No Takebacks

It's funny that you think she's unforgiving because that's actually the last word I would use for Kara. I think she is very (sometimes too) forgiving most of the time and never holds a grudge even when people treat her harshly (i.e. her mom, Adama, Leoben, and even Lee sometimes).

I see what you're saying about Gaeta, but I think the reason she treats him the way she does isn't because she's unforgiving but because he crossed the line against her strongest and best trait, which is loyalty.

Kara is loyal to her people, often to her own detriment (you can--and I do--read her Dead Guy Issues as loyalty issues as well as guilt, for both Zak and Sam). One could argue that making out with Lee while married to Sam is pretty disloyal, but I think it's loyalty, albeit twisted, that stops her from getting the divorce. And from totally writing him off when she finds he's a cylon.

She's unfailingly loyal to the fleet and will go to her death (razor) and assassinate people (res ship2) if asked/ordered to. When she jumps away for the arrow, it's because her loyalty has been violated, by Adama lying about Earth.

When someone (who's not an Adama) betrays her loyalty (Kat lying about her real identity/past, Gaeta lying--or so she thinks--about collaborating), then she'll totally write them off.

Now as for Lee, I think his strongest/worst trait is his idealism, which also encompasses his sense of honor and nobility. It's why we love that he's gutted over the Olympic Carrier and how he forces an election system in Bastille Day, and it's what enables him to shoot that guy in the head in Black Market. But personally it leaves him in such a state because he's so wracked by his own guilt over lusting for his brother's girlfriend and then later so focused on the marriage he should want/be happy with and the perfect husband he should be so that he's not like his father, that it gets in the way of his own happiness.

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I'm just going to dash off a quick off-the-cuff answer:

I respect Lee for his independence of mind and the way he can stand up for himself and his ideas, but also how he can consider the views of others and back down when necessary. I think he's both a good leader and a good follower - for someone with a not insignificant ego, he rarely lets it get in the way of his decision-making or his ability to work with others for long. I think he's secure enough to work very well with extraordinary - even difficult - people. He works well with Kara, and is neither threatened by her nor subservient to her, and I think he brings out the best in her while giving her the support and recognition (and teasing) she needs. That's a big part of why they're good together.

I respect Kara for her determination, her protectiveness and the way she pushes herself beyond all limits to justify whatever faith others have placed in her. I think she is a very loving person, and a deeply insecure one, and that is a heartbreaking but deeply sympathetic quality that forms an interesting contrast to her tremendous courage, skill, and strength of spirit.

Their least attractive qualities come out in the way they treat their spouses, in my opinion. Lee is often accused of passivity, which is a problem for him, but the way he treats Dee is worse than passive. He is dishonest, disrespectful, and selfish in his behavior toward her. And Kara is also quite selfish and disrespectful toward Sam through much of their relationship. It's sad and off-putting. Boo.

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I agree with everything you said, except for the part about Kara not divorcing Sam out of loyalty.

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I think you have summed up their most appealing qualities very well. And I have nothing to add to that, really.

As for their least attractive traits I'd say it is their emotional hang-ups. I know that we love the fact they are conflicted and human. And we crave the angst and all. However, they both find it so difficult to deal with their strongest emotions that this is what prompts them to act their worst. Lee was so overwhelmed with his resentment towards his father (rooted on lots of childhood issues and not simply Zac's death) that he was extremely unreasonable and quite cruel in his estrangement from Adama. And he acted as a real jerk when forced to face his father again in the mini. Kara was so overwhelmed with fear, guilty or whatever that she denied her feelings for Lee to the point where she got married the very next day after finally admitting those emotions. Lee was so overwhelmed by the rejection and despair that overcame him in NC that he decided to get married when he knew the chances of that really working out were pretty slim. Whenever Kara was overwhelmed with negative emotions she resorted to snide remarks, heavy drinking and downright using her husband as little more than a sex object. Neither of them was really dishonest, disrespecful, selfish and both Dee and Sam knew pretty well what they were doing, but they sure needed to get a better grip of their emotions.

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Well, I don't think that's the only or even the primary reason but I do think that is part of it. She made a commitment, a promise, and that obviously means a lot to her.

Even in UB, when Lee just says "We just tell them. First thing tomorrow." and she says "Just like that?" I do think she was at least partially thinking about hurting Sam (and Dee) because they'd been in those relationships for what? 6 months at that point? I forget when groundbreaking was.

