DPP: Daybreak
Dec. 1st, 2011 12:19 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
lizziec posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
no_takebacksMonday's DPP was Celebrations. We have lots of prompts, and one lovely ficlet by ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
kballgetlost. Please go leave some love in the form of reviews :)
Tuesday was pilots picspam day, and there are some glorious pilots moments. Stop by and revel in the pilot-y joy.
Yesterday was Interventions - some really interesting points of intervention in pilots relationship came up :)
Today we're looking at Daybreak. I know, I'm really sorry to do this to you...
Yesterday Mark Does Stuff finished watching allllll of BSG, so I thought this would be a good time to revisit how we see events in Daybreak - and how we saw them when we first watched it. Included under the cut are some of the things that Mark says about our pilots in his Daybreak reviews to get us started (please note, this is not an excuse to get personal, just a way for us to talk about how each of us feel about the ending based on what someone else thinks).
Mark Watches Daybreak Part I
On faith in people and what Kara needed to hear:
Mark Watches Daybreak Part II
On the flashbacks:
On Romo becoming president:
On not telling Boomer "the plan":
Mark Watches Daybreak Part III
On the blind jump to the Watchtower co-ordinates:
On Kara's end:
So what do you think? Does any of it mesh with how you saw the ending, or even still see it? Has your view of Daybreak changed over time? How?
Oh god, my poor poor heart
kballgetlost. Please go leave some love in the form of reviews :)Tuesday was pilots picspam day, and there are some glorious pilots moments. Stop by and revel in the pilot-y joy.
Yesterday was Interventions - some really interesting points of intervention in pilots relationship came up :)
Today we're looking at Daybreak. I know, I'm really sorry to do this to you...
Yesterday Mark Does Stuff finished watching allllll of BSG, so I thought this would be a good time to revisit how we see events in Daybreak - and how we saw them when we first watched it. Included under the cut are some of the things that Mark says about our pilots in his Daybreak reviews to get us started (please note, this is not an excuse to get personal, just a way for us to talk about how each of us feel about the ending based on what someone else thinks).
Mark Watches Daybreak Part I
On faith in people and what Kara needed to hear:
I think the first sign that I should have a box of tissues ready was when Adama told Starbuck that he did know what she was: his daughter. Like Lee’s statement before, it’s unconditional love for her, and it’s something that she needed more than anything else.
Mark Watches Daybreak Part II
On the flashbacks:
Part two opens with flashbacks, and in a weird way, it was like another reminder that these characters’ stories were coming to an end. It’s not like this whole goddamn episode didn’t do that, but I realized that this would probably be the last time I’d see Adama and Tigh drunk together. (Side note: Tigh drunk screaming will never not be the most hilarious thing this show has ever produced ever. Which is perfectly fine, by the way, because I love the inclusion of humor that we see here. MORE ON THAT IN A SECOND.) This was the last time I’d see Starbuck and Lee make poor choices in a relationship and awkwardly flirt with one another. This was the last time I’d see Roslin diving headlong into an uncomfortable situation just for the hell of it. This was the last time I’d see Adama in the gutter, looking up at the stars. (OH GOD AN OSCAR WILDE REFERENCE, holy fuck I love this show.)
On Romo becoming president:
But before I could get any sadder, the episode cuts to Lee making Romo Lampkin THE FUCKING PRESIDENT. I’m sorry, this is SO GODDAMN FUNNY TO ME. I mean, what could be more irritating for the man than having to be President? Lee, you are a genius and I love you for it forever.
On not telling Boomer "the plan":
I was thankful for Starbuck’s retort about not telling Boomer “the plan” because it broke the painful awkwardness at just the right moment.
