Daily Pilots Post: Here Be the Angst...
Apr. 29th, 2010 03:45 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
cosetteferaud.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
no_takebacksA couple of weeks ago we had a wonderful discussion about pilots backstory. But me being me –an utterly fascinated by pre-mini pilots shipper--, I’d love to devote this post to the biggest McGuffin of the history of McGuffins…
I mean, what do we really know about Zak regarded as canon? He was Lee’s little brother and Kara’s fiancé. The two fell in love while they were at the Academy –Zak training to become a viper pilot and Kara working as a flight instructor. Kara passed him despite his lack of skills because she couldn’t crush his dreams and, in a heartbreaking twist of fate, Zak died in an accident while flying two years prior to the cylon attacks… Kara always blamed herself for his death. Lee always blamed his father. Apart from that information, though, Zak always was an obscure character and primarily a (very interesting) plot device to set up the Kara/Lee epic angst scenario. Sadly, I always felt that the show failed in dealing with the Zak issue and the consequences of the emotional betrayal that came along with Kara and Lee's feelings/attraction for each other...
…Which leads me to the discussion topic for today’s post: How did Zak as an entity shape Lee and Kara’s relationship? How did the canon-ish assessment that “Kara met the wrong brother first” affect their relationship?
And also, some lesser questions to debate…
(of course, answer the ones you feel like :))
(also, I have included my own perceptions here and there, hope you don’t mind... Feel free to disagree! :)).
How do you envision Lee and Zak’s relationship?
(They loved each other deeply, sure, but I always thought that their relationship was way more complicated underneath the surface, especially given the Adama family dynamics –absent father and alcoholic/abusive mother--, and the implication that Lee was mostly responsible for Zak and acted as a protective older brother). Maybe a love-resentment-admiration-jealousy combo actually makes sense.
How do you picture Kara and Zak’s relationship? Do you see any parallels between Sam and Zak?
(Personally, aside from the obvious plot device nature of both characters, I tend to see them as a very similar kind of partner to Kara. Both easy-going, nice and relatively healthy on a psychological level. I have always envisioned Kara as someone who needed to be in control of her romantic relationships and avoided close intimacy on an emotional level –due to her self-loathing, her emotional vulnerability and fear of rejection. We know that Kara was in a position of dominance --by rank, qualifications, experience, position, and age-- with Zak, and also with Sam had a dominant role in most of their interactions --Sam was generally deferrential to Kara's wishes and, in those rare occasions when he confronted her –demanding a more committed relationship, for example--, she closed him out and rejected him. Despite this dynamic I always felt that Kara was genuinely comfortable with both Zak and Sam (when Lee wasn’t in the bigger picture, at least). So I can certainly see some similarities between her death fiancé and his husband.
Also, I am not implying that this sort of somewhat too uneven relationships are necessarily dysfunctional, I guess the circumstances surrounding them play a big role. And the Kara we see in the flashbacks doesn't seem to have the extent of baggage that she does once we meet her in the mini and beyond –I truly think she was genuinely happy with Zak and, to a lesser extent, with Sam.
How do you perceive the depth of feelings between Kara and Lee while Zak was alive? Do you believe they were in love at that early stage of their relationhip?
What’s the story behind the Lee/Kara/Zak picture she kept in her locker? How do you interpret the fact that the pic is folded so Lee is hidden?
(Ooooh, I find it so telling! I always read it as a very graphic metaphor of Kara and Lee’s status quo when Zak was alive. When I first saw that particular moment, it suddenly hit me that Kara was possibly in love with Lee but couldn’t allow herself to acknowledge it. I mean, who folds pictures this way?).
Do you think Zak was aware of Lee and Kara's attraction/whatever you think they had?
Do you think Kara could have been truly happy with Zak once she met Lee?
(maybe the politically correct answer here is “yes”, but deep down I'm not so sure. I have always conceived Kara and Lee as true soulmates, kind of inevitable… And I have this theory that Lee –and Kara’s feelings for him-- was the validation of all those things Socrata said about her being a cancer and a curse. I mean, she finally finds in Zak a guy who loves her unconditionally and makes her happy, and then, bam! The big ephiphany; she meets his big brother and they have that immediate, bone-deep connection. And the attraction never fades, no matter how hard she tries to suppress or control it. How are you supposed to get over this? Of course she would have tried, but the possibility that the whole mess would have blown up in their faces was always there).