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Lee is often accused of passivity, which is a problem for him, but the way he treats Dee is worse than passive. He is dishonest, disrespectful, and selfish in his behavior toward her. And Kara is also quite selfish and disrespectful toward Sam through much of their relationship.

I agree, but I have to admit...it never really dented my love for them much. I know a lot of folks in fandom who had previously been fans of the ship were completely turned off when it veered into infidelity and...well, abandoned ship, so to speak. I always found that sort of strange since it's a fictional relationship. But I guess sometimes people just have dealbreakers or personal squicks or whatever.

I will say that the dishonesty was the part I hated the most from Lee and is what fuels my belief that Lee had a very long habit of repressing his emotions so much that he didn't even recognize what he was feeling for Kara for ages, and that Kara, on the other hand, who is pretty honest with herself but refuses to face what it means, always knew how much she loved him and just tried to deny it at every pass.

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Nice analysis! I agree with what you say, though I'm surprised that you don't consider the behavior you've described as disrespectful ("using her husband as little more than a sex object") or selfish ("he decided to get married when he knew the chances of that really working out were pretty slim"). Maybe it's just a case of potato/po-tah-to, but choices like that were what I had in mind when I chose my adjectives :) "Dishonest" is a bit more debatable, I suppose, but Lee did spend time making out with Kara while married to Dee and as far as I can tell never admitted to this and acted like his wife was paranoid when she brought up her suspicions in TABFAYW. The fact that Dee knew the truth about Lee's emotional and physical involvement with Kara doesn't mean that Lee told it to her.

But I digress :) I agree with all your sentiments, and you are right that these particular hurtful behaviors and decisions seem rooted in deeper emotional issues which make them comprehensible and influence Kara and Lee's lives in wider forums than just their marriages.

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This is a really sensitive and interesting take on Lee and Kara and their different reactions and internal awareness regarding their own emotions. I hadn't thought of it in quite that way before, but what you say makes a lot of sense to me.

The Quad of Doom wasn't a dealbreaker for me, as obviously I have never abandoned ship and never will! :) But it was the part of their story that I found the most unpleasant and if it had been up to me I would have given the characters a different storyline.

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I know it may seem like hairsplitting, but to me it always seemed like Kara=denial and Lee=repression and that particular cocktail of emotional frakitude just never allowed them to get it together. Sigh. I also feel (and think I'm in the minority here) that canon made Kara's love for Lee the very obvious text in S1, more so than the reverse. Because although you could read his distress about her being gone in YCGHA as a romantic thing, that wasn't totally clear. Whereas Kara's reaction to him being dead and the way it lingered on her smiling face when he walked away to the ready room in the mini, plus her flirty wanna give me a bath bit, plus her face at the end of Hand of God, plus the dressing up for him in Colonial Day. Well, that's a lot of plusses, ain't it? ;)

It's interesting to me how canon seeemd to make Kara pine for Lee in S1, and Lee pine for Kara in S2, then S3 they finally got it together sorta briefly, then illicitly, then back to friendship. And then sadly s4/4.5 was just a mess of mostly nothingness. I really do think that the writers had felt they'd done everything with that romance that they could....short of giving them a happy ending, and Kara's death invalidated that as a possibility. Grrr.

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Sorry, I didn't express myself very well. (You are so much better at this than I am. LOL). I didn't mean to imply that their behavior wasn't disrespectful or selfish, but rather that despite that behavior, they were not really dishonest or disrespectful people at heart. Just as Lee can occasionally act like a real jerk but he isn't really a jerk. And Kara can occasionally be extremelly hurtful when deep down she is really a very caring person.

I think they ACTED in a sort of dishonest way towards their spouses (more Lee than Kara) but it wasn't really their intention as their biggest lies were the ones they told to themselves. And they were selfish, but I don't think they realized how much, and because intent is something important, I'd cut them some slack here. I think they did act in a disrespectful way towards their spouses (more Kara than Lee, or at least Kara seemed to do it more often, though we can never be sure since we didn't see as much of Lee and Dee being intimate as we saw Kara and Sam). And this is more difficult to forgive.

