DPP: Daybreak

[lizziec]

Monday's DPP was Celebrations. We have lots of prompts, and one lovely ficlet by kballgetlost. Please go leave some love in the form of reviews :)

Tuesday was pilots picspam day, and there are some glorious pilots moments. Stop by and revel in the pilot-y joy.

Yesterday was Interventions - some really interesting points of intervention in pilots relationship came up :)

Today we're looking at Daybreak. I know, I'm really sorry to do this to you...

Yesterday Mark Does Stuff finished watching allllll of BSG, so I thought this would be a good time to revisit how we see events in Daybreak - and how we saw them when we first watched it. Included under the cut are some of the things that Mark says about our pilots in his Daybreak reviews to get us started (please note, this is not an excuse to get personal, just a way for us to talk about how each of us feel about the ending based on what someone else thinks).

Mark Watches Daybreak Part I

On faith in people and what Kara needed to hear:

I think the first sign that I should have a box of tissues ready was when Adama told Starbuck that he did know what she was: his daughter. Like Lee’s statement before, it’s unconditional love for her, and it’s something that she needed more than anything else.

Mark Watches Daybreak Part II

On the flashbacks:

Part two opens with flashbacks, and in a weird way, it was like another reminder that these characters’ stories were coming to an end. It’s not like this whole goddamn episode didn’t do that, but I realized that this would probably be the last time I’d see Adama and Tigh drunk together. (Side note: Tigh drunk screaming will never not be the most hilarious thing this show has ever produced ever. Which is perfectly fine, by the way, because I love the inclusion of humor that we see here. MORE ON THAT IN A SECOND.) This was the last time I’d see Starbuck and Lee make poor choices in a relationship and awkwardly flirt with one another. This was the last time I’d see Roslin diving headlong into an uncomfortable situation just for the hell of it. This was the last time I’d see Adama in the gutter, looking up at the stars. (OH GOD AN OSCAR WILDE REFERENCE, holy fuck I love this show.)

On Romo becoming president:

But before I could get any sadder, the episode cuts to Lee making Romo Lampkin THE FUCKING PRESIDENT. I’m sorry, this is SO GODDAMN FUNNY TO ME. I mean, what could be more irritating for the man than having to be President? Lee, you are a genius and I love you for it forever.

On not telling Boomer "the plan":

I was thankful for Starbuck’s retort about not telling Boomer “the plan” because it broke the painful awkwardness at just the right moment.

Mark Watches Daybreak Part III

On the blind jump to the Watchtower co-ordinates:

And then Adama orders Starbuck to make a blind jump, and then my entire brain collapses from what transpires from this order. Those notes that made no sense to her or to Cavil turn out to work perfectly as FTL coordinates. (No, seriously, this blog entry has made me love Bear McCreary from now until the universe ceases to be.) I honestly adore how this jump comes with sets of flashbacks: we see her find her body on Earth. We see Leoben call her an angel. We see her tell Lee Adama that she thinks about death every time she gets into the cockpit. We see her claim that her biggest fear is being forgotten. So I started to wonder if any of this were true, or if Kara Thrace had found a way to be remembered.

On Kara's end:

Lee and Kara follow Adama as he carries Roslin to his Mark II, and three of them exchange bizarrely-coded goodbyes. Adama knows what takes Lee a few moments to admit: This is the last time they’ll see him. And so his greeting to Starbuck is a reference to something they’ve said all along, and she knows it’s goodbye. As they wave goodbye to Roslin, the scene focuses on Lee and Starbuck, and it’s here that the one major question left for season four is addressed: Starbuck’s identity.

When she tells Lee she’s not coming back, that she feels satisfied that she’s completed something that needs to be done, she questions Lee: What is he going to do with the rest of his life? I was touched that he decided that he didn’t want to just exist and rest and relax; he was on a new world, and that new world inspired a sense of discovery and desire in him, something he’d not experienced in a while. And then he turns to find that Starbuck has simply ceased to exist. I gasped, and then immediately felt so goddamn satisfied by that image of Lee standing amongst the green, waving grass blades in the field. In that one moment, “Maelstrom” was given the weight and emotional force it had when I first watched it. Kara “Starbuck” Thrace’s actions had a consequence, and her death was real and had meaning. There was no shitty retconning of that plot, there was no attempt to deny her agency or free will, and there was no denial of her experiences in season four. They were still real, she still affected people and the fleet, and whatever “power” sent her back to direct those people to Earth never bothered to intervene and control her. She did what she was “destined” to do, and after saying goodbye in her own way to Lee Adama, she was gone.

