Daily Pilots Post: Here Be the Angst...
Apr. 29th, 2010 03:45 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
cosetteferaud.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
no_takebacksA couple of weeks ago we had a wonderful discussion about pilots backstory. But me being me –an utterly fascinated by pre-mini pilots shipper--, I’d love to devote this post to the biggest McGuffin of the history of McGuffins…
I mean, what do we really know about Zak regarded as canon? He was Lee’s little brother and Kara’s fiancé. The two fell in love while they were at the Academy –Zak training to become a viper pilot and Kara working as a flight instructor. Kara passed him despite his lack of skills because she couldn’t crush his dreams and, in a heartbreaking twist of fate, Zak died in an accident while flying two years prior to the cylon attacks… Kara always blamed herself for his death. Lee always blamed his father. Apart from that information, though, Zak always was an obscure character and primarily a (very interesting) plot device to set up the Kara/Lee epic angst scenario. Sadly, I always felt that the show failed in dealing with the Zak issue and the consequences of the emotional betrayal that came along with Kara and Lee's feelings/attraction for each other...
…Which leads me to the discussion topic for today’s post: How did Zak as an entity shape Lee and Kara’s relationship? How did the canon-ish assessment that “Kara met the wrong brother first” affect their relationship?
And also, some lesser questions to debate…
(of course, answer the ones you feel like :))
(also, I have included my own perceptions here and there, hope you don’t mind... Feel free to disagree! :)).
How do you envision Lee and Zak’s relationship?
(They loved each other deeply, sure, but I always thought that their relationship was way more complicated underneath the surface, especially given the Adama family dynamics –absent father and alcoholic/abusive mother--, and the implication that Lee was mostly responsible for Zak and acted as a protective older brother). Maybe a love-resentment-admiration-jealousy combo actually makes sense.
How do you picture Kara and Zak’s relationship? Do you see any parallels between Sam and Zak?
(Personally, aside from the obvious plot device nature of both characters, I tend to see them as a very similar kind of partner to Kara. Both easy-going, nice and relatively healthy on a psychological level. I have always envisioned Kara as someone who needed to be in control of her romantic relationships and avoided close intimacy on an emotional level –due to her self-loathing, her emotional vulnerability and fear of rejection. We know that Kara was in a position of dominance --by rank, qualifications, experience, position, and age-- with Zak, and also with Sam had a dominant role in most of their interactions --Sam was generally deferrential to Kara's wishes and, in those rare occasions when he confronted her –demanding a more committed relationship, for example--, she closed him out and rejected him. Despite this dynamic I always felt that Kara was genuinely comfortable with both Zak and Sam (when Lee wasn’t in the bigger picture, at least). So I can certainly see some similarities between her death fiancé and his husband.
Also, I am not implying that this sort of somewhat too uneven relationships are necessarily dysfunctional, I guess the circumstances surrounding them play a big role. And the Kara we see in the flashbacks doesn't seem to have the extent of baggage that she does once we meet her in the mini and beyond –I truly think she was genuinely happy with Zak and, to a lesser extent, with Sam.
How do you perceive the depth of feelings between Kara and Lee while Zak was alive? Do you believe they were in love at that early stage of their relationhip?
What’s the story behind the Lee/Kara/Zak picture she kept in her locker? How do you interpret the fact that the pic is folded so Lee is hidden?
(Ooooh, I find it so telling! I always read it as a very graphic metaphor of Kara and Lee’s status quo when Zak was alive. When I first saw that particular moment, it suddenly hit me that Kara was possibly in love with Lee but couldn’t allow herself to acknowledge it. I mean, who folds pictures this way?).
Do you think Zak was aware of Lee and Kara's attraction/whatever you think they had?
Do you think Kara could have been truly happy with Zak once she met Lee?
(maybe the politically correct answer here is “yes”, but deep down I'm not so sure. I have always conceived Kara and Lee as true soulmates, kind of inevitable… And I have this theory that Lee –and Kara’s feelings for him-- was the validation of all those things Socrata said about her being a cancer and a curse. I mean, she finally finds in Zak a guy who loves her unconditionally and makes her happy, and then, bam! The big ephiphany; she meets his big brother and they have that immediate, bone-deep connection. And the attraction never fades, no matter how hard she tries to suppress or control it. How are you supposed to get over this? Of course she would have tried, but the possibility that the whole mess would have blown up in their faces was always there).
What would have happened with Kara and Lee if Zak hadn’t died?
