DPP: Canon v. Fanon

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Canon \ˈka-nən\-- n.  The authentic works of a writer; a sanctioned or accepted group or body of related works.

Fanon \ˈfa-nən\-- n.  A term used in fanfiction to describe commonly accepted ideas among authors even if they are not actually expressed in the canon work.

So today I'm curious about fanon.  Is it supported by the source material?  How the hell did we come up with it?  Does it enrich our experience of the text and other stories?  Help or hindrance?

YOUR MISSION:
A.  Help me come up with a list of commonly accepted fanon ideas in the K/l-verse.  Here's a few to get us started:

1.  Kara and Lee are like the best pilots ever OMG.
2.  Lee and Zak's family had money.
3.  Zak was brilliant in another area other then vipers, such a raptor piloting or communications.
4.  Kara was a high-school pyramid champion.
5.  Starbuck and Apollo and famous throughout the Academy, and later after the show starts, throughout the Fleet.
6.  That there is such a thing as a D-CAG (deputy CAG).

I'm sure I've left out a bunch-- that's where I need your help.

B.  Discuss.  Are these ideas supported/not supported by canon?  How does it enrich the development of the characters as you see them?


Good luck.  : )

Comments

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

Neat topic, Bee!

Tara reminded me of this this morning:

7. Lee was the protective big brother who practically raised Zak.


I'd definitely say that #2 was backed up in canon. There's that one ep in S3 in which Adama has flashbacks or whatever to his old house, and it's pretty nice. And Lee makes that comment in SoO about Zarek's head being as big as the house he grew up in.

[(Anonymous)]

I think that one might have originitated from that article Jamie wrote on Lee Adama for syfy.com a while ago, in which he specifically stated this. So it was probably implied on the show and in the way Jamie potrayed Lee, even though it was never actually said out loud.

In A Day in the Life, for example, Adama says something like "You were supposed to protect them" to his dead wife. That implies to me that Adama really wasn't around that much and coupled with Carolanne possibly being an alcoholic, it definately lends credence to the theory, that Lee had to look after Zak a lot.

So what I'm trying to say is, that to me that's more than a fandom invention.

tHE MONEY THING...

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Yeah, they had a nice house, but I'm not sure it necessarily implies wealth. But I think for whatever reason it's a commonly accepted fact that Caroline/Carolanne came from a family with money. Never figured out how that got started though.

You'd also think Bill would have inherited quite a bit from his father-- but I dunno.

[baciami2.livejournal.com]

There's also Tigh's flashbacks, after Bill is shot, where Carolanne's father gets Bill back into the fleet and off that space trawler (or whatever it was). I had assumed that her father had clout and/or money, which Carolanne would have inherited.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Huh, I don't really think of a lot of your examples as Fanon things. Most are supported by some fact like Adama saying Kara's the best pilot he's ever seen, better than him, better than Tigh, etc. And Kara being a high-school pyramid champion tends to make sense based on her history because she's young and she talks about wanting to go pro in pyramid and that was likely before she went to Academy. And then other stuff...like DCAG is a real-life position.

The things I tend to think of as Fanon are complete fabrications, stuff like:
1) There is a pool based on K/L having sex.
2) Kara is the best triad player ever (I don't think the show ever really makes that point, though it does show her being a rather crowing victor on at least two occasions I can think of.)
3) Dreilide is Daniel/Kara is a cylon or half-cylon.
4) Kara and Lee fly like two halves of the same whole and/or are wingmen for each other (there is no indication that they ever flew together before the show or even that they have any particular affinity for flying "together")
5) Lee was his brother's caretaker (A Day in the Life doesn't cover this does it?)
6) Lee knew Kara and Zak were engaged (unclear from the show; Bill indicated it was a secret)

There are many more I can't think of right now. I bet most came from fic writers wanting to pay a little homage to other fic writers' ideas.

[owldark.livejournal.com]

I always, always forget that 1) is not actually canon.

3) makes utter, perfect sense.

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

Great list, Tara! And I agree, I think that's exactly how a lot of these things came about--you can tell the early writers on LJ had a lot of fun playing off of each other's stuff. It's cool.

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

Lee knew Kara and Zak were engaged (unclear from the show; Bill indicated it was a secret)

Huh. How have I never considered that?! Though honestly, just because BILL thought he was the first/only one to know this doesn't mean it was necessarily true. The man lived in his own little dream world, and I find it very hard to believe that Zak would have written to Adama but not to Lee about it.

[coffeesuperhero.livejournal.com]

#3 YES AND WTF RON, WTF.

