Daily Pilots Post: Here Be the Angst...

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

A couple of weeks ago we had a wonderful discussion about pilots backstory. But me being me –an utterly fascinated by pre-mini pilots shipper--, I’d love to devote this post to the biggest McGuffin of the history of McGuffins…

         ZAK!!

(and his circumstances)

I mean, what do we really know about Zak regarded as canon? He was Lee’s little brother and Kara’s fiancé. The two fell in love while they were at the Academy –Zak training to become a viper pilot and Kara working as a flight instructor. Kara passed him despite his lack of skills because she couldn’t crush his dreams and, in a heartbreaking twist of fate, Zak died in an accident while flying two years prior to the cylon attacks… Kara always blamed herself for his death. Lee always blamed his father. Apart from that information, though, Zak always was an obscure character and primarily a (very interesting) plot device to set up the Kara/Lee epic angst scenario. Sadly, I always felt that the show failed in dealing with the Zak issue and the consequences of the emotional betrayal that came along with Kara and Lee's feelings/attraction for each other...

…Which leads me to the discussion topic for today’s post: How did Zak as an entity shape Lee and Kara’s relationship? How did the canon-ish assessment that “Kara met the wrong brother first” affect their relationship?

And also, some lesser questions to debate…

(of course, answer the ones you feel like :))

(also, I have included my own perceptions here and there, hope you don’t mind... Feel free to disagree! :)).

How do you envision Lee and Zak’s relationship?

(They loved each other deeply, sure, but I always thought that their relationship was way more complicated underneath the surface, especially given the Adama family dynamics –absent father and alcoholic/abusive mother--, and the implication that Lee was mostly responsible for Zak and acted as a protective older brother). Maybe a love-resentment-admiration-jealousy combo actually makes sense.

How do you picture Kara and Zak’s relationship? Do you see any parallels between Sam and Zak?

(Personally, aside from the obvious plot device nature of both characters, I tend to see them as a very similar kind of partner to Kara. Both easy-going, nice and relatively healthy on a psychological level. I have always envisioned Kara as someone who needed to be in control of her romantic relationships and avoided close intimacy on an emotional level –due to her self-loathing, her emotional vulnerability and fear of rejection. We know that Kara was in a position of dominance --by rank, qualifications, experience, position, and age-- with Zak, and also with Sam had a dominant role in most of their interactions --Sam was generally deferrential to Kara's wishes and, in those rare occasions when he confronted her –demanding a more committed relationship, for example--, she closed him out and rejected him. Despite this dynamic I always felt that Kara was genuinely comfortable with both Zak and Sam (when Lee wasn’t in the bigger picture, at least). So I can certainly see some similarities between her death fiancé and his husband.
Also, I am not implying that this sort of somewhat too uneven relationships are necessarily dysfunctional, I guess the circumstances surrounding them play a big role. And the Kara we see in the flashbacks doesn't seem to have the extent of baggage that she does once we meet her in the mini and beyond –I truly think she was genuinely happy with Zak and, to a lesser extent, with Sam.

How do you perceive the depth of feelings between Kara and Lee while Zak was alive? Do you believe they were in love at that early stage of their relationhip?

What’s the story behind the Lee/Kara/Zak picture she kept in her locker? How do you interpret the fact that the pic is folded so Lee is hidden?

(Ooooh, I find it so telling! I always read it as a very graphic metaphor of Kara and Lee’s status quo when Zak was alive. When I first saw that particular moment, it suddenly hit me that Kara was possibly in love with Lee but couldn’t allow herself to acknowledge it. I mean, who folds pictures this way?).

Do you think Zak was aware of Lee and Kara's attraction/whatever you think they had?

Do you think Kara could have been truly happy with Zak once she met Lee?

(maybe the politically correct answer here is “yes”, but deep down I'm not so sure. I have always conceived Kara and Lee as true soulmates, kind of inevitable… And I have this theory that Lee –and Kara’s feelings for him-- was the validation of all those things Socrata said about her being a cancer and a curse. I mean, she finally finds in Zak a guy who loves her unconditionally and makes her happy, and then, bam! The big ephiphany; she meets his big brother and they have that immediate, bone-deep connection. And the attraction never fades, no matter how hard she tries to suppress or control it. How are you supposed to get over this? Of course she would have tried, but the possibility that the whole mess would have blown up in their faces was always there).

What would have happened with Kara and Lee if Zak hadn’t died?

And I know the post is sort of rambly, but please, discuss!!! :D

Also, for all the newbies, a must-read fanon bibliography ;)

“Angle of Descent” by daphnaea . “She thinks that if they were ever married, they’d have a throwing pots and pans, waking up the neighbors kind of life. Then a wave of guilt pulls her under. She expunges the word ‘married’ from her mental vocabulary.”

“All Feelings But This One” by stars_like_dust . Kara, Zak and Lee in 16,800 something words. One of my all time faves.

“Circumstance” by elly427 . Zak POV. The “Decline and Fall” remix. "It's fine, he wants to say, but it's not, it's so not. He loves her enough for it not to be fine anymore.

“Truth or Dare” by lotus79 . Zak dares his girlfriend to kiss his brother. Full on the lips, for at least sixty seconds.

“Drinking Games” by elly427 . The 'Never Have I Ever' ("Truth or Dare") remix. Later, years later, Zak can joke with Lee about being a girlfriend stealer, but there's a little bit of truth in every 'just kidding.'

“Simulations” by daphnaea . "If there was one thing Kara Thrace was worse at than relationships, it was family, and she was already having enough trouble surviving the former without throwing the latter into the mix on top of it.