And I know the post is sort of rambly, but please, discuss!!! :D
Also, for all the newbies, a must-read fanon bibliography ;)
“Angle of Descent” by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
daphnaea . “She thinks that if they were ever married, they’d have a throwing pots and pans, waking up the neighbors kind of life. Then a wave of guilt pulls her under. She expunges the word ‘married’ from her mental vocabulary.”
“All Feelings But This One” bystars_like_dust . Kara, Zak and Lee in 16,800 something words. One of my all time faves.
“Circumstance” byelly427 . Zak POV. The “Decline and Fall” remix. "It's fine, he wants to say, but it's not, it's so not. He loves her enough for it not to be fine anymore.
“Truth or Dare” bylotus79 . Zak dares his girlfriend to kiss his brother. Full on the lips, for at least sixty seconds.
“Drinking Games” byelly427 . The 'Never Have I Ever' ("Truth or Dare") remix. Later, years later, Zak can joke with Lee about being a girlfriend stealer, but there's a little bit of truth in every 'just kidding.'
“Simulations” bydaphnaea . "If there was one thing Kara Thrace was worse at than relationships, it was family, and she was already having enough trouble surviving the former without throwing the latter into the mix on top of it.
“Fearful Symmetry”byleda13 . Kara (gen, backstoryish). But Lee's worse, because he's like the tiny crystal viper; he lets you leave him. He lets you ignore him. He even lets you hurt him and then puts himself back together and waits. And that's so much worse, because one time he won't be able to, won't be able to put himself back together, and you'll have broken something else you should never even have had the arrogance to touch.
“You, and a Promise” byfoxrayne . ”Her voice was low and husky but somehow it had that edge that kept people listening, “I feel at peace on the beach. I feel at home when I’m with Zak,” she paused and looked at him, “and when I’m with you.”
“Aerilon Girls Are Easy” byflowrs4ophelia . Without a war to bring them back together, it takes a lot for Kara and Lee to be able to forgive each other. And themselves.
“Brotherly Advice” bytaragel . "Zak will always be his little brother and Lee’s job will always be to protect him."
“Forbidden Fruit” bylotus79 . The "Brotherly Advice" remix. Months later you’ll wonder if this is when your game of ‘make Lee want to frak you’ really started.
"Tomorrow’s Dust (Flares Into Breath)" byspamdilemma . "Lee loves first, and you follow."
“The Touch I Was Wanting From Her” byleiascully . "These Adamas, they spun her around. That’s a very interesting portrait of the Kara/Zak dynamic, making Zak kind of acceptant of Kara’s flirting -- and being that part of the reason why she stays with him. Also, one of the few fics I’ve read where Kara's love for Zak overshadows her attraction to Lee.
"Borrowed Time" byworkerbee73 . "There was nothing else to say, nothing to do. Nothing else for it. She had simply met the wrong brother first." WIP (soon to be finished --hopefully!).
ZAK!!
(and his circumstances)
I mean, what do we really know about Zak regarded as canon? He was Lee’s little brother and Kara’s fiancé. The two fell in love while they were at the Academy –Zak training to become a viper pilot and Kara working as a flight instructor. Kara passed him despite his lack of skills because she couldn’t crush his dreams and, in a heartbreaking twist of fate, Zak died in an accident while flying two years prior to the cylon attacks… Kara always blamed herself for his death. Lee always blamed his father. Apart from that information, though, Zak always was an obscure character and primarily a (very interesting) plot device to set up the Kara/Lee epic angst scenario. Sadly, I always felt that the show failed in dealing with the Zak issue and the consequences of the emotional betrayal that came along with Kara and Lee's feelings/attraction for each other...
…Which leads me to the discussion topic for today’s post: How did Zak as an entity shape Lee and Kara’s relationship? How did the canon-ish assessment that “Kara met the wrong brother first” affect their relationship?
And also, some lesser questions to debate…
(of course, answer the ones you feel like :))
(also, I have included my own perceptions here and there, hope you don’t mind... Feel free to disagree! :)).
How do you envision Lee and Zak’s relationship?
(They loved each other deeply, sure, but I always thought that their relationship was way more complicated underneath the surface, especially given the Adama family dynamics –absent father and alcoholic/abusive mother--, and the implication that Lee was mostly responsible for Zak and acted as a protective older brother). Maybe a love-resentment-admiration-jealousy combo actually makes sense.
How do you picture Kara and Zak’s relationship? Do you see any parallels between Sam and Zak?