I also think, however, that Sam and Dee are not exaclty innocent victims here. They were certainly more respectful of their spouses, probably because their feelings towards them were stronger, but one could argue that they were also dishonest (more Dee than Sam) and selfish. Dee knew Lee was in love with Kara (she might even have realized that before Lee himself was able to admit it). She knew it wouldn't last long (just till Kara or the cylons allowed it to)and she was OK with that (she wanted to get whatever happiness she could, while she could). So when Lee "lied" (to himself and )to her saying he wanted to make their marriage work she tried to play it like she was more of a victim than she really was. Perhaps she decided to lie to herself as well, I don't know. But they were also rather selfish too,because they knew that Lee and Kara were in love with each other but they put their own interests, their own needs of having some semblance of happiness first.

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I'm with you in your minority, I guess, because I agree that in most of Season One Kara seemed far more aware of her attraction to Lee than vice versa. I'm not 100% sure she was already in love with him, or that Lee was already in love with her and repressing it; I think it actually might not have gone beyond attraction and comaraderie and a sense of potential at that stage. But I think we can agree that whatever was going on with their emotions, Kara was on a faster track. I think Colonial Day was basically Lee's first serious wake-up call in the romantic sense. He gave evidence of caring deeply about Kara before that, but he seemed to consider his own feelings confusing and somewhat familial (he said to his father in YCGHA: "Why did we do this? For Kara? For Zak?" He seemed aware that whatever was driving him to find her at all costs was both powerful and inarticulate, and still tied in to their complicated history. Though he also said that he thought the President was wrong to attribute their actions to unresolved feelings for Zak.)

I agree with your breakdown of Season One (Kara pines), Season Two (Lee pines), and Season Three (hate, infidelity, friendship). I actually love them in every scene they have together in Season Four/Four-Point-Five. You're right that they are not put together very often, and probably right that this was a deliberate choice on the part of the writers because the only thing left for them would have been an actual happy and functional relationship, in large part because the characters simply could not have been realistically held back from that for any longer.

I guess it makes me an odd shipper in that I love Season Four/Four-Point-Five and Season Two the best of all. I think they are just gorgeous with each other at these times. Season Three is my least favorite, and in Season One they seem utterly adorable but still percolating :)

I'm sure I'm now in a way smaller minority than you are! :)

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I really loved this:Kara=denial and Lee=repression. Well put! I guess I never really thought of it this way, but it makes a lot of sense.

canon seeemd to make Kara pine for Lee in S1, and Lee pine for Kara in S2,

This also makes sense to me. It is not that he didn't love her, but he repressed it so well. And in season 2, when he started to kind of surrender to those feelings and to recognize them for what they were, he was no longer safe, and she started to run. She knew she loved him all along, but the possibility that the feeling might be returned, that would make things complicated and she was so used to not having what she wanted, she was comfortable in that place. I never thought of it this way. I like it. But it makes so sad all over again. :(

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kag523.livejournal.com

Wow. No really... WOW. I spend literally hours wondering how to make sense of Kara Thrace, but you put together a half a page that does a much better job (and far more concisely) than I ever could.

I think I need to borrow your brain sometimes, Tara.

*adds this post to character notes*

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I don't think she would ever want to deliberately hurt Sam but I also don't think getting out of her way to spare him pain was really first (or second, or third)on her mind most of the time throughout most of their relationship and ,therefore, I don't think it played any significant part on explaining her actions in NC. If a commitement to a boyfriend and later to a husband was so important she wouldn't have felt it was ok to cheat and she wouldn't be so brutally honest with him when she said she wanted to hurt someone and it might as well be him and she wouldn't be so bluntly indifferent and hurtful to him when she fraked him and dismissed him in UB. I love Kara, and I think she is very loyal when it really matters, and that her feelings run deep, but, quite often, she doesn't squeamish at the possibility of causing pain.

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Ironically I love those two seasons the best also. Although it's hard to choose. I do kind of love every single interaction they had with the exception of some of the finale. Even when they were hurting each other, as I was watching, I loved it as a compelling story and just counted it all as bumps in the road. But little did I know their road was a Dead End. :(

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Very well put! I agree with you on all counts, particularly about the fact that Sam and especially Dee were not simply victims. No one forced them to persist in unhealthy relationships, they made that decision themselves and they seemed quite aware of what they were doing. I think that the Lee-Dee proposal scene offers examples of selfishness on both sides, and I think Dee used Lee for her own comfort both in their marriage and in her last actions before her suicide. Obviously I don't think she was a terrible person because of this, I think she was carrying around a lot more guilt and despair than Lee ever noticed. But that doesn't mean she was blameless for the problems in their relationship.

