

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I think we do expect Lee to make the first move/change/be the catalyst in forcing Kara's hand. It's not fair, but I agree with onlyariana that it's more...logical given his personality traits (he has an idealism, a hopefulness, that aside from post-Pegasus depression, he seems to manage to always retain) and Kara's kind of incontrovertable belief that she will fuck things up in life in general and specifically if she tries to reach for happiness with him. (I have a whole rant on that latter bit because I really want to know how Kara managed to convince herself that happiness was possible with Zak and Sam but not Lee. Intellectually I know the likely reasons, but emotionally it just wounds and baffles me and makes me want to scream.)

I know when I write canon fic that I do tend to give Lee a lot of patience and often a lot of speechifying about loving Kara and wanting her to come around. I have done the opposite on occasion, but Kara isn't a speechifier. She's just not. So for her it's more about actions. She takes action with him rather than declaring her love with words. She kisses him, or fraks him, or puts a gun in his hand and makes him train it on her or proposes marriage or whatever.

I guess I give her a lot of vulnerability and doubt that Lee would really want her. That "Are you sure I'm what you want?" really rings in my head often, as maybe the most naked and truest of Kara's fears ever put into words. I always see that as a hurdle Lee needs to get her past, fair or not. I know he has the same fear, but I think canon shows he is willing to conquer it to have her, whereas Kara can't or didn't. And that sticks with me.

I think if Lee was a woman and Kara was a man...it would fit the more typical stereotype of a girl pining for an unable-to-commit playboy. It's hard to imagine because it would change the entire tenor of their relationship in so many ways I guess.

Unlike I think most of the current day shippers though, I don't find them ill-suited and I absolutely believe they could have had a healthy relationship, and not necessarily only after they talked out a bunch of shit or whatever. Look at the way they are in S4 & S4.5. And Kara didn't necessarily need to die either for that to happen. Her death wouldn't change anything. What if she hadn't? What if it had just been a near-death thing? She does pull out of that maelstrom and comes back, and Lee tackleglomps her in front of everyone. But she does all the other things she does and Bill imprisons her and Lee goes to her to say goodbye, etc. etc. It could all unfold the exact same way in canon, and instead of her poofing at the end, she could just take Lee's hand and they could walk off into the field together, all "Guess it's just you and me now."

I believe they learned how to be supportive and mature in the last season(s) of the show, and they're the healthiest people in each others' lives at that point. They could've just went on from there, continuing to be awesome and happy. Sigh.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I totally believe they could have been happy together, but yes, later in the show when they'd both grown and changed. Sadly, the Kara we got after Maelstrom is hard for me to see as Kara, so IDK. Sometimes I have to believe she is the Kara we know because I so much want her to be alive, but another part of me knows that she died. So, Lee changing after that doesn't matter much to the ship. IDK. I'm confusing my own self.

Relationship Inequality & the Perilous Invocation of the Perfect Boyfriend

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Okay so here we go....

First, a confession. I'm okay with canon.

Not in the gender!fail, sexuality!fail, religion!fail, wimmins!fail, narrative!fail, plot!fail, science!fail sense-- believe me, I can more than appreciate all the shit that went wrong as the show wrapped things up. But I'm talking pilots here. I'm okay with their canon story in the sense that I don't see the need or the point in fixing it. For numerous reasons, but mostly it comes down to personal preference issues--- I find canon too claustrophobic, I don't want to take the trouble to rewrite it (and many before and after me have done a great job of this so there's no need piling on) and in short I just don't feel compelled to go there.

I'd rather go at pilots from AU perspective that takes what happens and builds on it. And there's a big reason for this-- there's a reason I won't touch pre-season 4 pilots except in a drabble or a oneshot: THEIR RESPECTIVE ISSUES ARE ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO OVERCOME. I say almost because it can be done and it can be done well, but it's too much time/energy/work for my taste. Maybe there was hope for them in season 1 (if you can get them over the Zak guilt/undisclosed whatnot), but after KLGII you are fighting an uphill battle big time. And that runs all the way to the back half of S3. I'd say up until Maelstrom actually. That's the first hint of a maturity between them in approaching how they relate to each other.

And I feel like if you try to go after them prior to this time, you run the risk of getting bogged down in relationship inequiality-ville (which is where I think our lovely host was going with this comment). And Lee usually bears the brunt of this because although he does have issues, Kara inevitably has more. (I'm sorry, she just does.)