The truth is that I don’t want to know the details of who she was. I know others do, and I accept that. We want different things from the show. I hate comparing this show to LOST (though the similarities in their series finales are eerily obvious to me), but mythology only matters so much. I want closure on the characters, and Starbuck’s disappearance gives me that. If she was really an angel, spelling that out would have made me feel disappointed. It would have felt cheap and easy.

So what do you think? Does any of it mesh with how you saw the ending, or even still see it? Has your view of Daybreak changed over time? How?



Oh god, my poor poor heart

Comments

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

the last time I’d see Starbuck and Lee ... awkwardly flirt with one another

immediately felt so goddamn satisfied by that image of Lee standing amongst the green, waving grass blades in the field.

There was no shitty retconning of that plot, there was no attempt to deny her agency or free will

(http://www.threadbombing.com/details.php?image_id=3670)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

*NODS*

Really?? *heart breaking into millions of tiny pieces*

Feh.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

EXACTLY.

I'm like.... "Um, Mark? Were we watching the same show?"


**CRICKETS**

[winegums.livejournal.com]

I'm fine with him not approving of Lee and Kara's actions especially considering he was pretty much ship-neutral (apart from Roslin/Adama), and different people have different reactions to the finale. But I still do have a big side-eye for the "there was no retconning/attempt to deny her free will" line, because really?

I'm curious to see what he thinks of Kara's death/resurrection plotline after he's been through Buffy, which despite its flaws executed that part of its story better.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I pretty much disagreed with almost everything Mark said about Kara and Lee in the finale (and at other times). I respect his opinion and it's been fun to tag along, but that ending, the near table!frak and the poof are NOTHING I will every be okay with.

:::::SHOCKED::::::

:::::ENRAGED::::::

:::::DEPRESSED:::::

I'll never get over it.

THE END.

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

I'll never get over it.

That's because you never get over true love.

*joins your 'not over it' club*

Can I be Secretary of Bitter Thoughts?

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Ok, I was reading the recap this morning and all I can think is.. SERIOUSLY? Basically, I disagree with him in pretty much everything.

Especially this: There was no shitty retconning of that plot, there was no attempt to deny her agency or free will

o_O I am baffled. Is he implying that Kara was given any sort of free will? Um, well, fine, I think we read this show differently.

[lizziec]

Is he implying that Kara was given any sort of free will? Um, well, fine, I think we read this show differently.

Yeah :( One of the most distressing things for me about Kara Thrace and Her Special Destiny was the fact I felt she was completely lacking in free will, especially post-maelstrom :(

[winegums.livejournal.com]

no attempt to deny her agency or free will

So making her go poof after she's done with a task that SHE HAD TO KILL HERSELF TO PREPARE FOR is not a denial of her free will?

Fuck everyone.

THE ART OF EPISODE DIVORCE.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

It's one of my favorite-ist posts of all time. I can't resist linking:

http://workerbee73.livejournal.com/17138.html

Written two days after the finale aired (when fandom and Shipper Nation were spiraling into a meltdown the likes of which you cannot imagine. Only the peeps who lived through it know what I'm talking about, and we don't really speak of it--- just raise a glass in silent recognition and shared suffering.)

Re: THE ART OF EPISODE DIVORCE.

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

That was a WONDERFUL post my dear! <3 <3 <3

ROFL over 'magic fucking space music' and 'miscarriages of not enough love'

*snort*

Re: THE ART OF EPISODE DIVORCE.

[winegums.livejournal.com]

I wasn't a part of BSG fandom at the time - heard rumblings that the finale was less than 100%, and stayed resolutely away from it for TWO YEARS after that. Until early this year, BSG for me finished up with Islanded.

I have so much respect for all of Shipper Nation that actually did what I was too cowardly to, and took the blow for the rest of us. And despite all that, y'all stayed in fandom and welcomed the n00bs in. Respect, man. MUCH RESPECT FOR THAT. And LOL FOREVER at 'miscarriages of not enough love'!

[useyourlove.livejournal.com]

Oooo Daybreak--the occurrence that launched a thousand essays and internet fights. ESSAY TIIIIME!!!!