I actually think the series sprinkles hints throughout its run that Dee was seriously emotionally damaged. I wish they had spent a little time exploring and acknowledging this, but honestly I'm not sure that the writers recognized that the material they were writing for her was problematic. I won't go off on a huge tangent about her character, but suffice it to say that she has always struck me as a person who undervalued herself, who relied on military structures for morale and a sense of worth, and who found it easier to focus on other people's problems than on her own. I think her comment in "Final Cut" that she entered the military because she "wanted to believe in something" and then had to live with the unresolved guilt of alienating her family explains a lot about what she was attracted to in Lee, and also about her desperation to live in the present moment and to willfully ignore the likelihood of eventual abandonment.

It's funny, but I've kind of made her sound like Kara there. Never thought I'd see the day :)

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Yeah everything kind of leads to sadness when you think about their missed chances and wasted time and dreadful ending. :(

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Aw glad it was useful to you. I think Kara's surprisingly easy to understand, even though she almost never explains herself in canon. I do credit Katee's wonderfully expressive acting for that. In lesser hands, Kara would have been inscrutable and highly unlikable.

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Her code is hard to follow sometimes, but I do think in the "just like that?" there is some reluctance about dumping Sam out of the blue. It might not be the first motivation, and isn't the only motivation, but Kara thinks a lot about debt and I think she rescued Sam, had been in a relationship with him for the better part of a year...so, no, I don't think she would easily have tossed him aside, especially knowing he loved her pretty unconditionally and that was incredibly rare in Kara's life (and something Lee couldn't do).

Kara has different rules from most people about cheating/fidelity/marriage. She makes it explicit in EOJ when she says she won't divorce because that's breaking the rules, whereas cheating is just bending them a little. I also don't think sex is as attached to emotion for Kara as it is for most people. And all the stuff after New Caprica is pretty much her PTSD from Leoben coming to the surface. Why wouldn't she be honest with him? Kara's pretty honest in general, brutally honest even, with everyone except herself when it comes to Lee.

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Aw! I think it's time for a CHEERFULNESS INTERVENTION.

Remember that thing where Kara and Lee are AWESOME???

And SO IN LOVE??? LIKE, 4EVAH???

DUDES.

This is why we have ice skating and (SOON??) snow angels, right?

Kara/Lee. Is all.

Q.E.D.

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Perhaps you are not such a minority. And it would be a nice idea for a poll.

Anyway, season 3 is my least favorite as well.

I'd say my favorite one is season 2. I love everything about: the mutiny arc, the Pegasus arc, Scar, of course... I also like season 1 a lot.

But I'm kind of torn about season 4. I love every single L/K interaction there. And of course, the mutiny arc again (I never though mutinies could be so entertaining hee), and the alliance with the rebel cylons. But at the same time, I feel it was in this season that the show lost its way by becoming all mystical. *sighs*

(Of course all would have been forgiven if they had managed to get Lee and Kara a more acceptable end).

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lyras.livejournal.com

Hee, I know. I love that Tara just throws things out there like this.

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Yes, great reminder!!!

And I do need to get up to date with ice pilots! I'm two chapters behind right now and that is simply unforgivable!

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coffeesuperhero.livejournal.com

Agreed. And I always thought her religious faith was a big motivator there, too: not just loyalty to Sam, but loyalty to the gods themselves (vow made in the sight of the gods and all that).

(That said: I haven't seen the Passage in awhile. Didn't Kara come back to see Kat as she was dying? I swear I remembered being all, "WHATEVER KAT TALK TO THE HAND," when Kara came back to see her in sick bay or something. Does she sort of take back what she said earlier? And give her some pills so she can die peacefully? Way more forgiving than I'd have a mind to be. The Emperor and I are not as forgiving as Kara is.)

And now I have to go and write an unrelated comment!fic. Whee!

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Trust me to focus on the insignificant detail rather than the larger question, but can I ask, are you counting her almost-year in a relationship with Sam from the day they met on Caprica? Because she did think he was dead for a lot of that time, and I'm not sure they were really in a relationship. I thought they were together for about five days, then separated for something like half a year, and then reunited for maybe a couple of weeks before the NC trainwreck. At least, she returned with Sam at the same time that Baltar won the election, and then didn't Gaius get the groundbreaking on New Caprica underway pretty quickly? I feel like it was his first presidential order or something. I wouldn't think the time between Sam's rescue and their marriage was more than a month or so.