Mark Watches Daybreak Part III
On the blind jump to the Watchtower co-ordinates:
And then Adama orders Starbuck to make a blind jump, and then my entire brain collapses from what transpires from this order. Those notes that made no sense to her or to Cavil turn out to work perfectly as FTL coordinates. (No, seriously, this blog entry has made me love Bear McCreary from now until the universe ceases to be.) I honestly adore how this jump comes with sets of flashbacks: we see her find her body on Earth. We see Leoben call her an angel. We see her tell Lee Adama that she thinks about death every time she gets into the cockpit. We see her claim that her biggest fear is being forgotten. So I started to wonder if any of this were true, or if Kara Thrace had found a way to be remembered.
On Kara's end:
Lee and Kara follow Adama as he carries Roslin to his Mark II, and three of them exchange bizarrely-coded goodbyes. Adama knows what takes Lee a few moments to admit: This is the last time they’ll see him. And so his greeting to Starbuck is a reference to something they’ve said all along, and she knows it’s goodbye. As they wave goodbye to Roslin, the scene focuses on Lee and Starbuck, and it’s here that the one major question left for season four is addressed: Starbuck’s identity.
When she tells Lee she’s not coming back, that she feels satisfied that she’s completed something that needs to be done, she questions Lee: What is he going to do with the rest of his life? I was touched that he decided that he didn’t want to just exist and rest and relax; he was on a new world, and that new world inspired a sense of discovery and desire in him, something he’d not experienced in a while. And then he turns to find that Starbuck has simply ceased to exist. I gasped, and then immediately felt so goddamn satisfied by that image of Lee standing amongst the green, waving grass blades in the field. In that one moment, “Maelstrom” was given the weight and emotional force it had when I first watched it. Kara “Starbuck” Thrace’s actions had a consequence, and her death was real and had meaning. There was no shitty retconning of that plot, there was no attempt to deny her agency or free will, and there was no denial of her experiences in season four. They were still real, she still affected people and the fleet, and whatever “power” sent her back to direct those people to Earth never bothered to intervene and control her. She did what she was “destined” to do, and after saying goodbye in her own way to Lee Adama, she was gone.
The truth is that I don’t want to know the details of who she was. I know others do, and I accept that. We want different things from the show. I hate comparing this show to LOST (though the similarities in their series finales are eerily obvious to me), but mythology only matters so much. I want closure on the characters, and Starbuck’s disappearance gives me that. If she was really an angel, spelling that out would have made me feel disappointed. It would have felt cheap and easy.
So what do you think? Does any of it mesh with how you saw the ending, or even still see it? Has your view of Daybreak changed over time? How?
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no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 12:49 pm (UTC)immediately felt so goddamn satisfied by that image of Lee standing amongst the green, waving grass blades in the field.
There was no shitty retconning of that plot, there was no attempt to deny her agency or free will
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 12:58 pm (UTC):::::SHOCKED::::::
:::::ENRAGED::::::
:::::DEPRESSED:::::
I'll never get over it.
THE END.
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 12:59 pm (UTC)Really?? *heart breaking into millions of tiny pieces*
Feh.
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 01:23 pm (UTC)Especially this: There was no shitty retconning of that plot, there was no attempt to deny her agency or free will
o_O I am baffled. Is he implying that Kara was given any sort of free will? Um, well, fine, I think we read this show differently.
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 02:00 pm (UTC)Yeah :( One of the most distressing things for me about Kara Thrace and Her Special Destiny was the fact I felt she was completely lacking in free will, especially post-maelstrom :(
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 02:41 pm (UTC)I'm like.... "Um, Mark? Were we watching the same show?"
**CRICKETS**
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 02:43 pm (UTC)I do like his praise for Katee though.
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 02:45 pm (UTC)THE ART OF EPISODE DIVORCE.
Date: 2011-12-01 02:53 pm (UTC)http://workerbee73.livejournal.com/17138.html
Written two days after the finale aired (when fandom and Shipper Nation were spiraling into a meltdown the likes of which you cannot imagine. Only the peeps who lived through it know what I'm talking about, and we don't really speak of it--- just raise a glass in silent recognition and shared suffering.)