So the first time I watched Daybreak, I was ok with it. I was ok with everything. I think I was mostly just stunned that the show was over and it literally had been giving me anxiety attacks, so it was nice that those had stopped. They were, of course, replaced by random bouts of tears but hey, that's ok.

First off, I think that Kara and Lee were done an extreme disservice in all of Season 4. They are rarely even on screen together which is when their characters are most interesting and most dynamic. The fact that my favorite part of the show is those two should come as no surprise to anyone, so the first time I watched it I lived for their little moments and those were what shined through for me. The second time? I was like "but... where is all my goodness? I REMEMBER MORE GOODNESS." I'm firmly of the belief that viewers were so sick of the Quad of Doom that the writers decided to just essentially drop the entire K/L plot altogether which makes NO logical plot-sense as those two are so wrapped up in one another from second-one that they really don't function properly without each other anymore ("The Son Also Rises" clearly showed us this). Why do I make the point of saying they're my favorite part? Because I think who your favorite characters matters a lot in how you read this entire show. And I don't read it Mark's way at all.

Ok, now for Daybreak itself. The fact that Kara comes back at all is not a shitty retcon. You can't retcon something three episodes later. A retcon usually occurs in a different season entirely because the writers need something to have been different (the Final Five and Daniel are a perfect example of an actual retcon. Oh wait, SO IS ALL OF DAYBREAK.) Clearly, when they killed her they intended for her to be coming back immediately. And Kara disappearing exemplifies free will? Because it's free will to be manipulated into killing yourself, returning, going crazy from being yanked around by mystical forces for a year, and then what? You just disappear whether you want to or not? Daybreak does an extreme disservice to the most vibrant interesting character on the show because--really, when did she ever show any signs of being something other than Kara Thrace? She's still a poor leader, still a drunk, still impulsive. There are no explanations, there is a flashback suggesting that--because Lee and Kara made a poor decision under the influence--they do not deserve to be together (because, yeah, that one poor decision is so much worse than EVERYTHING ELSE OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DONE?! Baltar gets a happy ending for fu--um... Frak's sake. Aherm.) I just don't buy the whole "angel" thing. The writers were lazy and couldn't think up a real explanation. That's my only conclusion.

In fact, on a second watch, I didn't buy any of the finale at all. My skepticism was fueled by too much meta and shipper-rage, but it's entirely nonsensical. What it comes down to is this: they made the answer to every single thing "oh, god did it." That is the laziest thing I've ever heard in my life. You can't think up a better explanation for things than god did it??? DUDE I CAN THINK UP SOMETHING BETTER THAN THAT IN FIVE MINUTES. My theories were better than that.

Anyway, back to Kara and Lee. I'm cool with them not ever being together. That's just them. I'm ok with them getting no happy ending. Who ever expected them to get one? They told us way back in Season 2 "bright shiny futures are overrated anyway." But no affection? No anything except in flashbacks? Nothing. No begging her not to leave or a hug or anything? And then POOF. She just disappears? HOW DOES THAT INSTILL SATISFACTION IN ANYONE? I ASK YOU! All it instills in me is deep depression, frustration that my favorite character is a gaping plot hole, and the unshakable notion that Lee goes and climbs his mountain--only to jump off of it when he gets to the top.

So much more. I HAVE SO MUCH MORE TO SAY ABOUT THIS. But it won't come out of my brain fast enough and I need to go to class. *pouts*

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

It seems you have given into the rant that I was trying to resist. *pets you*

because Lee and Kara made a poor decision under the influence--they do not deserve to be together (because, yeah, that one poor decision is so much worse than EVERYTHING ELSE OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DONE?!

I know. It's sad. EVERYONE got endings! EVERYONE! Even if they hurt, they got actual endings. But not pilots.

But no affection? No anything except in flashbacks? Nothing. No begging her not to leave or a hug or anything? And then POOF. She just disappears? HOW DOES THAT INSTILL SATISFACTION IN ANYONE? I ASK YOU! All it instills in me is deep depression, frustration that my favorite character is a gaping plot hole, and the unshakable notion that Lee goes and climbs his mountain--only to jump off of it when he gets to the top.

Try not to think about it too much. That way lies only rage and sadness.

Here try this . . .

Pilots in a field on Earth.

Lee: My first memory of my father is watching him fly away on a big plane and wondering when he'd be coming back. He's not coming back this time.

Kara: Maybe he will. He can't grieve forever, Lee.