Not that a shorter time together means that cheating is any more OK or anything like that, but I'm not sure her relationship with Sam was very established yet.

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Oops! Self-correction. I just saw your earlier comment about the six month gap. Having now checked the DVD because I am that dorky, it says the NC trainwreck was 8 months before the Cylon occupation, and that came 12 months after Gaius's election. We therefore wind up with 4 months of Kara/Sam.

Sorry, my timelines are always mixed up :)

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OH yes, she totally came back and forgave Kat as she was dying (er in a way, sorta the same with Sam the cylon too in Daybreak). And actually, I don't even think she wrote Gaeta off completely, she tried to save his leg on the Demetrius and even in the mutiny at first when she was on the phone with him she was trying to reason with him by using his name and starting to appeal to him when he hung up on her.

So saying she writes them off completely isn't even true. It's still only temporary.

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No I wasn't counting that, but I couldn't recall exactly how much time passed. According to battlestarwiki, the resue mission returned on day 282 and groundbreaking was day 420. So it was 138 days or jsut over four months between LDYB2 and the Groundbreaking. I was off by a couple months, but I'd argue that 4 months with the way things moved so quickly in BSG felt like a lot longer. Because season one from the mini to Colonial Day only took about 47 days according to the Wiki! Which is really interesting when you think about how quickly Kara and Lee's relationship had to change...

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Heh. I have to check the draft again--snow angels may have never made it out of my head....

But yes, new chapter soon. This week definitely.

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I agree that Kara mixes surprising depths of loyalty into her relationship with Sam at certain points, but her professed casual attitude toward cheating - the idea that she's not really betraying Sam by starting an affair with Lee so long as she doesn't divorce him - has never made much sense to me. I think you're right that Kara has the capacity to detach physicality and sex from emotion, but I definitely don't think she does that when she's with Lee. An affair with him is emotionally as well as physically serious, and I'm not sure how she expected to conduct that within the context of fidelity to Sam in whatever sense fidelity actually mattered to her. What did she think she was giving Sam by refusing to divorce?

Both Lee and Kara were ready to hurt their spouses in order to be together. Lee thought it was less hurtful to divorce Dee than to stay married to her while making love to another woman. Kara apparently held the opposite view. Sam stayed married to her although he knew that she cheated on him, which I suppose one might consider evidence of unconditional love, but it doesn't seem very healthy or honest to me. Sam clearly wanted the cheating to stop, but rather than confronting Kara about it he focused on the third party in the equation, Lee, and tried to shame him into stopping. Dee did the same thing to Kara, and that has always bothered me, actually. I'm not saying that the spouses had no right to blame "the other woman" or "the other man," but Lee was the one cheating on Dee, and Kara was the one cheating on Sam, and those were the people who needed to face each other and talk honestly about what they expected from one another.

Anyhow, sorry to putter on.

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Wow! 47 days! A month and a half...

Makes your head spin, doesn't it?

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I do wonder what kind of understanding (if any) Kara and Sam had. Because, although it's a controversial line for a lot of people (including the actors!), Sam says Kara's cheated on him before. He doesn't sound happy about that but I've never fully been able to buy that he just says it to irritate Lee (which is how Katee and Trucco personally have said they interpreted that line). (Probably because I know RDM loves the idea that Kara cheats and has some weird fascination with cheating women. So I think the implication and intention was very likely that Kara cheated on Sam from time to time. Which I don't find that hard to believe either.)

I do think the way the scene was shot and the expressions/body language of the K/L sex scene meant yes, Kara felt more emotional about the sex with Lee in UB. But...to play devil's advocate, there's also Scar--where she was pretty unattached even though she was with Lee. *shrugs*

I do think the reason the UB sex scene stands out is because it's very different from all the other sex scenes they showed for Kara, because it is imbued with more emotion.

Unconditional love isn't always healthy or honest, probably when you think about it.

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It does. And also...it means she and Lee had been reunited for less than a year before LDYB2, and only less than two months before Sam came into the picture. Which is even more head spinny as we're conditioned to thinking they're dancing around each other for years!