“Fearful Symmetry”by leda13 . Kara (gen, backstoryish). But Lee's worse, because he's like the tiny crystal viper; he lets you leave him. He lets you ignore him. He even lets you hurt him and then puts himself back together and waits. And that's so much worse, because one time he won't be able to, won't be able to put himself back together, and you'll have broken something else you should never even have had the arrogance to touch.

“You, and a Promise” by foxrayne . ”Her voice was low and husky but somehow it had that edge that kept people listening, “I feel at peace on the beach. I feel at home when I’m with Zak,” she paused and looked at him, “and when I’m with you.”

“Aerilon Girls Are Easy” by flowrs4ophelia . Without a war to bring them back together, it takes a lot for Kara and Lee to be able to forgive each other. And themselves.

“Brotherly Advice” bytaragel . "Zak will always be his little brother and Lee’s job will always be to protect him."

“Forbidden Fruit” by lotus79 . The "Brotherly Advice" remix. Months later you’ll wonder if this is when your game of ‘make Lee want to frak you’ really started.

"Tomorrow’s Dust (Flares Into Breath)" by spamdilemma . "Lee loves first, and you follow."

“The Touch I Was Wanting From Her” byleiascully . "These Adamas, they spun her around. That’s a very interesting portrait of the Kara/Zak dynamic, making Zak kind of acceptant of Kara’s flirting -- and being that part of the reason why she stays with him. Also, one of the few fics I’ve read where Kara's love for Zak overshadows her attraction to Lee.

"Borrowed Time" by workerbee73 . "There was nothing else to say, nothing to do. Nothing else for it. She had simply met the wrong brother first." WIP (soon to be finished --hopefully!).

Comments

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

This might be my favorite topic EVAR! The Zak dynamic really clinched my 'shipping. Stupid job... I'll have to think about this (deeply) and come back later.

This topic is made entirely of win, by the way.

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

OMG!!! What a great topic!! I'm writing my essay now. I'll be back later!

Part I

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

How did Zak as an entity shape Lee and Kara’s relationship? How did the canon-ish assessment that “Kara met the wrong brother first” affect their relationship?

Zak was the biggest obstacle in Kara and Lee’s relationship. I don’t just mean their romantic relationship but their friendship. To me it seemed like they couldn’t be fully “there” with each other because somehow they were betraying Zak. Personally, I think that’s the one thing that canon did get right about pilots; she really did meet the wrong brother first. We as humans have unwritten rules when it comes to friends and significant others; you don’t date your friend’s girl no matter what; breaks the guy code. Lee dating his baby brother whom he help raise would be truest betrayal of that code. They never got past Zak in many ways. The show never gave us closure on Zak and he was always portrayed as this lovable person (he never had any flaws as far as we knew). It’s hard to envision such a sweet guy getting betrayed by his brother and his fiancé after his death.

How do you envision Lee and Zak’s relationship?

I totally agree with your assessment of Zak and Lee’s relationship. I do believe Lee loved Zak, how could he not since he had a big hand in raising him. But I also think that Zak got away with a lot, maybe it was Lee bailing him out or people over looking at it because he was Husker’s son; whereas Lee always wanted to prove himself, didn’t want special treatment. He wanted to be recognized for his own merits. Zak I can see taking a free ride if he could get one. I can see Zak resenting Lee for being the golden boy he was at the Academy, that’s a lot to live up to especially if your girl is the best pilot as well. Lee definitely resented Zak for getting special treatment and accepting it, always getting things handed to him and for meeting his right girl first. If nothing else, Lee had to resent Zak for meeting Kara because finally here was something that perfect for Lee and yet he couldn’t have it because again Zak got there first.

How do you picture Kara and Zak’s relationship? Do you see any parallels between Sam and Zak?

Kara and Zak had a easy going relationship. Kara decided where the relationship was going, she was in control. I can’t imagine Zak making any decisions because he seemed so inexperienced with serious relationships or may be too much of a playboy. Sometimes I think Zak’s feelings for Kara are parallel to those of puppy love. I don’t why, I just see Zak as worshipping the ground she walked on, hung on to her every word and Sam was much the same way. Zak and Sam were very much alike; they never wanted any sort of confrontation with Kara and even if they had one, it didn’t matter. Kara could keep her secrets buried and hidden with Zak and Sam; it was Starbuck that they knew, never the real Kara. I think Zak and Sam were in love with Starbuck; I think they loved this idea of an invincible woman. I suppose that’s why she had so much conflict with Lee because he knew the difference between Kara and Starbuck and he fought her on all of her bull shit.

How do you perceive the depth of feelings between Kara and Lee while Zak was alive? Do you believe they were in love at that early stage of her relationship?

I hate to say they it was attraction/love at first sight because it sounds so movie-ish. But I think it’s true; something clicked into place for Lee and Kara when she opened that door. I do believe they were in denial about the whole thing; their feelings and their attraction, after that. They had so many issues after Zak had died so I can only imagine what kind of torture feeling this ache in your heart but not being able to acknowledge it. If we take what we saw in Daybreak at face value, I don’t think Zak and Kara were engaged at that point but after the incident with Lee when Zak proposed Kara accepted, may be out of guilty or may be to justify that there really wasn’t anything between her and Lee. And I think that proves that they were falling for each other.