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 02:55 pm (UTC)Which is also fine, but not interesting to me to read because I have such a wildly different view of it.
I do want to think that's true about not having had time to digest or process. But then again there are other brand-new watchers who devour it on DVD and still end up hating the finale, etc. I think there are plenty of valid reasons to dislike the ending, regardless of who you ship, but shippy preference does seem to have a big hand in whether or not you're happy with the ending. If your primary OTP got a fairly nice or even meaningful but sad ending, those folks seem to be okay with it mostly.
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 03:03 pm (UTC)I think you're right and it also goes back to your level of investment in said ship. I was totally fine with LOST's finale for example, b/c all the folks I liked eneded up sitting next to the right peeps in the church pew, but I wasn't that heavily invested in those characters/ships or in the mythology. And I think if I had been, I would have been a lot more upset. So I think some of it goes back to investment level and some of it goes back to getting an ending that you wanted.
(and then of course there's that tiny matter of telling a good story, but who gives a crap about that? *g*)
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 03:07 pm (UTC)So the first time I watched Daybreak, I was ok with it. I was ok with everything. I think I was mostly just stunned that the show was over and it literally had been giving me anxiety attacks, so it was nice that those had stopped. They were, of course, replaced by random bouts of tears but hey, that's ok.
First off, I think that Kara and Lee were done an extreme disservice in all of Season 4. They are rarely even on screen together which is when their characters are most interesting and most dynamic. The fact that my favorite part of the show is those two should come as no surprise to anyone, so the first time I watched it I lived for their little moments and those were what shined through for me. The second time? I was like "but... where is all my goodness? I REMEMBER MORE GOODNESS." I'm firmly of the belief that viewers were so sick of the Quad of Doom that the writers decided to just essentially drop the entire K/L plot altogether which makes NO logical plot-sense as those two are so wrapped up in one another from second-one that they really don't function properly without each other anymore ("The Son Also Rises" clearly showed us this). Why do I make the point of saying they're my favorite part? Because I think who your favorite characters matters a lot in how you read this entire show. And I don't read it Mark's way at all.
Ok, now for Daybreak itself. The fact that Kara comes back at all is not a shitty retcon. You can't retcon something three episodes later. A retcon usually occurs in a different season entirely because the writers need something to have been different (the Final Five and Daniel are a perfect example of an actual retcon. Oh wait, SO IS ALL OF DAYBREAK.) Clearly, when they killed her they intended for her to be coming back immediately. And Kara disappearing exemplifies free will? Because it's free will to be manipulated into killing yourself, returning, going crazy from being yanked around by mystical forces for a year, and then what? You just disappear whether you want to or not? Daybreak does an extreme disservice to the most vibrant interesting character on the show because--really, when did she ever show any signs of being something other than Kara Thrace? She's still a poor leader, still a drunk, still impulsive. There are no explanations, there is a flashback suggesting that--because Lee and Kara made a poor decision under the influence--they do not deserve to be together (because, yeah, that one poor decision is so much worse than EVERYTHING ELSE OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DONE?! Baltar gets a happy ending for fu--um... Frak's sake. Aherm.) I just don't buy the whole "angel" thing. The writers were lazy and couldn't think up a real explanation. That's my only conclusion.
In fact, on a second watch, I didn't buy any of the finale at all. My skepticism was fueled by too much meta and shipper-rage, but it's entirely nonsensical. What it comes down to is this: they made the answer to every single thing "oh, god did it." That is the laziest thing I've ever heard in my life. You can't think up a better explanation for things than god did it??? DUDE I CAN THINK UP SOMETHING BETTER THAN THAT IN FIVE MINUTES. My theories were better than that.