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Good points. Before congratulating someone on unconditional love, I guess one should ask whether there are any conditions that *should* matter :)

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I do think in the "just like that?" there is some reluctance about dumping Sam out of the blue

I agree with you that this line indicates a certain amount of reluctance. The thing is: what was she really reluctant about - dumping Sam "just like that" or jumping into a relationship with Lee "just like that" (after being in denial and avoiding it for so long)?
Again, I'm not saying that she didn't care at all about his feelings but I don't think you can determine someone's level of commitment to a relationship by how long said relationship has been going on. I believe her reluctance had (a LOT)more to do with her own insecurities than with Sam exactly. Also, it wouldn't be the fist she did something just like that. She decided to get married and "dump" Lee "just like that", after all.

Kara has different rules from most people about cheating/fidelity/marriage.

I'm not so sure about that. I mean, at first sight it does look this way. But would she really behave like that if she were really invested in the relationship? I'm perfectly aware that it may very well just be my shipper bias talking here and over-romanticizing things, but I don't think so. I (stubbornly? *shrugs*) fail to believe her commitment to Sam was ever that strong to begin with. Her romantic commitment, that is. That is not to say she wasn't committed to him at all. That is why I think she could be loyal without being faithful. And she did show how much she cared for him and was loyal to him in the end.

I also don't think sex is as attached to emotion for Kara as it is for most people.

You have a point there. She does not need to be emotionally involved for having occasional sex or even a established, steady sexual relationship. (Lee, on the other hand, tried to establish an emotional connection with a hooker!) But would she be able to separate things so easily if she was really emotionally connected? My shipper-biased heart says NO.

And all the stuff after New Caprica is pretty much her PTSD from Leoben coming to the surface.

You are absolutely right here.

Kara's pretty honest in general, brutally honest even, with everyone except herself when it comes to Lee.

OMG. That. Soooo true.

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I agree that Kara mixes surprising depths of loyalty into her relationship with Sam at certain points, but her professed casual attitude toward cheating - the idea that she's not really betraying Sam by starting an affair with Lee so long as she doesn't divorce him - has never made much sense to me

Given everything we know (as well as my own assumptions, of course lol) about Kara, the only way it makes sense to me is because , regardless of how long she was in a steady relationship with him (4, 6 months, a year), she was never that strongly committed (romantically speaking) to him in the first place. My shipper-biased (?) heart doesn't believe she would be able to make such subtle distinctions had she ever really entered a relationship with Lee ( or with Zac, for that matter - drunk-table-near fraks notwithstanding )

Both Lee and Kara were ready to hurt their spouses in order to be together. Lee thought it was less hurtful to divorce Dee than to stay married to her while making love to another woman. Kara apparently held the opposite view

Absolutely.

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The thing is: what was she really reluctant about - dumping Sam "just like that" or jumping into a relationship with Lee "just like that" (after being in denial and avoiding it for so long)?

Well, like I said, I think it's both. Some of each. Kara doesn't leave a man behind, not after Zak. And there was no dumping to do with Lee because they had no promises and no commitments to each other. And you're kind of putting the horse before the cart here. Yes it would be the first time she did it (dumping someone just like that). She didn't break up with Zak, despite of what happened on the table with Lee. She went on to agree to marry him. But here, it's Lee's comments about marriage and rest of her life that give her the idea to marry Sam the next morning so that she'll (and he'll) be safe from this scary love/her penchant for killing the ones she loves.

Well I don't know many people who would ever say "Cheating isn't breaking the rules, it's just bending them a little." So for my money, she's got a whole different take on the cheating/fidelity/marriage thing. ;)

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And you're kind of putting the horse before the cart here. Yes it would be the first time she did it (dumping someone just like that). She didn't break up with Zak,

OMG, I just reread what I wrote again and it is a little confusing.Thanks for calling me on it! That was not what I meant at all. What I meant is that it wouldn't be the first time she acted impulsively and the "dumping" Lee part was just an example of that. Also, I did not mean dump in a literal way (hence the quotations marks) because you are absoltutely right to say they were not really in a relationship for her to be able to really dump him.

As for all the rest, I guess we have to agree to disagree. (Not that it is such big disagreement to begin with,IMO).
I always love to read your thoughts on anything pilot-related. ;D

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Heh I was getting confused too. IT'S CONFUSING.

THEY SHOULDA JUST LET 'EM BE HAPPY! :)

Problem solved.

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