And so there is a temptation to pedalstalize him. To make him infinitely loving and paitent and caring and fill-in-the-blank. And this is a very slippery slope, my friends because at that point he's about one step away from becoming Perfect Boyfriend material (which in turn creates two problems: (i) the heroine doesn't actually have to resolve her issues because her shit is 'accepted' and 'approved' by said PB, and (ii) the PB becomes a kind of paternalistic savior from her ills (ie, "His love has made me whole!") which is just another expression of getting you a big strong man to save the day. I find both of these repugnant and frankly offensive as a person who possesses ovaries. For the love of all that is holy, don't let my shit slide and tell me it's all good even while I'm acting horribly (advance apologies to the Kara/Sam fans, but this is exactly why I can't love them together), but also don't seek to save me simply by being your perfect wonderful self (ie, don't give me perfect and flawless Lee Adama who saves Kara simply from the force of his love and goodness.) Both outcomes are flat and emotioanlly unsatisfying for me.

So I guess to sum it up, I think these problems can be potential pitfalls in canon-focused fic. The good news is that it's very rare that these issues are as prounounced as I've described them here (we are blessed with an abundance of nuance in our writings and thank the gods for that), but it's something to be wary of. Constant vigilance and all that. (Or if you're like me, say screw all that hard stuff and go straight to AU and play with crazyspacemagic and see how many tropes you can throw in a blender and stand on their head.)

Thoughts, I have them. ;)


ETA: On the being okay with pilots canon thing-- See Tara's last 2 paragraphs above. I'm okay right up until the point they didn't just end up together (b/c really, they did the hard work and got to good places and amen to everything she says). The blew it on the K/L endgame when it came right down to it. So canon, minus the last 30 minutes is what I was getting at. You can work with those last 30 minutes, but I think you've got to pull some AU in there-- and that's another discussion entirely.

Re: Relationship Inequality & the Perilous Invocation of the Perfect Boyfriend

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

And so there is a temptation to pedalstalize him. To make him infinitely loving and paitent and caring and fill-in-the-blank. And this is a very slippery slope, my friends because at that point he's about one step away from becoming Perfect Boyfriend material (which in turn creates two problems: (i) the heroine doesn't actually have to resolve her issues because her shit is 'accepted' and 'approved' by said PB, and (ii) the PB becomes a kind of paternalistic savior from her ills (ie, "His love has made me whole!") which is just another expression of getting you a big strong man to save the day. I find both of these repugnant and frankly offensive as a person who possesses ovaries. For the love of all that is holy, don't let my shit slide and tell me it's all good even while I'm acting horribly (advance apologies to the Kara/Sam fans, but this is exactly why I can't love them together), but also don't seek to save me simply by being your perfect wonderful self (ie, don't give me perfect and flawless Lee Adama who saves Kara simply from the force of his love and goodness.) Both outcomes are flat and emotioanlly unsatisfying for me.

This is a great summary of why changing Lee too much doesn't work. I don't want him to be endlessly patient and forgiving. I want him to be a check and balance for Kara, as she is for him. I want them to call each other out and be EQUAL in their power. I want Kara to help herself be more whole and if Lee is the one who pushes her to change, then I am okay with that. I've been in relationships with relatively non-assertive men. It doesn't work and the disrespect goes off the charts. Kara, for all that she railed against Lee, respected him in a way she never really respected Sam. I think Sam deserved more respect than she showed him, but that's her flaw, too. I really actually love Lee exactly the way he is, flaws and all, and I adore his journey until mid-S4. He did the work and suffered, just as Kara did. The fact that neither got the payoff is the fucking pits. Still as heartbreaking nearly three years later as it was when I first saw it. :(

Thanks so much for writing all this! <3

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

It is rather odd that Lee feels so controlling and possessive of Kara, long before their declarations on New Caprica.

I imagine a lot of that is down to her former relationship with Zak, for so many reasons. Guilt, jealousy, protection issues, you could dig for ages and not unearth all the complicated layers of how Lee Adama probably felt about his brother's girlfriend after that first meeting. (And I assume he and Kara had a subsequent friendship of sorts due to the canon cues.)