Re: Part I

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"Zak was the biggest obstacle in Kara and Lee’s relationship."
I'm not so sure about that. I mean, he was an obstacle for sure. I agree with what you said about guys code to dating. And I don't think Lee would have ever betrayed his brother that way. Nor would Kara, for that matter. He would want Kara to break up with him so they could be together and face all the awkwardness that would arise from this decision. However, when they first met, I don't think they were ready (were mature enough, perhaps) to make such a decision. So, back when they first met, I believe they were terribly afraid of the attraction/emotional connection they experienced and this fear was the biggest obstacle.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Lee "raised" Zac or took the part of a father figure to him just because I don't think the age difference between them was enough for that to be possible. However, I do believe, as the eldest, Lee was very protective of Zac and that forged a strong bond between them.

"I think Zak and Sam were in love with Starbuck; I think they loved this idea of an invincible woman. I suppose that’s why she had so much conflict with Lee because he knew the difference between Kara and Starbuck and he fought her on all of her bull shit."
Very good point.

Re: Part I

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

They never got past Zak in many ways. The show never gave us closure on Zak and he was always portrayed as this lovable person

You know, canon-wise, I can’t honestly say if they got passed Zak or not, mainly because of the reason you have pointed out, the writers never gave us a closure on the matter –and when they handled it, they did it poorly, just slipping ambiguous hints here and there (I think the mention him in YCGHA andf he's never mentioned again until UB… And maybe Lee’s comment in “Scar” about the dead guys was pointing to Zak, but I am not sure). However, I can definitely see the Zak issue as a part of Kara’s –not so sure about Lee- motivations to not allow herself to embrace her feelings for Lee –especially in S1 and S2 (the other big reason being the depth of her feelings for him and how much they scared the hell out of her, of course).

I can see Zak resenting Lee for being the golden boy he was at the Academy, that’s a lot to live up to especially if your girl is the best pilot as well. Lee definitely resented Zak for getting special treatment and accepting it, always getting things handed to him and for meeting his right girl first. If nothing else, Lee had to resent Zak for meeting Kara because finally here was something that perfect for Lee and yet he couldn’t have it because again Zak got there first.

Yeah, that’s how I see it. Of course they loved each other very much, but I can’t totally buy the resentment/jealousy from both sides as a part of their relationship, given the circumstances of their family environment and all.

I think Zak and Sam were in love with Starbuck; I think they loved this idea of an invincible woman.

Mmm… That’s an interesting take.

I hate to say they it was attraction/love at first sight because it sounds so movie-ish.

Hee. For me it was “love at first sight”! (well, more insta-connection or immediate attraction). If there’s something that the “Daybreak” flashbacks accomplish is showing how incredibly strong the attraction was for both of them right from the start. I don’t believe they were in denial, though, I have the feeling they were aware of what they felt to some extent, but did a wonderful job keeping it buried deep within them.

Part II

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

What’s the story behind the Lee/Kara/Zak picture she kept in her locker? How do you interpret the fact that the pic is folded so Lee is hidden?

Totally agree with your statement. I think that all three of them hung out after Lee and Kara were first introduced. First of all that would explain Kara’s statement during UB that Lee was the same way (jealous) when Zak was around. Second, they had put up the front that they weren’t attracted to each other and were just being nice for Zak’s sake. SO, if Kara started hanging pictures of her dead fiancé’s brother’s photos in her locker, it would raise question. Also, she could deny her feeling for Lee if she couldn’t see it. She hid him away like her dirty little secret because what kind of a girl is she that she is in love with one brother but willing to marry another (that whole mind set thanks Mommy dearest of course).

As far as the story behind it, IDK! I imagine it was nice sunny day may be the weekend when Lee came to visit and they played a game of pyramid at the park. Kara snuggling next to Zak and Lee standing away, once again both denying what was there.

Do you think Zak was aware of Lee and Kara's attraction/whatever you think they had?

I don’t think Zak was ever aware of Lee and Kara’s whatever because they were both so good at denying it themselves. I don’t think the pilots would have had those sly hands touching and such back then so no one would have picked up on thing.

Do you think Kara could have been truly happy with Zak once she met Lee?

No. I know that’s a bad thing to say but I think her relationship with Zak would have ended eventually even if she had never met Lee. I think she settled for Zak because he was the first persona that contradicted what her mother had shoved into her head. He was the first guy that loved her, just her, made her feeling special, and made the world revolve around her. BUT I think eventually may be 10 years down the line, Zak would’ve wanted more and Kara wouldn’t have been able to give him that. May be they would’ve had kids but Kara would just be flowing along. She had so many issues from childhood that she needed to deal with before she had a relationship with anyone.

What would have happened with Kara and Lee if Zak hadn’t died?

If Zak had lived then he would’ve been at the decommissioning ceremony or may be that never happened. So if the worlds ended then I think Kara and Lee would have gone to their graves with their love for each other. Unless somehow Zak figured it out because I can’t see Kara or Lee hurting Zak intentionally. Now if the worlds’ hadn’t ended then it would be as I mentioned in the question above. It might have happened but it wouldn’t have lasted. So the question is would Kara and Lee pursue anything after her relationship with Zak ended? I have a hard time answering this because I want to say that true love conquers all but real life is never that simple. The Adamas weren’t the average family, the grandfather was a prominent lawyer, the father was a military hero, the big bro was a golden boy of the fleet and then we have a daughter who is best damn pilot there is. They would be in the limelight; so how would Kara and Lee’s relationship be perceived, did Lee break his brother’s marriage/relationship up? What would Zak think? Would he give them his blessing, may be deep down he always knew? So in the end, I think Kara and Zak wouldn’t have lasted long, I don’t think they would have made it to the altar. So maybe, just maybe Kara and Lee finally would get a chance at happiness.


Sorry for the very wordy response. I can’t seem to shut up when it comes to pilots and their relationship.:)

Re: Part II

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

She had so many issues from childhood that she needed to deal with before she had a relationship with anyone.