(skipping Kara's crap about being done with journeys)

Kara: So what about you? What are you gonna do? (skip stupid line about 'today is the first day of the rest of your life' cuz BARF!)

Lee: I always thought after this I'd kick back, relax, spend the rest of my days doing the absolute minimum possible.

Kara: And now that you're here?

Lee: I wanna explore! I wanna the climb mountains, I wanna the cross oceans. Gods, I can't believe I'm saying this. It sounds so exhausting. I must be crazy.

Kara: *laughs* Well, we can't have you running off playing explorer all alone. Guess I'd better come along. You could use someone who knows what they're doing out there..

Lee: *smiles knowingly* My hero.

Kara: You know it.

They both look out at small hill behind them.

Lee: Race you to the top?

She's already running. He chases after her.

Lee: Cheater!

[kl-shipper1.livejournal.com]

So the first time I watched Daybreak, I was ok with it. I was ok with everything. I think I was mostly just stunned that the show was over and it literally had been giving me anxiety attacks, so it was nice that those had stopped. They were, of course, replaced by random bouts of tears but hey, that's ok.

I totally get what you mean. The first (and only) time I watched Daybreak, I was pretty much in shock that BSG was actually over, and because I didn't really think about what the show gave Lee and Kara for an ending, I was pretty OK with it. But as that shock wore off, I began to think about it more... and realized what a crap, retcon-y ending we (and K & L) were handed and expected to buy. Hence the beginning of the rage, rants, and general anger.

[wicked-sassy.livejournal.com]

I've only seen the entire show once--I borrowed the first season on DVD from the library and promptly spent many hours indoors blasting through the whole series. So I haven't rewatched it yet and haven't formed as coherent of a response as many other folks.

That said, I hated the way they ended Kara's storyline and left Lee to go do his mountain-climbing whateverthefrak. Um, no, TPTB. Kara post-Maelstrom as an angel/ god-toy/ destiny-fulfilling whatever? That didn't work for me at all. DO NOT LIKE THE POOF. I like fics that rewrite the ending to something else more satisfying.

I also really found the bit in New York City with HeadSix and Baltar beyond cheesy and grandiosely self-serving.

Yes, I’ll take the OTHER side of this.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

Okay, guys, I’m going to jump off the edge here which (I know, I know) none of you are expecting ;)

So here’s my take on things.

First – I don’t disagree with any of your concerns. If you ship Kara / Lee this ending of the series is the end. It leaves our two favourite characters in a place where there ISN’T a possibility of a happy ending... they cannot be together, and Lee is left alone and bereft in the field. It still tears me apart to watch that scene from Daybreak... and while I love many aspects of the finale, that scene still guts me every time. In fact, I feel raw even talking about it.

*SOBS*

And NOW the rest of my thoughts...

I STILL LOVED MARK’S COMMENTARY.

The general rage that Mark might not feel the same things as me (or you) bothers me. It does. And I'll tell you why... the truth is, for all intents and purposes, he isn’t watching the same show as you. Mark didn’t ship Kara / Lee; he shipped Adama / Roslin. So for us to expect him to have the same emotional response to the series’ ending isn’t fair. I don’t hold it against Caprica / Gaius shippers for loving the ending – they should! I also don’t begrudge Kara / Sam shippers for despising the ending because of what it did to that pairing. It makes just as much sense to me.

We all come from different places of interest: there isn’t ONE right answer.

What it all comes down to, is that we bring our own beliefs, thoughts, emotions and experiences to whatever piece of literature we are reading. I have been following along with Mark and his personal arc for Kara comes from a connection to her as an individual (IMO) not as a particular pairing. The affair between Kara / Lee was the tipping point for him... he just couldn’t ship them after that (again, just IMO). And on that vein, I’d like to point out how many people in this comm have HUGE issues with the on-the-table-frak. (That gut response of “it couldn’t happen” that so many K / L shippers have is the flip side of Mark’s own reaction.) It all depends on your prerogative and to a degree, the ships you happen to be invested in.

I honestly believe that Mark really DOES see Kara ending as the culmination of her decision and while I may not agree with everything he says – I can certainly see why he says it. It’s his opinion. You can’t fault him on it. (Or maybe you can... but then by that logic, everyone who loved the finale can fault YOU on yours.)

Anyhow, that’s my big thought for the day. And now I’m going to go write some fic to – as I described it yesterday – give solace to my soul.