If you erased that framework of their meeting each other and their backstory--everything would be different about their dynamic I think. That weirdly propietary/protective thing informs it all--and then it's further compounded by his own deep(ly repressed) feelings for Kara.

ETA: That last bit you said--about Kara not having peace. I always think that's why their resolution had to happen at the very end of the show--after she finds Earth. Then she's ready. She could've/should've earned her happiness (in her own mind) by saving the world. They just fouled it up by making her be dead.

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

ok, I sort of have something to say/comment on everything that was previously said but if start that I'll spam the thread and never finish. So, I'll try to answer your original question from my own POV as mainly a reader of fanfiction. I say mainly because if it wasn't for the fact that this is sort of my 3rd language I would have probably tried my hand at writing at some point.

So, you ask
Do we expect too much of Lee?

And I will say YES. we sort of do. If he would be a normal guy - at work for example - we would not expect him to do everything - professionally or personally. At least I wouldn't. But when we think of him as a fictional character we do tend to expect perfection. and he is far from it. he has issues. lots and lots of issues.
speaking strictly of his canon relationships we tend to judge everything that he does. and even if I do accuse him of mistreating Dee I do so reluctantly after I saw that deleted scene where she accepts his marriage proposal. Because - pardon me, or accuse me of being misogynistic (you won't be the first) she asks for it. and even more, she accepts it. I strongly believe that if she would have said something he would have at least treat her with more respect. in that scene at Joe's when they are at the table and he keeps staring at Kara - love or no love, i would have slapped him and he would have slapped outside of the door - without a doormat. But I going OT here.

going back to his relationship with Kara - yes, we expect him to be patient, or more patient than her because he is like that. he proves it in canon. but no, it's not fair to expect him to wait her like forever. then again I'm the crazy person who is actually on his side when dealing with his refusal when Kara comes to him after EoJ. in canon he is understanding to a point but not really very patient. then again, is hard to be patient at the end of the worlds.

in fiction, usually writers tend to make him more understanding but when they make him being too understating and too patient it doesn't ring true. Because it's sort of OOC and unnatural. how patient is a man (or woman) supposed to be before becoming a doormat?

Additionally, if their genders were reversed, would we expect Lee to wait for Kara in the same way or would we consider that unfitting or stereotypical for a woman to wait for a man to sort out his issues?

i like to think that personally I can go beyond gender when reading/watching something. I know that I try but I'm not sure that I manage that 100%. Maybe an 80% which I consider to be higher than the average and that because I work in an environment where gender is really not an issue.

Does it uphold the expectation that it is Lee who changes to make their relationship work?

in canon i think that he is willing to do it (to some extent) but he is not really given the opportunity to do it. at least, not before Kara dies and then comes back. because he does change a lot in that time. because she dies or because he just matures in a natural way during the last months of war or i don't even know why but he does. he is a very different man at the end of the series from the one at the beginning. but i do not believe that he changes to make THEM work. that might have been a very happy outcome if the whole poof craziness wouldn't have happened.

in fiction some writers make him change very often but not always in a credible way. again, for me it's a question of how much. if you make your character change too much then he sort of stops being that character.

i guess this is the moment when I should stop this crazy comment that stopped making sense even for me at some point. feel free to ignore me.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

These are great thoughts and I agree with so many. I thin if we make Lee too patient, then we lose the spark and fire of their relationship. For me, it turns Kara/Lee into something less interesting. I do write fic that changes Lee in the ways we're talking about, but I also write Lee (mostly) as someone enormously flawed who needs to fix his own frak ups to make things work. I enjoy fics that show Lee as patient, etc., just as much as I like Alpha!Lee, but ultimately, I enjoy writing and reading fics that show how Lee (and Kara) naturally and through external events FIX THEMSELVES to be together. Thanks, bb!

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

I tried to make them both change and grow, but I tackled Kara first. Relationships require meeting halfway, and you can't meet if one half is always running away. Kara has more implicit trust than Lee does in general, so I tried to bring that to the fore and use it as the jumping-off point.

That said, I think as a group we tend to see Lee as both 1) more smitten and so more willing to change and also 2) less broken and so more able to change. I do not personally espouse this view, but I feel like that's where the (possibly even subconscious) theory that leads to the our collective demands on Lee.