This. I think she had to heal first in order to have a committed relationship –even though I always thought that Kara accepting her feelings for Lee was part of her healing process. I think Kara might have been happy with Zak without Lee in the picture, but once she met him… I am not sure, I guess I dig the “met the wrong brother first” concept --and its inherent tragedy-- too much.

And you are not wordy at all. Love reading this kind of essays answers!!! ;)

[innibis.livejournal.com]

I found an unexpected love for Zak when I started writing him.

How do you envision Lee and Zak’s relationship?

Typical of siblings that grew up in a difficult situation - a little dysfunctionally close with a confusing mix of parental role in the sibling bond - so a lot of love with some crossed wires due to being neglected as children.

How do you picture Kara and Zak’s relationship? Do you see any parallels between Sam and Zak?

Adoring, unquestioning Zak and Kara just over the moon in love, and giddy with being so loved in return. Mixed with Kara's sense of responsibility, as an instructor and superior officer. Not maternal per se, but I think she was very firmly in charge. And I think that Sam and Zak are similar only in their roles in Kara's life. And Sam seems to act, for her as an extension of that relationship. He is the dead guy that she can save, and that's really powerful. His last words to her as a non-hybrid were "you owe me". And she's always felt that about Sam - she owes Sam and she saves Sam because she feel that she owes Zak.

How do you perceive the depth of feelings between Kara and Lee while Zak was alive? Do you believe they were in love at that early stage of her relationhip?

I don't think they let themselves think about it. They understood there was attraction, they had an instinctual connection, they enjoyed their friendship, and they loved Zak. Because they loved Zak, that was enough to keep them from entertaining any but fleeting fantasies.

Do you think Zak was aware of Lee and Kara's attration/whatever you think they had?

Sort of. But I think in the way that he was thrilled that the two most important people in his life got along so much. That was important to him.

Do you think Kara could have been truly happy with Zak once she met Lee?

I don't know if Zak and Kara would have made it, but not because of Lee. I think they loved eack other a lot, but the fact that Kara passed Zak when she should have failed him sets off warning flags. She couldn't be honest with him. She was so focused on not disappointing him that she did something horribly, stupidly dangerous. She would rather pass a pilot who was not good enough then make her boyfriend sad, and that is not healthy.

What would have happened with Kara and Lee if Zak hadn’t died?

See above, but I think Kara would have married Zak and that she and Lee would have been friends but they would have kept their distance so as not to stoke the flames. I don't know if Kara and Zak would have made it.

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

I think they loved eack other a lot, but the fact that Kara passed Zak when she should have failed him sets off warning flags. She couldn't be honest with him. She was so focused on not disappointing him that she did something horribly, stupidly dangerous. She would rather pass a pilot who was not good enough then make her boyfriend sad, and that is not healthy.

I totally agree!

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Not maternal per se, but I think she was very firmly in charge.

I do see the relationship with a certain maternal vibe from Kara –mainly because I totally see her being in charge and having the control of the relationship. And in my personal canon I have always perceived Sam and Zak as a sorta similar kind of guy –easy going and uncomplicated (clearly different from Lee) and utterly captivated by her.

And she's always felt that about Sam - she owes Sam and she saves Sam because she feel that she owes Zak.

Yes, totally agree. I feel like she owed everyone except herself, sadly.

Because they loved Zak, that was enough to keep them from entertaining any but fleeting fantasies.

Heh. I guess I am on the angsty side ;)

She would rather pass a pilot who was not good enough then make her boyfriend sad, and that is not healthy.

Agree. I think she first needed to heal and get over all her issues to have a healthy and committed relationship.

Part I

[nazkey.livejournal.com]

What a great topic! And for once, I actually have time to answer in real time and not after everyone's gone to bed ;-)


How did Zak as an entity shape Lee and Kara’s relationship? How did the canon-ish assessment that “Kara met the wrong brother first” affect their relationship?

Well, if we stick strictly with canon, obviously, Zak introduced K & L. I think that Zak grounded them. If we go with the skimpy information we have on Zak (which is not very objective btw, because it's always presented through either Kara, Lee or even worse, Adama's POV's), he seemed to be a relatively easy going, chill kinda guy. K & L's powder keg needed that calm influence between them. I feel that if they hadn't met through Zak and if he wasn't "between" them, their passion would have burned them up. Zak anchored them, unfortunately to their detriment, but still.

How do you envision Lee and Zak’s relationship?

Again, this is something that's not delved in to deeply in canon, but I feel that Lee was definitely a surrogate father to Zak. We know Adama was always absent and we know that their mother was a mess, and we know that Lee is the responsible, do-the-right-thing guy, so it stands to reason that he took care of his little brother and was there for him as the male role model, as much as he could. This is established in the mini when he confronts Adama. The way he defends Zak to his father is almost paternal.

How do you picture Kara and Zak’s relationship? Do you see any parallels between Sam and Zak?

Oh absolutely! I really feel that when it comes to love, excluding Lee, Kara always goes for the easy, non-complicated guy. Zak and Sam are both strong in their own ways, but they don't threaten her emotionally. They just "give" and she takes. There is minimal risk on her part in that she really doesn't have to lose herself with them and I think this is a very important point because when it comes to her feelings for Lee, the implications (implied because canon doesn't ever really explain it) are that she will lose herself, lose control and just be consumed by Lee and that's what scares the crap out of her. Zak and Sam are both safe. In a bad analogy, it's almost like having a Golden Retriever. You get the unconditional, soft, mushy love, no matter what.