(Personally, aside from the obvious plot device nature of both characters, I tend to see them as a very similar kind of partner to Kara. Both easy-going, nice and relatively healthy on a psychological level. I have always envisioned Kara as someone who needed to be in control of her romantic relationships and avoided close intimacy on an emotional level –due to her self-loathing, her emotional vulnerability and fear of rejection. We know that Kara was in a position of dominance --by rank, qualifications, experience, position, and age-- with Zak, and also with Sam had a dominant role in most of their interactions --Sam was generally deferrential to Kara's wishes and, in those rare occasions when he confronted her –demanding a more committed relationship, for example--, she closed him out and rejected him. Despite this dynamic I always felt that Kara was genuinely comfortable with both Zak and Sam (when Lee wasn’t in the bigger picture, at least). So I can certainly see some similarities between her death fiancé and his husband.
Also, I am not implying that this sort of somewhat too uneven relationships are necessarily dysfunctional, I guess the circumstances surrounding them play a big role. And the Kara we see in the flashbacks doesn't seem to have the extent of baggage that she does once we meet her in the mini and beyond –I truly think she was genuinely happy with Zak and, to a lesser extent, with Sam.
How do you perceive the depth of feelings between Kara and Lee while Zak was alive? Do you believe they were in love at that early stage of their relationhip?
What’s the story behind the Lee/Kara/Zak picture she kept in her locker? How do you interpret the fact that the pic is folded so Lee is hidden?
(Ooooh, I find it so telling! I always read it as a very graphic metaphor of Kara and Lee’s status quo when Zak was alive. When I first saw that particular moment, it suddenly hit me that Kara was possibly in love with Lee but couldn’t allow herself to acknowledge it. I mean, who folds pictures this way?).
Do you think Zak was aware of Lee and Kara's attraction/whatever you think they had?
Do you think Kara could have been truly happy with Zak once she met Lee?
(maybe the politically correct answer here is “yes”, but deep down I'm not so sure. I have always conceived Kara and Lee as true soulmates, kind of inevitable… And I have this theory that Lee –and Kara’s feelings for him-- was the validation of all those things Socrata said about her being a cancer and a curse. I mean, she finally finds in Zak a guy who loves her unconditionally and makes her happy, and then, bam! The big ephiphany; she meets his big brother and they have that immediate, bone-deep connection. And the attraction never fades, no matter how hard she tries to suppress or control it. How are you supposed to get over this? Of course she would have tried, but the possibility that the whole mess would have blown up in their faces was always there).
What would have happened with Kara and Lee if Zak hadn’t died?
And I know the post is sort of rambly, but please, discuss!!! :D
Also, for all the newbies, a must-read fanon bibliography ;)
“Angle of Descent” by
daphnaea . “She thinks that if they were ever married, they’d have a throwing pots and pans, waking up the neighbors kind of life. Then a wave of guilt pulls her under. She expunges the word ‘married’ from her mental vocabulary.”“All Feelings But This One” by
stars_like_dust . Kara, Zak and Lee in 16,800 something words. One of my all time faves.“Circumstance” by
elly427 . Zak POV. The “Decline and Fall” remix. "It's fine, he wants to say, but it's not, it's so not. He loves her enough for it not to be fine anymore.“Truth or Dare” by
lotus79 . Zak dares his girlfriend to kiss his brother. Full on the lips, for at least sixty seconds.“Drinking Games” by
elly427 . The 'Never Have I Ever' ("Truth or Dare") remix. Later, years later, Zak can joke with Lee about being a girlfriend stealer, but there's a little bit of truth in every 'just kidding.'“Simulations” by
daphnaea . "If there was one thing Kara Thrace was worse at than relationships, it was family, and she was already having enough trouble surviving the former without throwing the latter into the mix on top of it.“Fearful Symmetry”by
leda13 . Kara (gen, backstoryish). But Lee's worse, because he's like the tiny crystal viper; he lets you leave him. He lets you ignore him. He even lets you hurt him and then puts himself back together and waits. And that's so much worse, because one time he won't be able to, won't be able to put himself back together, and you'll have broken something else you should never even have had the arrogance to touch.“You, and a Promise” by
foxrayne . ”Her voice was low and husky but somehow it had that edge that kept people listening, “I feel at peace on the beach. I feel at home when I’m with Zak,” she paused and looked at him, “and when I’m with you.”“Aerilon Girls Are Easy” by
flowrs4ophelia . Without a war to bring them back together, it takes a lot for Kara and Lee to be able to forgive each other. And themselves.“Brotherly Advice” by
taragel . "Zak will always be his little brother and Lee’s job will always be to protect him."“Forbidden Fruit” by
lotus79 . The "Brotherly Advice" remix. Months later you’ll wonder if this is when your game of ‘make Lee want to frak you’ really started."Tomorrow’s Dust (Flares Into Breath)" by
spamdilemma . "Lee loves first, and you follow."“The Touch I Was Wanting From Her” by
leiascully . "These Adamas, they spun her around. That’s a very interesting portrait of the Kara/Zak dynamic, making Zak kind of acceptant of Kara’s flirting -- and being that part of the reason why she stays with him. Also, one of the few fics I’ve read where Kara's love for Zak overshadows her attraction to Lee."Borrowed Time" by
workerbee73 . "There was nothing else to say, nothing to do. Nothing else for it. She had simply met the wrong brother first." WIP (soon to be finished --hopefully!).