#KEYMASH

(Sorry. That one is just a knee-jerker for the RDM-hate for me. Siiiiiiiiiiighhhhh. Why, show, why????)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm...interesting question.

Fanon/Canon: Lee and Kara fell in love at first sight.
Fanon: Lee and Kara knew each other at the academy. (I don't know of any canon-related confirmation of this.)
Fanon: Kara met Carolanne Adama (this is fanon in my mind, but I'm not sure it's fandom-wide.)
Fanon: Kara and Lee frak off screen ALL THE TIME. ;)

ETA: Kara and Helo were frak buddies at the academy. (Heh. Not exactly K/L, but close.)

[owldark.livejournal.com]

While I'm not well-versed in fanon, given I have mostly been lurky in BSG fandom, I heartily support your last point. Whenever I watch the show, and they're offscreen, it's clearly because they're frakking. ;)

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

Kara's thumb ring was her engagement ring from Zak.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

That is an interesting one, because even though it's fanon, if I remember well Zak wore Kara's thumb ring --or a very similar one-- during the flashbacks.

[coffeesuperhero.livejournal.com]

I like Jamie's personal fanon thing about Lee being most at home in the kitchen, but that might just be because the thought of Lee with a Crème brûlée torch makes me tingly. ;)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Wha....?

Sorry, distracted by icon love. *licks screen*

Yes, Lee as a great cook is great fanon. Also fanon, the idea that Kara is not good in the kitchen (although she was prepping dinner for the Adama boys.) Heh.

[delle.livejournal.com]

I'm fairly sure that A Day in the Life says, or at least strongly implied, that Lee was mostly responsible for Zak, given his mother's alcoholism. (It also strongly implies she beat Lee on a regular basis)

Where one draws the line between canon and fanon makes a difference too. Ron Moore says in the podcasts/DVD extras that the show's backstory for Kara says she was a high-level Triad player with professional possibilities until she blew out her knee and ended up going to the Academy instead. In general, I tend to not give deleted scenes/actor interviews/producer interviews "canon" status - my personal line has always been 'if it's not on the screen, it's not canon'. BSG has been more of an exception for me, I *do* take into account what the actors, producers or writers say and I *do* consider the deleted scenes (if they please me *g*)

High school, really?

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

They really kind of screwed the pooch on backstories. By casting Katee who was only 22 and couldn't really pass for much older, it doesn't really make sense that she could have been a Triad player being scouted for the pros (ostensibly in college), gone to the academy and become such an ace flyer so quickly that she became an instructor to Zak who was only probably a few years her junior?

I know they originally wanted a 35-year-old or thereabouts to play Starbuck (and Apollo was supposed to be around that age too) and I'm so glad they cast Katee and Jamie, but they should have tweaked their backstories a bit. Lee attending war college which is generally for much more senior military members also doesn't make a lot of sense, especially when you combine it with the fact that he was reserves and not a careerist according to Final Cut.

[innibis.livejournal.com]

1 - I think 'the best pilots ever' is something we are supposed to believe canon-wise, even though it's a patently ridiculous statement because once you get to a certain level these things are pretty darn subjective. To paraphrase Hugh Grant in Two Weeks Notice "Well that's just silly. Have you seen every pilot in the worlds?"

5 - If they're following US military, which they loosely seem to do, you don't learn how to fly at the Academy so why would they be more famous then everyone else? And the thought that a couple of junior officers are famous throughout the fleet is really laughable. (Although the brass might know Lee as Adama's boy who wasn't killed - but only in relation to his father.)

* That Kara loves flying MORE THAN ANYTHING! It's like peace and home and kittens to her.

* That the laws of physics do not apply.

*That Lee is a rule bound straight arrow - this is the weirdest of the tropes to me and completely contradicted in canon.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

That Lee is a rule bound straight arrow - this is the weirdest of the tropes to me and completely contradicted in canon.

Yes, I never understood this one! Lee is as badass and rule breaker as Kara, there's plenty of evidence of that.

[nazkey.livejournal.com]

* That Kara has more notches on her bedpost than Tiger Woods (*smirk*)

There's nothing in canon that supports Kara sleeping around like a sex crazed banshee, other than the comment about the major made by Lee during his jealous rant after Baltar.

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Although I did see a con vid of Katee laughing about how many of the actors on the show she'd made out with on camera (and she wished Tahmoh had been one of them). :)

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

Great topic, Bee!

I think many of the ones I was think about have been mentioned, the only other that comes to mind is:

Lee and Kara hung out alot (bars and such) after they met through Zak; like when Zak was away on some training or in classes.