Anyway, back to Kara and Lee. I'm cool with them not ever being together. That's just them. I'm ok with them getting no happy ending. Who ever expected them to get one? They told us way back in Season 2 "bright shiny futures are overrated anyway." But no affection? No anything except in flashbacks? Nothing. No begging her not to leave or a hug or anything? And then POOF. She just disappears? HOW DOES THAT INSTILL SATISFACTION IN ANYONE? I ASK YOU! All it instills in me is deep depression, frustration that my favorite character is a gaping plot hole, and the unshakable notion that Lee goes and climbs his mountain--only to jump off of it when he gets to the top.
So much more. I HAVE SO MUCH MORE TO SAY ABOUT THIS. But it won't come out of my brain fast enough and I need to go to class. *pouts*
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 03:46 pm (UTC)That said, I hated the way they ended Kara's storyline and left Lee to go do his mountain-climbing whateverthefrak. Um, no, TPTB. Kara post-Maelstrom as an angel/ god-toy/ destiny-fulfilling whatever? That didn't work for me at all. DO NOT LIKE THE POOF. I like fics that rewrite the ending to something else more satisfying.
I also really found the bit in New York City with HeadSix and Baltar beyond cheesy and grandiosely self-serving.
Yes, I’ll take the OTHER side of this.
Date: 2011-12-01 04:26 pm (UTC)So here’s my take on things.
First – I don’t disagree with any of your concerns. If you ship Kara / Lee this ending of the series is the end. It leaves our two favourite characters in a place where there ISN’T a possibility of a happy ending... they cannot be together, and Lee is left alone and bereft in the field. It still tears me apart to watch that scene from Daybreak... and while I love many aspects of the finale, that scene still guts me every time. In fact, I feel raw even talking about it.
*SOBS*
And NOW the rest of my thoughts...
I STILL LOVED MARK’S COMMENTARY.
The general rage that Mark might not feel the same things as me (or you) bothers me. It does. And I'll tell you why... the truth is, for all intents and purposes, he isn’t watching the same show as you. Mark didn’t ship Kara / Lee; he shipped Adama / Roslin. So for us to expect him to have the same emotional response to the series’ ending isn’t fair. I don’t hold it against Caprica / Gaius shippers for loving the ending – they should! I also don’t begrudge Kara / Sam shippers for despising the ending because of what it did to that pairing. It makes just as much sense to me.
We all come from different places of interest: there isn’t ONE right answer.
What it all comes down to, is that we bring our own beliefs, thoughts, emotions and experiences to whatever piece of literature we are reading. I have been following along with Mark and his personal arc for Kara comes from a connection to her as an individual (IMO) not as a particular pairing. The affair between Kara / Lee was the tipping point for him... he just couldn’t ship them after that (again, just IMO). And on that vein, I’d like to point out how many people in this comm have HUGE issues with the on-the-table-frak. (That gut response of “it couldn’t happen” that so many K / L shippers have is the flip side of Mark’s own reaction.) It all depends on your prerogative and to a degree, the ships you happen to be invested in.
I honestly believe that Mark really DOES see Kara ending as the culmination of her decision and while I may not agree with everything he says – I can certainly see why he says it. It’s his opinion. You can’t fault him on it. (Or maybe you can... but then by that logic, everyone who loved the finale can fault YOU on yours.)
Anyhow, that’s my big thought for the day. And now I’m going to go write some fic to – as I described it yesterday – give solace to my soul.
Be awesome, peeps! KAG :D
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 05:04 pm (UTC)because Lee and Kara made a poor decision under the influence--they do not deserve to be together (because, yeah, that one poor decision is so much worse than EVERYTHING ELSE OTHER PEOPLE HAVE DONE?!
I know. It's sad. EVERYONE got endings! EVERYONE! Even if they hurt, they got actual endings. But not pilots.
But no affection? No anything except in flashbacks? Nothing. No begging her not to leave or a hug or anything? And then POOF. She just disappears? HOW DOES THAT INSTILL SATISFACTION IN ANYONE? I ASK YOU! All it instills in me is deep depression, frustration that my favorite character is a gaping plot hole, and the unshakable notion that Lee goes and climbs his mountain--only to jump off of it when he gets to the top.