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
Part II
Date: 2010-04-29 04:42 pm (UTC)Totally agree with your statement. I think that all three of them hung out after Lee and Kara were first introduced. First of all that would explain Kara’s statement during UB that Lee was the same way (jealous) when Zak was around. Second, they had put up the front that they weren’t attracted to each other and were just being nice for Zak’s sake. SO, if Kara started hanging pictures of her dead fiancé’s brother’s photos in her locker, it would raise question. Also, she could deny her feeling for Lee if she couldn’t see it. She hid him away like her dirty little secret because what kind of a girl is she that she is in love with one brother but willing to marry another (that whole mind set thanks Mommy dearest of course).
As far as the story behind it, IDK! I imagine it was nice sunny day may be the weekend when Lee came to visit and they played a game of pyramid at the park. Kara snuggling next to Zak and Lee standing away, once again both denying what was there.
Do you think Zak was aware of Lee and Kara's attraction/whatever you think they had?
I don’t think Zak was ever aware of Lee and Kara’s whatever because they were both so good at denying it themselves. I don’t think the pilots would have had those sly hands touching and such back then so no one would have picked up on thing.
Do you think Kara could have been truly happy with Zak once she met Lee?
No. I know that’s a bad thing to say but I think her relationship with Zak would have ended eventually even if she had never met Lee. I think she settled for Zak because he was the first persona that contradicted what her mother had shoved into her head. He was the first guy that loved her, just her, made her feeling special, and made the world revolve around her. BUT I think eventually may be 10 years down the line, Zak would’ve wanted more and Kara wouldn’t have been able to give him that. May be they would’ve had kids but Kara would just be flowing along. She had so many issues from childhood that she needed to deal with before she had a relationship with anyone.
What would have happened with Kara and Lee if Zak hadn’t died?
If Zak had lived then he would’ve been at the decommissioning ceremony or may be that never happened. So if the worlds ended then I think Kara and Lee would have gone to their graves with their love for each other. Unless somehow Zak figured it out because I can’t see Kara or Lee hurting Zak intentionally. Now if the worlds’ hadn’t ended then it would be as I mentioned in the question above. It might have happened but it wouldn’t have lasted. So the question is would Kara and Lee pursue anything after her relationship with Zak ended? I have a hard time answering this because I want to say that true love conquers all but real life is never that simple. The Adamas weren’t the average family, the grandfather was a prominent lawyer, the father was a military hero, the big bro was a golden boy of the fleet and then we have a daughter who is best damn pilot there is. They would be in the limelight; so how would Kara and Lee’s relationship be perceived, did Lee break his brother’s marriage/relationship up? What would Zak think? Would he give them his blessing, may be deep down he always knew? So in the end, I think Kara and Zak wouldn’t have lasted long, I don’t think they would have made it to the altar. So maybe, just maybe Kara and Lee finally would get a chance at happiness.
Sorry for the very wordy response. I can’t seem to shut up when it comes to pilots and their relationship.:)
Re: Part II
Date: 2010-04-29 09:07 pm (UTC)This. I think she had to heal first in order to have a committed relationship –even though I always thought that Kara accepting her feelings for Lee was part of her healing process. I think Kara might have been happy with Zak without Lee in the picture, but once she met him… I am not sure, I guess I dig the “met the wrong brother first” concept --and its inherent tragedy-- too much.
And you are not wordy at all. Love reading this kind of
essaysanswers!!! ;)Re: Part II
Date: 2010-04-30 12:53 pm (UTC)I have doubts about Kara's happiness with Zak. For one it's because I don't think Zak knew anything about her past, she prefered to keep that hidden. Second, I think insecurities about herself would eventually come out and tear a rift between her and Zak.
Oh ya, once she laid eyes on Lee, I like to think she almost started to believe that maybe just maybe there is someone who would love her for the good, the bad and the ugly.
Thanks! You know me, I can get a bit wordy when it comes to pilots!:)