Re: Part I

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"There is minimal risk on her part in that she really doesn't have to lose herself with them and I think this is a very important point because when it comes to her feelings for Lee, the implications (implied because canon doesn't ever really explain it) are that she will lose herself, lose control and just be consumed by Lee and that's what scares the crap out of her."

That is exactly what I think.

Re: Part I

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I feel that if they hadn't met through Zak and if he wasn't "between" them, their passion would have burned them up.

I always tend to think that if they had met first, they would have possibly been a functional and happy couple –of course they would have had their problems, especially given the volatile quality of their relationhip, but I firmly believe they could have make it work.

Zak and Sam are both strong in their own ways, but they don't threaten her emotionally. They just "give" and she takes.

Just what I think.

In a bad analogy, it's almost like having a Golden Retriever. You get the unconditional, soft, mushy love, no matter what.

LOL. But I really like Golden Retrievers and that sort of “unconditional love” you describe... not so much ;P

Re: Part I

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

There is minimal risk on her part in that she really doesn't have to lose herself with them and I think this is a very important point because when it comes to her feelings for Lee, the implications (implied because canon doesn't ever really explain it) are that she will lose herself, lose control and just be consumed by Lee and that's what scares the crap out of her.

It's definitely about staying in control for her, and keeping herself from relying too heavily on anyone, I think. Her father left when she was little, her mother was abusive, and the volatility of things with Lee feeling out of her control would have been why she stuck with uncomplicated, devoted guys.

Part II

[nazkey.livejournal.com]

How do you perceive the depth of feelings between Kara and Lee while Zak was alive? Do you believe they were in love at that early stage of her relationhip?

I feel that there is definitely an immediate and strong physical attraction. The physical pull and the obvious close relationship between Zak & Lee probably meant that K/L saw a lot of each other and became friends. You do get the sense that they were definitely friends before Zak died and his death and the way our dysfunctional pilots dealt with it kept them apart with minimal contact for two years.

What’s the story behind the Lee/Kara/Zak picture she kept in her locker? How do you interpret the fact that the pic is folded so Lee is hidden?

If we think about K/L relationship while Zak was alive and agree that they were ridiculously attracted to each other and became friends, then the picture could be of the three of them doing something together and someone simply taking a snap shot. I think that Kara is smart enough to know that her attraction to Lee goes way deeper than anything she's ever felt and pairing that with her guilt for passing Zak probably got her to fold the picture the way she did so that she can focus ONLY on Zak (i.e. feed her guilt, which she is really good at, btw) instead of Lee. I love that the picture has Lee standing apart from them. It's very telling of their relationship, I think.

Do you think Zak was aware of Lee and Kara's attration/whatever you think they had?

He probably sees the closeness, but I don't think that Zak knew Lee as well as Lee knew him. Knowing Lee, he was probably so good at hiding his feelings in front of Zak that Zak could never even tell. Of course, Kara is the master of hiding HER feelings and I don't think she shared a lot of herself with Zak so no, I don't think Zak was aware of the depth of the attraction. Frankly, I think Kara and Lee weren't necessarily aware of how deep their connection went. They probably constantly checked themselves. Again, this was how it seemed until the stupid, stupid scene in DB with the damn dining room table and the double-dog dare. *rolls eyes*

Do you think Kara could have been truly happy with Zak once she met Lee?

Yes and no. Kara would've made the best of it. That's what she always does. Look at her and Sam. Yes, there would've been nights or moments of contemplation, but overall, she would've made it work. Lee, on the other hand wouldn't have been able to handle it so well. Again, if we look at Zak and Sam as parallels, Kara is more at peace with her decision than Lee during the year on NC.

What would have happened with Kara and Lee if Zak hadn’t died?

Unless Lee actually stepped over the line (which I don't think he ever would've) and let Kara know how he felt, nothing. Kara and Zak would've gotten married and that would've been that. I think Kara and Zak would've made it until the point when maybe Zak's lack of talent in flying and his possibly feeling inferior to Kara caused a rift. We don't know much about canon Zak, but if he couldn't handle the pressure of being less than worthy of the mighty Starbuck, then things would've definitely deteriorated. Even if they didn't end up together, I really don't see Lee ever stepping up and ending up with Kara. He would've still felt that it was betraying Zak in some way and everyone would've questioned their loyalty to Zak and Lee couldn't handle that.

PS I love our pilots in fanon, but I have to say, I have serious issues with Lee in general in canon. That's a topic that I would gladly discuss later.

Re: Part II

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I love our pilots in fanon, but I have to say, I have serious issues with Lee in general in canon. That's a topic that I would gladly discuss later.

Oh, seriously? **is curious** Personally, I have always defined myself as a Kara girl and never got Lee so well, but I love him so, so much (both in canon and fanon).

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

OMG, so many questions...
I have joined some of them. The answers are still very long, though.

How did Zak as an entity shape Lee and Kara’s relationship? How did the canon-ish assessment that “Kara met the wrong brother first” affect their relationship? How do you perceive the depth of feelings between Kara and Lee while Zak was alive? Do you believe they were in love at that early stage of her relationhip?