What would have happened with Kara and Lee if Zak hadn’t died?
And I know the post is sort of rambly, but please, discuss!!! :D
Also, for all the newbies, a must-read fanon bibliography ;)
“Angle of Descent” by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
daphnaea . “She thinks that if they were ever married, they’d have a throwing pots and pans, waking up the neighbors kind of life. Then a wave of guilt pulls her under. She expunges the word ‘married’ from her mental vocabulary.”
“All Feelings But This One” bystars_like_dust . Kara, Zak and Lee in 16,800 something words. One of my all time faves.
“Circumstance” byelly427 . Zak POV. The “Decline and Fall” remix. "It's fine, he wants to say, but it's not, it's so not. He loves her enough for it not to be fine anymore.
“Truth or Dare” bylotus79 . Zak dares his girlfriend to kiss his brother. Full on the lips, for at least sixty seconds.
“Drinking Games” byelly427 . The 'Never Have I Ever' ("Truth or Dare") remix. Later, years later, Zak can joke with Lee about being a girlfriend stealer, but there's a little bit of truth in every 'just kidding.'
“Simulations” bydaphnaea . "If there was one thing Kara Thrace was worse at than relationships, it was family, and she was already having enough trouble surviving the former without throwing the latter into the mix on top of it.
“Fearful Symmetry”byleda13 . Kara (gen, backstoryish). But Lee's worse, because he's like the tiny crystal viper; he lets you leave him. He lets you ignore him. He even lets you hurt him and then puts himself back together and waits. And that's so much worse, because one time he won't be able to, won't be able to put himself back together, and you'll have broken something else you should never even have had the arrogance to touch.
“You, and a Promise” byfoxrayne . ”Her voice was low and husky but somehow it had that edge that kept people listening, “I feel at peace on the beach. I feel at home when I’m with Zak,” she paused and looked at him, “and when I’m with you.”
“Aerilon Girls Are Easy” byflowrs4ophelia . Without a war to bring them back together, it takes a lot for Kara and Lee to be able to forgive each other. And themselves.
“Brotherly Advice” bytaragel . "Zak will always be his little brother and Lee’s job will always be to protect him."
“Forbidden Fruit” bylotus79 . The "Brotherly Advice" remix. Months later you’ll wonder if this is when your game of ‘make Lee want to frak you’ really started.
"Tomorrow’s Dust (Flares Into Breath)" byspamdilemma . "Lee loves first, and you follow."
“The Touch I Was Wanting From Her” byleiascully . "These Adamas, they spun her around. That’s a very interesting portrait of the Kara/Zak dynamic, making Zak kind of acceptant of Kara’s flirting -- and being that part of the reason why she stays with him. Also, one of the few fics I’ve read where Kara's love for Zak overshadows her attraction to Lee.
"Borrowed Time" byworkerbee73 . "There was nothing else to say, nothing to do. Nothing else for it. She had simply met the wrong brother first." WIP (soon to be finished --hopefully!).
ZAK!!
(and his circumstances)
I mean, what do we really know about Zak regarded as canon? He was Lee’s little brother and Kara’s fiancé. The two fell in love while they were at the Academy –Zak training to become a viper pilot and Kara working as a flight instructor. Kara passed him despite his lack of skills because she couldn’t crush his dreams and, in a heartbreaking twist of fate, Zak died in an accident while flying two years prior to the cylon attacks… Kara always blamed herself for his death. Lee always blamed his father. Apart from that information, though, Zak always was an obscure character and primarily a (very interesting) plot device to set up the Kara/Lee epic angst scenario. Sadly, I always felt that the show failed in dealing with the Zak issue and the consequences of the emotional betrayal that came along with Kara and Lee's feelings/attraction for each other...
…Which leads me to the discussion topic for today’s post: How did Zak as an entity shape Lee and Kara’s relationship? How did the canon-ish assessment that “Kara met the wrong brother first” affect their relationship?
And also, some lesser questions to debate…
(of course, answer the ones you feel like :))
(also, I have included my own perceptions here and there, hope you don’t mind... Feel free to disagree! :)).
How do you envision Lee and Zak’s relationship?