Be awesome, peeps! KAG :D

Re: Yes, I’ll take the OTHER side of this.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I’ll be very brief because I don’t have much time to discuss sadly, but I am dropping my two cents. I definitely see your point. Anyway, I have to say, the thing that bothers me about Mark’s review is that he doesn’t seem to be critical or analytic. He doesn’t question anything and goes along with everything RDM and company gave us. Which is Ok, everyone is entitled to have their own opinions and I respect that, but I can’t take his review too seriously, frankly. As for the shipping factor as a crucial point in everyone’s taking on the finale? Well, that’s true to a certain extent. I was not happy with Kara and Lee’s ending and I would definitely have been more emotionally satisfied with a real closure for them, but the BSG ending, on a narrative level, had much bigger problems than that in my opinion.

Re: Yes, I’ll take the OTHER side of this.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I don't see any rage directed at Mark. I see a lot of confusion/disinterest that he could read it that way and a lot of "we just have totally different ways of reading it." (And Dana's rage is for the show, not Mark's reviews.)

I don't see why it's not fair game to say "I don't like his opinion." I'm sure if he were to read mine, he would say the same. ;)

Re: Yes, I’ll take the OTHER side of this.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

You initiated a heavy discussion, bb.

So here are my humble two cents.

First of all, let me say I agree with what you said about this being a discussion comm and therefore we should expect and encourage different opinions to be discussed. The more the better, right? I'm not saying that doesn't happen here (far from it) but I do feel people tend to agree a lot. After all, we are all pilot shippers and that means we all come from a similar basic frame of mind to beging with.

Now, having said that, I didn't feel there was a general rage at Mark's ideas exactly. I mean, I felt the old rage at the finale came back and people feel strongly about that still (myself included, although I have to say, after reading so many fics/analysis and so many people giving their interpretation of it, it hurts less now than it did in the past - I still hate it, but my biggest issue with BSG is Kara's death more than anything else). Anyway, it's clear most people didn't agree with him but I didn't read anything into that, really.

I don't think there's anything wrong about trying to find faul in someone's opinion. Not for the sake of it, or just to spite someone or anythink like that, mind you. I think discussing something is often an exercise in finding fault in other people's opinion (and having them trying to do the same with yours - that's the fun of it). Just yesterday, I was watching an interview with a famous Brazilian journalist. She hosts a renowned talk show and she was talking about how she loves arguing with people and questioning their points of view. She said if the person she was interviewing was able to convince her of their point, she would be glad because she would have learned something new. If they didn't , she would be glad because she would have won the debate. So, it is always a win-win situation.

As for Mark, I didn't read all his reviews, but I usually enjoyed the ones I did, even when I didn't agree. I found his enthusiasm and astonishment so entertaining. It reminded me of my own excitement when I watched the episodes for the first time. And boy, was he excited about everything!LOL.

I do think he is able to find logic and meaning in things that make little sense to me. He didn't find or didn't mind all the holes in the plots that I find. But then, again, he has just watched the whole thing and hasn't been obsessing about things for months and months and discussing every single detail as we have. If it weren't for the discussions in this forum and in LAD and KTL, and the endless fics I've read, there were lots of insights about the plots and the characters that would never have occurred to me. On the other hand, since most of what I read and discuss has to do with pilots, I liked reading his opinions on other characters/plotlines that I often don't pay too much attention to.

I like what he said about Lee's ending (that he he decided that he didn’t want to just exist and rest and relax; he was on a new world, and that new world inspired a sense of discovery and desire in him, something he’d not experienced in a while.) I really fail to see how he interpreted Kara's ending as free will at all. He didn't really explain his reasoning, though. I do agree with what someone has said - it's difficult to separate his opinions from his reactions because he is so emotional about them most of the time.

Re: Yes, I’ll take the OTHER side of this.

[lizziec]

I want to thank you for posting this cos when I posted this topic I honestly, truly didn't want it to turn into a free for all attack against Mark because while I agree with little he wrote as he got further in (as a K/L shipper those episodes get so painful for me :( ), his enthusiasm made me flashback to when I was first watching BSG.

My experience of watching BSG was much more like Mark's, in that I didn't watch it in real time - I mainlined it very quickly and didn't actually think too much about all the various dropped plotlines and fudged endings as I went along and was just incredibly enthusiastic.

I even liked Daybreak in the first two days or so after I saw it, while I was still completely bowled over by the emotions of the thing.