Try not to think about it too much. That way lies only rage and sadness.
Here try this . . .
Pilots in a field on Earth.
Lee: My first memory of my father is watching him fly away on a big plane and wondering when he'd be coming back. He's not coming back this time.
Kara: Maybe he will. He can't grieve forever, Lee.
(skipping Kara's crap about being done with journeys)
Kara: So what about you? What are you gonna do? (skip stupid line about 'today is the first day of the rest of your life' cuz BARF!)
Lee: I always thought after this I'd kick back, relax, spend the rest of my days doing the absolute minimum possible.
Kara: And now that you're here?
Lee: I wanna explore! I wanna the climb mountains, I wanna the cross oceans. Gods, I can't believe I'm saying this. It sounds so exhausting. I must be crazy.
Kara: *laughs* Well, we can't have you running off playing explorer all alone. Guess I'd better come along. You could use someone who knows what they're doing out there..
Lee: *smiles knowingly* My hero.
Kara: You know it.
They both look out at small hill behind them.
Lee: Race you to the top?
She's already running. He chases after her.
Lee: Cheater!
Re: Yes, I’ll take the OTHER side of this.
Date: 2011-12-01 05:17 pm (UTC)Re: Yes, I’ll take the OTHER side of this.
Date: 2011-12-01 05:22 pm (UTC)In fact, when I was putting together my post, I was actually thinking about some brilliant meta I'd read regarding the ending of Kara Thrace. I know one was Ray's, and I think(???) the other was yours... Do you have a link to that? Because I think you actually summarized many of my feelings about her ending.
Re: Yes, I’ll take the OTHER side of this.
Date: 2011-12-01 05:27 pm (UTC)I don't see why it's not fair game to say "I don't like his opinion." I'm sure if he were to read mine, he would say the same. ;)
Re: Yes, I’ll take the OTHER side of this.
Date: 2011-12-01 05:30 pm (UTC)http://rayruz.livejournal.com/356046.html
Re: Yes, I’ll take the OTHER side of this.
Date: 2011-12-01 05:45 pm (UTC)Really? Okay. I'll trust you on that. It's entirely possible I've misconstrued the tone of the comments.
I don't see why it's not fair game to say "I don't like his opinion."
I never said you couldn't, what I actually said was: "for us to expect him to have the same emotional response to the series’ ending isn’t fair," and I stand by that. Everyone will have gut responses based on the characters they've internalized, and Mark's are clearly not the same as those of many participants in the Kara / Lee comm. I suspect if we had sunshine_queen or nicoleanell involved in this discussion, they'd likely agree with him. My point is that since Mark is giving a reaction to the show - then his opinion is just as relevant as those people (including me) who had difficulty with the ending.
As to questioning Mark's opinion and giving relevant reasons why you don't agree - I say GO FOR IT! :D *cheers* In fact I applaud cosetteferaud for bringing up exactly that. Her note: "the thing that bothers me about Mark’s review is that he doesn’t seem to be critical or analytic" in my opinion gets closer to the heart of a true response to Mark the viewer and commenter rather than to RDM the writer. My concern is in regards to comments which question Mark's reaction to the ending, rather than to his review itself.
Oh goodness I'm wordy today. *shakes head* Hope that all makes sense! :D
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 06:35 pm (UTC)I'm actually ok with the ending. Did I want a more complete and happy ending for pilots? Absofrakkinlutely....but I see why they did what they did. These two weren't going to get a happy ending...I don't think anyone was under that illusion. So lets look at what they DID get.