I have absolutely no doubt that she met the wrong brother first since I see Kara and Lee as true soulmates, destined to find each other and sharing a connection that went beyond the scope of a romantic relationship.
The way I see it, they both realized that they had a powerful connection from the very beginning . People seem to focus a lot on the near frak on the table but forget that there was a lot of soul sharing in the conversation that preceded it – it seemed to me that they had spent the night talking about things (life views, career choices , plans for the future, life and death) that are hardly the topic of conversation between casual acquaintances and, considering that they both seem to be very private people , not topics they would usually discuss with just anyone. Even the table thing was something so out of character for both of them really, that it shows the power of that very first meeting. They lost control in such a way that they almost betrayed someone they cared so deeply about after knowing each other for just a few hours. That must have scared the hell out of them.
What I’m trying to say is that I think it wasn’t just Zac (and later his memory) that shaped their relationship. It was also their own fear about their feelings. In this sense, while alive, Zac kept them apart and made them feel embarrassed for wanting what they couldn’t have. But , at the same time, he kind of protected them from each other, and the powerful feelings they weren’t ready to deal with. In a way he made it easier for them because he gave them the perfect excuse not to expose themselves to the unknown and forced them to be just friends. After he died, the barrier is no longer there but it is replaced by guilt because part of them had always wanted him “gone” so that they wouldn’t have excuses anymore.

How do you envision Lee and Zak’s relationship?

They loved each other , but , given what we know about the Adama family , I agree that their relationship was way more complicated than it seemed on the surface and Kara certainly added a new level to the whole thing (see first question). I also agree there would be “a love-resentment-admiration-jealousy combo” . And I think it would work both ways. In short, not such an unusual relationship between siblings. But the fact that they both had to deal with mom’s mood swings/drinking without the support of a father, they formed a bond that was stronger than most.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

How do you picture Kara and Zak’s relationship? Do you see any parallels between Sam and Zak?

I never thought about this (parallels between Sam and Zac). I guess they represented non-threatening , fulfilling relationships, the kind that would have made her (or anyone else) pretty happy – until you find your soulmate, that is. That is something really, really rare and it may be very scary to realize that there is someone out there who can really complete you and make you need something you never realized you needed.

What’s the story behind the Lee/Kara/Zak picture she kept in her locker? How do you interpret the fact that the pic is folded so Lee is hidden?
I think it all goes back to her feelings of fear and guilt, as well. I mean she must have had other pictures of Zac. Why would she choose that had Lee in it and then deliberately hide it. I think it is an example of her using Zac as a barrier. It is perfectly acceptable for her to have a picture of her dead boyfriend. But how could she explain (to others as well as herself) a picture of Lee? Perfect excuse, he is Zac’s brother, “but that is not the reason I have this particular picture. It’s just a coincidence.”

Do you think Zak was aware of Lee and Kara's attration/whatever you think they had?
Difficult to say, given that Lee and Kara themselves tried so hard and so long to convince themselves that there was nothing there but friendship and we don’t really know how often the three of time together. If he never noticed anything, it was a matter of time before he eventually did (if he had lived of course).

Do you think Kara could have been truly happy with Zak once she met Lee? What would have happened with Kara and Lee if Zak hadn’t died?
If Kara had never met Lee, she and Zac would have had a chance. After they met, however, I don’t believe they would have made it. If she had the guts to face her fears , she would have broken up with Zac and, sooner or later, she and Lee would have eventually got together. If they had got married, I don’t think it would have lasted very long. Both of them (and Lee) would have been unhappy in the long run.

[(Anonymous)]

Interesting questions and I love all the answers so far.
But the the other posts got me thinking, I'd love to read fic, in which Kara and Zac broke up without Lee factoring into it and K/L starting something but being unsure how to procede (since they think Zac would hate them).
Anyone know if there's something like that out there?

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Funny you should ask. I was going to rec this fic in my own comment, but I'll just do it here since it mostly fits your request. This very long and very fabulous fic was recced to me by cynicalshadows.

Starting Over (http://suffolkgirl.livejournal.com/26174.html#cutid1) by suffolkgirl

[stripes13.livejournal.com]

Let's see

How do you envision Lee and Zak’s relationship?

They loved each other. I think that Lee combined the role of older brother with that of the role of father (whether he meant to do so or not), and because of this he became very protective of Zak, and was able to keep Zak blind to much of the negative aspects of their parents. Because of this, Lee may have harbored some resentment towards Zak (but only during incredibly dark and bitter moments).

How do you picture Kara and Zak’s relationship?

I honestly think that Kara was deeply in love with Zak, and with the newness of allowing herself to be loved. Due to both her position as Zak's instructor and her personality, Kara was in control of the relationship.

I adore the way their relationship was written in "The Touch I Was Wanting From Her".

How do you perceive the depth of feelings between Kara and Lee while Zak was alive? Do you believe they were in love at that early stage of her relationhip?

I'm going to agree with innibis here. I think they were very attracted to each other, and that they connected well, but were unwilling to look too hard at any other emotional feelings that might have been present because of how much they both loved Zak.

As for the second part of that question, I think that Lee would have been more emotionally honest with himself. That he might be in love with Kara. I think that Kara (if she was honest with herself) would admit to being confused about her feelings for Lee. She was in love with Zak, and had no desire to see that change, but Lee stirred up feelings that she was unfamiliar with.

Do you think Zak was aware of Lee and Kara's attraction/whatever you think they had?

...Kind of. I think he could see that they connected well, but I think that Zak understood Kara at that point in time, and he knew that she wouldn't betray him.

Do you think Kara could have been truly happy with Zak once she met Lee?

I don't know. Her need to pass him tells us a lot about how afraid she was of losing Zak. I think whether or not Kara and Zak would have lasted has to do with the level of honesty between them. Kara passes Zak because she was afraid to lose him, which suggests that while she was in love with him, she couldn't bring herself to tell him the truth about something he wanted so desperately.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm just going to make a general comment, because others have answered the questions much more eloquently than I could have.