(They loved each other deeply, sure, but I always thought that their relationship was way more complicated underneath the surface, especially given the Adama family dynamics –absent father and alcoholic/abusive mother--, and the implication that Lee was mostly responsible for Zak and acted as a protective older brother). Maybe a love-resentment-admiration-jealousy combo actually makes sense.
How do you picture Kara and Zak’s relationship? Do you see any parallels between Sam and Zak?
(Personally, aside from the obvious plot device nature of both characters, I tend to see them as a very similar kind of partner to Kara. Both easy-going, nice and relatively healthy on a psychological level. I have always envisioned Kara as someone who needed to be in control of her romantic relationships and avoided close intimacy on an emotional level –due to her self-loathing, her emotional vulnerability and fear of rejection. We know that Kara was in a position of dominance --by rank, qualifications, experience, position, and age-- with Zak, and also with Sam had a dominant role in most of their interactions --Sam was generally deferrential to Kara's wishes and, in those rare occasions when he confronted her –demanding a more committed relationship, for example--, she closed him out and rejected him. Despite this dynamic I always felt that Kara was genuinely comfortable with both Zak and Sam (when Lee wasn’t in the bigger picture, at least). So I can certainly see some similarities between her death fiancé and his husband.
Also, I am not implying that this sort of somewhat too uneven relationships are necessarily dysfunctional, I guess the circumstances surrounding them play a big role. And the Kara we see in the flashbacks doesn't seem to have the extent of baggage that she does once we meet her in the mini and beyond –I truly think she was genuinely happy with Zak and, to a lesser extent, with Sam.
How do you perceive the depth of feelings between Kara and Lee while Zak was alive? Do you believe they were in love at that early stage of their relationhip?
What’s the story behind the Lee/Kara/Zak picture she kept in her locker? How do you interpret the fact that the pic is folded so Lee is hidden?
(Ooooh, I find it so telling! I always read it as a very graphic metaphor of Kara and Lee’s status quo when Zak was alive. When I first saw that particular moment, it suddenly hit me that Kara was possibly in love with Lee but couldn’t allow herself to acknowledge it. I mean, who folds pictures this way?).
Do you think Zak was aware of Lee and Kara's attraction/whatever you think they had?
Do you think Kara could have been truly happy with Zak once she met Lee?
(maybe the politically correct answer here is “yes”, but deep down I'm not so sure. I have always conceived Kara and Lee as true soulmates, kind of inevitable… And I have this theory that Lee –and Kara’s feelings for him-- was the validation of all those things Socrata said about her being a cancer and a curse. I mean, she finally finds in Zak a guy who loves her unconditionally and makes her happy, and then, bam! The big ephiphany; she meets his big brother and they have that immediate, bone-deep connection. And the attraction never fades, no matter how hard she tries to suppress or control it. How are you supposed to get over this? Of course she would have tried, but the possibility that the whole mess would have blown up in their faces was always there).
What would have happened with Kara and Lee if Zak hadn’t died?
And I know the post is sort of rambly, but please, discuss!!! :D
Also, for all the newbies, a must-read fanon bibliography ;)
“Angle of Descent” by
daphnaea . “She thinks that if they were ever married, they’d have a throwing pots and pans, waking up the neighbors kind of life. Then a wave of guilt pulls her under. She expunges the word ‘married’ from her mental vocabulary.”“All Feelings But This One” by
stars_like_dust . Kara, Zak and Lee in 16,800 something words. One of my all time faves.“Circumstance” by
elly427 . Zak POV. The “Decline and Fall” remix. "It's fine, he wants to say, but it's not, it's so not. He loves her enough for it not to be fine anymore.“Truth or Dare” by
lotus79 . Zak dares his girlfriend to kiss his brother. Full on the lips, for at least sixty seconds.“Drinking Games” by
elly427 . The 'Never Have I Ever' ("Truth or Dare") remix. Later, years later, Zak can joke with Lee about being a girlfriend stealer, but there's a little bit of truth in every 'just kidding.'“Simulations” by
daphnaea . "If there was one thing Kara Thrace was worse at than relationships, it was family, and she was already having enough trouble surviving the former without throwing the latter into the mix on top of it.“Fearful Symmetry”by