Kara....I actually see Mark's point. She got to come back to life (through whatever medium) and do something amazing. She got to lead everyone to earth. She had a purpose...something I think she always struggled with when she was alive. She got to see all the people she loves on this new world (with the exception of Sam who filled his own purpose). I think where Mark is talking about free will he means her will and acceptance of leaving (or being called back to wherever she came from). She wasn't abruptly ripped from this world as soon as she put in the right coordinates. She was able to say goodbye to everyone she needed to and she KNEW she was leaving. I think it WAS her will to leave. She completed what she had to and the last thing she needed to do was make sure Lee was ok.
As for their goodbyes, I think how it happened was very them. First, how would Lee have reacted if Kara said "Oh hey I'm gonna poof out of here in a few minutes, peace out?". I think he would have been MORE upset if he knew. Would it have been more emotionally satisfying for us shippers to see him beg her not to go, them both cry and hug, and then have her poof? Maybe.....probably. But Kara would never want to hurt Lee like that. Not after all the things they've done to each other in the past. And Lee I think understood that. And I think they had already said so much in that exchange on Galactica:
“Because I’m Lee. And you’re Kara. And the rest of it isn’t worth a damn.”
As for Lee, him I actually feel worse for in his finale fate. Because everyone he loves is leaving/gone. But I think they were trying to show us that life would go on. He WAS excited about this new earth and exploring. And while he obviously is going to miss Kara, I think he had already made peace with the fact that he wouldn't have her with him. Again I reference the scene above. He didn't care what she was because he knows who they are and what they mean to each other. Him going on living and remembering her is how he will honor Kara and carry her with him.
Yes there are plot holes, and writing that could have been better, etc etc etc. But with finales of shows like BSG, LOST, etc. I think you have to look at the bigger picture. At least that has worked for me. I was also ok with the Lost finale (more than ok really I loved it). The entire watching audience of a show will never all agree on a satisfying ending. Because we all watch for different reasons, and we all love different aspects of a show.
I am 110% a pilot shipper, but I was able to find some peace with the ending. Does that mean I won't read alternate ending fic with happy no poof spins? Absolutely not! That is why fic is there...we can recreate, fill in holes, and make ourselves feel better about the fate of pilots. But I think the writers remained true to the show and the characters in the end.
*ducks from the eggs*
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 06:40 pm (UTC)Just a question (since I'm pretty sure I see that part completely different than most). Is it REALLY Kara post-Maelstrom? Or is it something else? I would love to hear your opinion.
Maelstrom, for me, is my line in the sand, BTW. (Obvious reasons.)
Re: THE ART OF EPISODE DIVORCE.
Date: 2011-12-01 06:46 pm (UTC)ROFL over 'magic fucking space music' and 'miscarriages of not enough love'
*snort*
no subject
Date: 2011-12-01 06:50 pm (UTC)That's because you never get over true love.
*joins your 'not over it' club*
Can I be Secretary of Bitter Thoughts?
Re: Yes, I’ll take the OTHER side of this.
Date: 2011-12-01 07:05 pm (UTC)You seemed to be upset (with the whole CAPS/BOLDED "WELL I LOVED IT SO THERE!" response) that we were saying we don't find his take on it interesting or insightful or to resonate with us. But we were asked specifically what we thought about his take on it. So... people were answering.
I don't see any difference between questioning his emotional response and his written reviews because they are one in the same. His reviews are all his unfiltered emotional responses to them. And because he has such a different viewpoint to many of the people here, it probably just didn't ring true to them. They didn't connect with his analysis at all.
I know I didn't for that reason.
I agree that giving reasons why you don't agree is important. That's why I said: there wasn't much critical thought (IMO) of if the ending fit the show's narrative. He just kind of was so blown away by every single episode that it was all capslock of joy no matter what the show served up.
Like Cosette, many of us have posted (at the time of the finale) our own long lists of all the things that we really disliked about the ending, from the fridging of many of the important women and almost all of the people of color on the show, to the fact that "God Did It" seemed like an incredibly facile deus ex machina, to the idea that they did an about-face on characterization and personal philosophies for a number of the characters, most notably Kara and Lee in some key areas.