I find it interesting that Kara can't find the courage to tell Zak he's not good enough, but doesn't seem to mind telling Lee about his shortcomings. I think she probably learnt her lesson but she also percieves Zak as a weaker person than Lee. I don't know what that means for their relationship, had Zak not died, but it makes it fairly clear to me that she wouldn't have left him especially not for Lee, because she would have been afraid to hurt him like that.
This would also fit with the theory of Lee being protective of Zak growing up, so Zak would subconsciously put himself in the role of or give off the vibe of someone in need of protection.

Next (and this is more of an observation than a comment) I always thought that the flashbacks in season one and in the finale are quite different in tone, especially in their potrayal of Kara. Kara seemed generally more troubled, not only because of Zak's test.

I also believe (with Lee's comment about that Major and the finale flashback) that RDM thought Kara was a bit wild back then and might have cheated on Zak. While I don't share that believe I think it would be interesting to find out how Lee would have reacted when he found Kara had cheated while drunk, somehow I don't think he would have told Zak, but idk.

[muddlingalong.livejournal.com]

I'm no good at staying on topic, so I'm just going to blurt.

My favourite summary/explanation of the Zak/Kara/Lee situation comes from a fic, but I suck at remembering titles and authors as well. The idea goes that one night Zak told Kara all about the man he wanted to be, and that what was what really put Kara over the edge and when she started loving Zak. But then she met Lee and realised that the man Zak described already existed in his older brother. I think I love this explanation because it means, not only was it love at first sight, but KARA LOVED LEE BEFORE SHE EVER MET HIM!!!!!

Perhaps contradictory to that, I think if Zak had lived and in the absence of the attack on the home worlds, Kara and Zak would have gotten married and stayed together. I think, if they did split, it would have been Zak that pulled away, because once she realised she loved his brother, Kara would hold on to Zak for dear life and out of sheer stubbornness. At some point, it would have to be that losing Zak would be losing Lee too, so Kara would be willfully blind to problems with the relationship.

As for Lee and Zak, I think in some ways Lee stays this lonely little boy who just wants to be loved. If you go with the theory that Bill wasn't around much (if at all) and Carolanne wasn't really much help either, Lee had to grow up much to early and look after himself and Zak and I'm sure his mother too from time to time. I can see him protecting Zak because he loved him and not openly resenting him, but I imagine that at the times there'd be this little voice in Lee's head saying 'what about me?' Like, Lee grew up so Zak could stay a kid, and they love each other and everything, but Lee's buttoned down so tight. I don't really know how to explain myself properly.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Hello! I'd like to digress slightly with a few general comments, given that I agree very much with previous posters in their take on specific Zak-Kara-Lee dynamics.

Both Kara and Lee had crummy, abusive childhoods, but it strikes me that the emotional lesson Lee learned was that he couldn't count on other people, whereas the lesson Kara internalized was that other people couldn't count on her. Kara, being an only child, remained emotionally dependent on her parents even when she hated them, and she believed at some level that she deserved to be hurt and left - the classic "you think you're bad luck, a cancer that needs to be removed." Lee, on the other hand, never believed that he deserved to be left and hurt, perhaps in part because he could see that Zak was being hurt and left, too, and his defensive streak and protectiveness toward his brother helped to crystallize his own sense of righteous anger at the injustice of the whole situation. He knew it wasn't right, and he knew who to blame, and in taking care of Zak I think he emerged from his messed-up youth with a sense of self-worth and responsibility that Kara lacked. She viewed herself as unworthy and unstable, but she also craved approval and love, while Lee learned to stand apart and to value himself even - perhaps especially - when it meant risking disapproval and hostility. I think Zak made Lee just as much as Lee shaped Zak; without his brother, I think Lee might paradoxically have turned out a lot more like Kara, rather than developing into a complementary, challenging personality.

And having formed these basic tendencies - stand apart vs. seek love/approval, blame others vs. blame yourself - I think you can see the results play out in Kara and Lee's wider relationships. Kara is the one who connects instinctively with others and loves people almost despite herself, whereas Lee rarely emotionally connects with anyone, though he is protective of many. I mean, think about the people Kara got casually or circumstantially involved with and grew to love sincerely and deeply: Zak and Sam romantically, but also Helo as a close friend, Kacey as a surrogate daughter, Adama as a surrogate father, Kat as a surrogate (dysfunctional) sister, Sharon as a sometimes confidante, eventually Tigh as a friend and fellow sufferer, even abusers like Leoben and her parents became the focus of both empathy and loathing for her. It's amazing the network of emotional ties radiating out from her.

And Lee? It's so hard for him to form and maintain such ties; he has his father and Roslin, both of which are problematic, professional, reserved, contested but deeply felt relationships. He has Romo, the ultimate in emotional calculation ~ that's the only friendship I saw him form (he works out with Helo, but they aren't emotionally close the way Kara and Helo are). There's Dee, but honestly I never saw much emotional connection there (protectiveness and responsibility, sure. Respect and affection, eventually. More than that...hard to say). And then he has Kara, who pulls out of him every single emotional tie that he has such trouble offering to others: sibling, best friend, professional rival, lover, wife. She's his surrogate *everything.* She is a great, blazing, irresistable exception to his default "stand apart and be protective" mode. But he's still scared that he can't rely on her, and she's still scared she can't rely on herself, emotionally.

I'm not really sure where I'm going with all this, except to reiterate that loving Zak in the broader context of their messed-up families was a formative experience for both of them, and that I think the results were somewhat counterintuitive in their later emotional development.

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Both Kara and Lee had crummy, abusive childhoods, but it strikes me that the emotional lesson Lee learned was that he couldn't count on other people, whereas the lesson Kara internalized was that other people couldn't count on her.

O.M.G. That's it, isn't it? Wow...

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

You seem to have found THE TOPIC to get essays out of all of us! Let's see...