Then the emotion wore off and I started to think properly about s3, s4 and my ship in particular and everything started to lose its shine and I started to get jaded.

So I loved Mark's reviews for taking me back to the time before I was jaded. I also suspect that his views will change at least a little over time as he has more time to think about what he experienced, because from my experience thought processes and feelings are very much different when you're in the middle of an intense watching period than they are when you're outside it.

[kballgetlost.livejournal.com]

Oooh boy....well ok I'll dive right in with the unpopular opinion here...

I'm actually ok with the ending. Did I want a more complete and happy ending for pilots? Absofrakkinlutely....but I see why they did what they did. These two weren't going to get a happy ending...I don't think anyone was under that illusion. So lets look at what they DID get.

Kara....I actually see Mark's point. She got to come back to life (through whatever medium) and do something amazing. She got to lead everyone to earth. She had a purpose...something I think she always struggled with when she was alive. She got to see all the people she loves on this new world (with the exception of Sam who filled his own purpose). I think where Mark is talking about free will he means her will and acceptance of leaving (or being called back to wherever she came from). She wasn't abruptly ripped from this world as soon as she put in the right coordinates. She was able to say goodbye to everyone she needed to and she KNEW she was leaving. I think it WAS her will to leave. She completed what she had to and the last thing she needed to do was make sure Lee was ok.

As for their goodbyes, I think how it happened was very them. First, how would Lee have reacted if Kara said "Oh hey I'm gonna poof out of here in a few minutes, peace out?". I think he would have been MORE upset if he knew. Would it have been more emotionally satisfying for us shippers to see him beg her not to go, them both cry and hug, and then have her poof? Maybe.....probably. But Kara would never want to hurt Lee like that. Not after all the things they've done to each other in the past. And Lee I think understood that. And I think they had already said so much in that exchange on Galactica:

“Because I’m Lee. And you’re Kara. And the rest of it isn’t worth a damn.”

As for Lee, him I actually feel worse for in his finale fate. Because everyone he loves is leaving/gone. But I think they were trying to show us that life would go on. He WAS excited about this new earth and exploring. And while he obviously is going to miss Kara, I think he had already made peace with the fact that he wouldn't have her with him. Again I reference the scene above. He didn't care what she was because he knows who they are and what they mean to each other. Him going on living and remembering her is how he will honor Kara and carry her with him.

Yes there are plot holes, and writing that could have been better, etc etc etc. But with finales of shows like BSG, LOST, etc. I think you have to look at the bigger picture. At least that has worked for me. I was also ok with the Lost finale (more than ok really I loved it). The entire watching audience of a show will never all agree on a satisfying ending. Because we all watch for different reasons, and we all love different aspects of a show.

I am 110% a pilot shipper, but I was able to find some peace with the ending. Does that mean I won't read alternate ending fic with happy no poof spins? Absolutely not! That is why fic is there...we can recreate, fill in holes, and make ourselves feel better about the fate of pilots. But I think the writers remained true to the show and the characters in the end.

*ducks from the eggs*

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

You aren't completely alone, heheh. I was seriously upset about Daybreak but I've made my peace with it, I don't feel like I'm still mourning the disbanding of Kara/Lee, etc. I have to state that it's probably easier for me because I don't tend to ship for the endgames like most other people seem to. Sure, I usually HOPE that the pairings I like will end up happy together but in many cases I'm attracted to shipping characters who have flaws or have really complicated relationships and that I have to accept may not actually end up together and possibly sometimes even shouldn't. Still, I didn't think Kara/Lee was 100% a pipe dream and the show made me feel like they were so close to actually having the potential to choose each other right up before it shot down the possibility...and kiling my favorite character was only pouring salt on the wound.

My problem isn't with "Daybreak"; it did the best it could with what the show it had already did, and tacked on what was probably the most symmetrical/sensical conclusion to what they started with "Maelstrom." My problem is with "Maelstrom" and the loose end it left that had to be tightened up by the end of the show, no matter how arbitrarily. It's a beautiful episode, but whenever I think about the fact that these writers killed Starbuck on a whim (somebody in the writer's room literally said, "Why don't we just kill her?"), because it fit the destiny plot and because they knew it could be played ambiguously by having her return later on, I get a bit ragey. Because they thought they could get away with killing her and bringing her back, but when they tried to come up with an explanation for it, they realized that in any permanent way they couldn't. The decision to kill a major character, after giving her growth and development throughout the entire season despite the fact that she's not supposed to even be alive, was an afterthought to a writing stunt they pulled because they thought it would be cool. I'm not cool with that, but again, I think they did the best with it later on that they could have. Kara was not logically alive, her purpose in returning had been fulfilled, and keeping her around to have a happy relationship with Lee would have admittedly given the relationship the same creator's darling status as Adama/Roslin got in the last season (which seriously turned me off of the relationship after a point), and it might have felt a little too forced to have much of an emotional resonance for me.