leda13 . Kara (gen, backstoryish). But Lee's worse, because he's like the tiny crystal viper; he lets you leave him. He lets you ignore him. He even lets you hurt him and then puts himself back together and waits. And that's so much worse, because one time he won't be able to, won't be able to put himself back together, and you'll have broken something else you should never even have had the arrogance to touch.“You, and a Promise” by
foxrayne . ”Her voice was low and husky but somehow it had that edge that kept people listening, “I feel at peace on the beach. I feel at home when I’m with Zak,” she paused and looked at him, “and when I’m with you.”“Aerilon Girls Are Easy” by
flowrs4ophelia . Without a war to bring them back together, it takes a lot for Kara and Lee to be able to forgive each other. And themselves.“Brotherly Advice” by
taragel . "Zak will always be his little brother and Lee’s job will always be to protect him."“Forbidden Fruit” by
lotus79 . The "Brotherly Advice" remix. Months later you’ll wonder if this is when your game of ‘make Lee want to frak you’ really started."Tomorrow’s Dust (Flares Into Breath)" by
spamdilemma . "Lee loves first, and you follow."“The Touch I Was Wanting From Her” by
leiascully . "These Adamas, they spun her around. That’s a very interesting portrait of the Kara/Zak dynamic, making Zak kind of acceptant of Kara’s flirting -- and being that part of the reason why she stays with him. Also, one of the few fics I’ve read where Kara's love for Zak overshadows her attraction to Lee."Borrowed Time" by
workerbee73 . "There was nothing else to say, nothing to do. Nothing else for it. She had simply met the wrong brother first." WIP (soon to be finished --hopefully!).
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Re: Part I
Date: 2010-04-29 08:49 pm (UTC)You know, canon-wise, I can’t honestly say if they got passed Zak or not, mainly because of the reason you have pointed out, the writers never gave us a closure on the matter –and when they handled it, they did it poorly, just slipping ambiguous hints here and there (I think the mention him in YCGHA andf he's never mentioned again until UB… And maybe Lee’s comment in “Scar” about the dead guys was pointing to Zak, but I am not sure). However, I can definitely see the Zak issue as a part of Kara’s –not so sure about Lee- motivations to not allow herself to embrace her feelings for Lee –especially in S1 and S2 (the other big reason being the depth of her feelings for him and how much they scared the hell out of her, of course).
I can see Zak resenting Lee for being the golden boy he was at the Academy, that’s a lot to live up to especially if your girl is the best pilot as well. Lee definitely resented Zak for getting special treatment and accepting it, always getting things handed to him and for meeting his right girl first. If nothing else, Lee had to resent Zak for meeting Kara because finally here was something that perfect for Lee and yet he couldn’t have it because again Zak got there first.
Yeah, that’s how I see it. Of course they loved each other very much, but I can’t totally buy the resentment/jealousy from both sides as a part of their relationship, given the circumstances of their family environment and all.
I think Zak and Sam were in love with Starbuck; I think they loved this idea of an invincible woman.
Mmm… That’s an interesting take.
I hate to say they it was attraction/love at first sight because it sounds so movie-ish.
Hee. For me it was “love at first sight”! (well, more insta-connection or immediate attraction). If there’s something that the “Daybreak” flashbacks accomplish is showing how incredibly strong the attraction was for both of them right from the start. I don’t believe they were in denial, though, I have the feeling they were aware of what they felt to some extent, but did a wonderful job keeping it buried deep within them.
Re: Part I
Date: 2010-04-30 12:48 pm (UTC)As far as Zak and Lee; I'm sure they had a great bond but there had to have been some jealousy between the two brothers.
Sam never really knew Kara because by the time he met her, she had already put those walls up. I still believe that he was in love the hot shot pilot who came and saved him. I don't say this because we see a different side of Kara with Lee but the side that she showed Lee, she never showed Sam. I think the same goes for Zak, he was infatuated with this cool flight instructor.
Oh, don't get me wrong, it was love at first sight. I just hate to say it because for some reason it doesn't do justice to Kara/Lee. It seems a bit cliche. I think when they first laid eyes on each other something clicked into place, like when you find that one person who you've been looking for all your life and just found, someone that just gets you. The thing was those two weren't even looking.
I don't know if denial is right word, I would say for like lack of acknowledgement. If the acknowledged it then it would be real and they couldn't let it be real.