How did Zak as an entity shape Lee and Kara’s relationship? How did the canon-ish assessment that “Kara met the wrong brother first” affect their relationship?

Given the alcoholic mother (and Lee implies abusive if not just neglecting in one of his shouting matches with Adama), I actually think both Lee and Kara had kind of a maternal thing with Zak. Lee did the bulk of the nurturing, and Kara liked that Zak was submissive/protectable. Obviously, Kara being with Zak forced her and Lee into being surrogate family, and as canon conversations lead us to believe, close friends. The remarks about repeatedly getting Kara out of hack always made me wonder if she would call Lee instead of Zak and they'd not tell him to "protect" him, or if Lee was the go to guy when Zak was away training, or if she only got into trouble when Zak was gone...

How do you envision Lee and Zak’s relationship?

I think Lee raised him. I used to work at a camp with some kids with dysfunctional parents. The oldest son was a lot like Lee, trying to be Mr. Everything, raising younger siblings that were only a couple of years younger. I also agree that there was definitely jealousy on both sides. Lee jealous that Zak had a childhood, and Zak that Lee was Mr. Perfect that he'd never live up to.

How do you picture Kara and Zak’s relationship? Do you see any parallels between Sam and Zak?

One word. Easy. And totally parallel to Kara/Sam. Kara wanted to feel in control, and keep her heart safe, and both Sam and Zak would have stayed with her unless she totally frakked up. And if they did leave, she'd get over them.

How do you perceive the depth of feelings between Kara and Lee while Zak was alive? Do you believe they were in love at that early stage of their relationship?

I won't go so far as to say love back then. Stripes already nailed it. Kara would have been confused, and Lee might have been more honest with himself, but I don't know if he would have allowed himself to think all the way to love. The level of betrayal involved in even thinking it, to him, would have kept him thinking it ended at attracted.

What’s the story behind the Lee/Kara/Zak picture she kept in her locker? How do you interpret the fact that the pic is folded so Lee is hidden?

Someday I will write that story. Damao makes the point I was going to, that Kara must have had at least one other picture of Zak. The one she had with her on her posting on Galactica is one with Lee in it, which does say a lot. You're travelling light, you have your one picture, of you and your dead fiance, and sometimes, when no one's looking, you flip it over and wonder what would have happened if you met the right brother first. *sigh*

Do you think Zak was aware of Lee and Kara's attraction/whatever you think they had?

If the eye fraks on Galactica were any indication, how could he not know? I believe they all spent a lot of time together, and things were bound to get weird. Conversations turn too personal and someone blushes, Kara falls on Lee on the pyramid court and doesn't get up fast enough. I think he was self-confident enough to not worry, though. He knew his brother was about being good. And if he knew Kara at all and not just Starbuck, he'd know she would be loyal.

Do you think Kara could have been truly happy with Zak once she met Lee?

Truly happy is tough to nail down. I think she would have been as happy with Zak as she thought she deserved. I don't think she believed she deserved someone like Lee until the very end of the show, which was, of course, too late.

What would have happened with Kara and Lee if Zak hadn’t died?

If Zak hadn't died, Kara might not have been on Galactica when the worlds ended. If she wasn't stationed on the Pegasus, she might be dead. I think if Zak was alive when the Cylons attacked, both he and Lee would have been on Galactica for the decommissioning/retirement, and if Kara came with him, AWKWARD! If they'd managed to keep their feelings in check before the war, being all on Galactica would have been the breaking point, I think.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

"Truly happy is tough to nail down. I think she would have been as happy with Zak as she thought she deserved. I don't think she believed she deserved someone like Lee until the very end of the show, which was, of course, too late."

I enjoyed your whole comment, but was particularly struck by that observation. Very insightful.

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

I don't really have much to add. I once commented that Zak was the most important non-existent character I'd ever seen in a show. Mostly, I think that referred to S1 Kara and Lee, because he felt like a huge weight between them at several points. He always hung in the background. Almost never seen, rarely mentioned, but always the elephant in the corner.

I mentioned yesterday that I think he is part of the reason pilots used each others' names so often. I stand by that. As much as it was a connection, it was also a reminder of how they met and exactly who they were supposed to be to each other, and a punishment for feeling everything they did, even when they believed they shouldn't have.

Re: the photograph... I'm kinda conflicted on it. We've gotten information that seems to indicate that picture should be impossible, but so much of S1 hinted at such a long history between the two of them that it's really difficult to interpret what actually happened. Without the podcast that stated they never saw each other between the table and the funeral, I would say that Zak and Lee were very close, so the three of them spent a lot of time together. Lee likely tried to punish both of them by getting into some kind of relationship, but was never really good at hiding how he felt about Kara, so tried to pull it out as his usual aloofness, which gets Kara's back up (see UB: making the same mistakes he made when they met). So she rubs in how happy she is with Zak (hence hanging on him in that photograph), while Lee looks on, unimpressed and more jealous than he can admit to himself. Then at the funeral, Lee is just so damn mad and ultimately ends up walking out of her life because he won't forgive his father. So she says, who needs him? And folds him out of the picture as if he'd never been there. Except that he was always there, in the shadows.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Mostly, I think that referred to S1 Kara and Lee, because he felt like a huge weight between them at several points.

Yep, especially in S1 (I always found it very frustrating that they seemed to forget all about him later. Such a waste, because it was the perfect plot device to keep them apart --if that's what they wanted--, without adding third parties to the whole mess).

Without the podcast that stated they never saw each other between the table and the funeral,

The podcast said so? Really? I could never bring myself to hear it... It doesn't make sense at all. Sigh.