(LOL...With me being only in season three of Lost it does make me nervous how often I see the endings compared? Especially since my boyfriend, who liked the BSG finale and is somewhat easy to please with a show he already loves, didn't like the ending of Lost. I already know my favorite pairings can't happen, though, so I guess I don't have to worry about that :/ )

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

I will always be one of the few who doesn't hate the finale, but I can't imagine being anything other than at least initially shocked and pissed about the poof. It's not only thematically WTF but so damn corny and cliched in its execution, to me there was no room to feel any actual emotion that the story was supposed to make me feel.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I don't have much to add on the finale that hasn't been said before. My feelings on it have fluctuated over time -- initially I thought it was pretty lovely apart from the flashbacks, which almost all bothered me, the K/L ones most of all. The table near-frak just got me down because it made me spend my last ever minutes with these characters feeling disappointed in them, and it also cheapened their feelings for each other in my eyes. It took what had up to that point been presented as a believable long-term attraction based on friendship, comradeship, simmering frustration and attraction that was physical but more importantly the outgrowth of knowing each other as individuals over the long haul, and it replaced all those emotionally genuine foundations with a sort of bogus TV-trope instant overwhelming attraction as forbidden strangers (I can't resist your mysterious attraction!) that I found off-putting.

Over time I felt more frustrated with the final scene between Kara and Lee as well, not because I felt it robbed Kara of free will or because of its mythological connotations, but because I did not think it was allowed to be played as emotionally genuine. They skipped confronting the pain of this loss, and I now find that pretty emotionally unsatisfying.

But, overall, I am much more of a fan of the finale than most K/L shippers, though I thought it was hobbled by being rushed and simplistic in certain ways. I have always felt and will always feel that the final shot of Adama looking out over those mountains is sublime.

*shrugs* People react differently and strongly. It's no wonder, given how much we all invest in this story.

My favorite commentary on the series as a whole are Jammer's Reviews (http://www.jammersreviews.com/bsg/s1/). He's more analytical than Mark but still very sympathetic to the series and pleased with it, overall. I agree with his take on most of the episodes, even though he's not remotely a shipper.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

Thank you for that link, R! I'd never seen them before, as I came into fandom post-finale. :)

[winegums.livejournal.com]

I have so many feelings about the finale, and some of them are RAGE, but weirdly, when I first saw it (and I had put it off for years because I just didn't want to face the fact that there would be no more BSG after this - The Plan didn't count, since idgaf about Cylons), I did feel like it was a fitting end to BSG - at least on an emotional level.

I differ from fandom on many, many points re: the end for pilots - the almost-table-frak for starters, it has never got any hate from me and I don't think Lee and Kara are shitty people who never deserve to be together after that.

Same with the moment of the poof itself - I'm rather ok with it, because I don't need it spelled out just how much it's hurting them and how much they will miss each other. At the end, it's some very small consolation for me that they had all the crap behind them and wanted to be together, finally on the same page. There is no way the look on Kara's face when she tells Lee she's not coming back can mean anything else, because what it's telling me is this: she wants to stay, and it's breaking her heart to leave, but leave she must.


Which leads me to why I'm not ok with what the poof means for Kara: SHE DOESN'T WANT TO POOF. It's strange that the sadness in her face when she's talking to Lee is what makes me ok with their goodbye when it simultaneously makes me ragey on behalf of Kara. Like I've said elsewhere, it does not sit right with me that she can't even exist on this plane once her "task" is done, and that in the end her Chosen One status set that path for her.

[useyourlove.livejournal.com]

it does not sit right with me that she can't even exist on this plane once her "task" is done, and that in the end her Chosen One status set that path for her.

I just want to Buffy this now. I actually have an in-depth academic-style essay about Kara's narrative journey that was completely inspired by a Buffy essay using the same critical concepts. Because they fit so perfectly, and how did I never catch that until you said this? Durf.