And no. I don't think it's actually fair. Poor Lee.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

I think as a group we tend to see Lee as both 1) more smitten and so more willing to change

Great point. I was thinking about it in terms that we see Lee as being more committed, but I think it all stems from the same idea. And it's weird that fanon sees him as being more in touch with his feelings b/c canon gives us very mixed signals on this (helooo UBEX?) But I've always kind of imagined Lee as being someone who onecs he's committed to an idea isn't going to back down. And it may be true on some levels but I'm not always sure that's accurate in the personal realm. Interesting food for thought.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I've read everyone's comments and it seems to me that my question of "Do we expect too much of Lee?" turns out to be flawed. It seems that the real question is "Why do we need to change Lee?"

In thinking about my original question, I forgot that a lot of people have significant issues with Lee as a character and express a need for him to change. I guess what strikes me about many of the comments above is that only a few have said that Kara might need to change, too. Now, I know that was not the point of my question, but I wonder if they are part and parcel of the same question: Why are we compelled to change one or the other or both to make the romance work?

Is there a reason that we as a fandom tend to change Lee instead of Kara? Is it that somehow changing Kara in fic seems OOC? Is it that Lee is better equipped to change because he is healthier in many ways? IDK.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's so much that they need to *change* as they both need to access, to express and to indulge in the love they already feel and have felt all along. People who don't like K/L or think they're pretty unhealthy for each other tend to focus on the fact that they "fight all the time", and they fight pretty explosively, emotional and physical punches being thrown. But what about how they work really well together, almost unconsciously handing guns and ammo to each other without a word on Kobol, flying together and carrying out missions, wrangling Kat in Final Cut, Doing security detail and interrogation on Colonial One, finishing each other's sentences when they present the strike plan in Daybreak, backing each other up in the mutiny. And even emotionally, being playful together on Colonial One, trying to listen and comfort each other in Home, in Scar, in Res Ship 1 and 2, at the end of Captain's Hand, in Maelstrom. I guess all that is just to say--I think it's already all there for them. They just have to be open to being like that all the time. To believe they can have it, that they deserve that kind of happiness. That it can be that easy for them.

Kara's fear does seem like the biggest obstacle to that, to me, because she seems very aware of her feelings, whereas Lee is at first obtuse (according to him in UB) and then when he finally figures it out, he is willing to take a chance (even tho it's too late). So Kara needs to get past the fear, but how will that change come about unless Lee prompts it? I'm not sure. She needs to know he's sure she's what he wants. And I don't think Kara ever fully believes that. Even after he says he was afraid to admit he needed her. I mean to her--if he can't admit he needs her--doesn't that mean she's a source of shame for him maybe? That he can't admit it? So I think that's part of why we--or at least why I often write him declaring she is worth it, he does love her beyond reason, etc.

ETA: In real life, would a person like Kara be able to commit fairly easily to other people as well? Or would she be afraid of that commitment in all her relationships? I mean short of therapy (which would never happen on BSG) how does a person change? Time? A big event that is a catalyst? The slow drip-drip of patient love making you realize/accept it's a good thing? The assurance that the love you crave is unconditional, can't be frakked up, won't ever be taken back? That last one Lee eventually gets to--at the end of S4 which is why their lack of happy ending is so damn egregious.


Sometimes I do wonder why she needs that. Why she can't be the one to put it out there first. Why she's not confident enough to go to him and declare her feelings and pursue him, like she would with any other guy. Why can't it be as seemingly easy as it was with Sam and Zak? IDK the answer to that question. Again I think the *forbidden* beginning to their relationship might have something to do with it. She knew early on it was wrong to have those feelings so she squashed them? Although, interestingly I think Kara was very obvious--far more than Lee-- in S1 with her feelings. Watch her face at the end of the mini scene when he comes back from the dead, after Lee walks away. She teased him about giving her a bath! She wore a pretty dress for him! She can't stop grinning at him after the Tylium mission and gives him her best cigar! But I think what someone said upthread about everything changing as of KLG1--that's pretty true. That's where it all gets serious and their dynamic changes and Kara goes off and meets Anders who becomes the Insta-Love of Her Life (per canon) and Lee becomes the one more obviously pining. After that we don't see Kara emotionally needing/wanting Lee until...Res Ship I and then Captain's Hand, I guess?

Hmm. That was a big rambling mess. I'm not sure I answered your questions coherently or at all. It's very interesting to try to capture though. :)