As far as I know this was never confirmed on canon.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

That's a good one. I don't think we've got any evidence that ever happened-- other than the pic with all three of them. SO they must have hung out socially at least once after the DB flashback.

[amidala-thrace.livejournal.com]

I don't know if this would qualify as "fanon", per se, but I personally have always rejected the idea espoused by RDM of Kara as somebody who habitually cheated on her partners. I know it's kinda-sorta backed up by Sam's line to Lee about "You think you're the first?" but it's something that I've never been able to accept. It just does not fit with my perception of Kara (my "fanon", I suppose!), which is that once she made her choice, however misguided or wrong that choice might have been, she nonetheless stuck with it. To me this is backed up by her refusal to divorce Sam in the latter half of S3 - in her mind she had made a commitment, and she was not prepared to back off from that no matter what feelings of dissatisfaction she may have had with her marriage.

I won't even mention the "Daybreak" table scene. I believed at the time, and still believe now, that this was a blatant attempt by RDM to beat people like me over the head with supposed "proof" of how much of a slut she could be - "SHE SCREWS AROUND WITH HER BOYFRIEND'S OLDER BROTHER BEHIND HER BOYFRIEND'S BACK! DO YOU GET THE POINT? DO YOU? HUH? DO YOU?" - which I did not so much appreciate. But, I could rant about that particular point forever, so I'll shut up now in the interests of not derailing this post. ;)

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Sam's "You think you're the first?" line caught me a little off guard at the time, my version of Kara being way more loyal than that. But then in EoJ, she's talking about bending the rules of marriage while making out with Lee, soooo...

I don't know. One the one hand, I see Kara as someone who takes what she wants and considers sex a no-strings bit of fun. On the other, I see her as someone who is fiercely loyal at times, and who would stay married to Sam to honor her word before the Gods, but making out with someone else is OK. Complex, that girl.

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Canon is (I think) unclear, but I'm throwing it out here to see what the general consensus is:

Did Lee actually ever have sex with Kara after they were married to Sam and Dee, or did he and Kara only ever makeout? His agonized "guilt reflected" line in EoJ can be read two ways, in my mind. And he tells Kara she's breaking her vow everytime they "do this", which, again, vague since they are making out (although they may have been planning to do more than makeout before he squicked and stopped them).

My personal fanon here is that Lee wouldn't have slept with Kara while they were married to Sam/Dee, and that he was traumatized enough by the sneaky, handsy makeout sessions, but the argument can be made for more than that to have happened (and I'm sure forests have given their lives to the fanfic of stolen moments post marriages). Kara's breezy "bending the rules" line and treatment of Sam throughout the estrangement (ie. sleeps with him and tells him to leave), makes me wonder how far she cheated (with Lee or anyone else), but I so want to believe that Lee wouldn't have gone all the way while he was married.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

I dunno. Part of me wants to think that they totally slept together (I want hate!sex to be CANON, DAMMIT!) But you could argue it either way.

I think they did.

[cynicalshadows.livejournal.com]

A couple that haven't been brought up:

1. Betting with socks in triad. No idea where that came from, but I've seen it in too many fics to count.

2. Kara calling Lee "flyboy." See it all the time in fic, and have used it myself, but it doesn't really any sense to me seeing as there is actually a pilot with the callsign Flyboy!

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I think the flyboy thing comes from the movie Top Gun. Ha ha.

[daybreak777.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I hope these haven't been mentioned.

- Is it actual canon that Kara and Lee were actually at the Academy together? (Oh, wait Daybreak disproves that. I keep forgetting that episode, I swear.)

- Is Kara actually a better pilot than Lee? I assumed she is but really, he's pretty good. Discuss. :-D

- Is Kara actually called 'Buck' in canon? Maybe once?

- Oh, and this is not K/L but I'm not sure if Helo and Kara were at the Academy, either. But I love fic where they are. :-)

I'll comment again if I can think of more!

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

- Is Kara actually a better pilot than Lee? I assumed she is but really, he's pretty good. Discuss. :-D

Erm. See Innibis's comment about subjectivity. I think it's like any art. There's your average 5 year old, who can scribble drawings that are cute and recognizable, but that's it. There's me, who can make a respectable representation of something. Then there's the likes of Van Gogh and Monet. Somewhere leading up to Scar, Kara has the nuggets in the gyro thingy, and says the record for the most shots hit after was held by her. So I'm guessing she really is objectively the best shot, when she's on her game, but as for who's the best pilot? I suspect they're pretty equivalent.

- Is Kara actually called 'Buck' in canon? Maybe once?
I want to say yes, and that it was Helo and sometime while they were on Caprica that first time Kara went back, but... now you have me questioning that.

- Oh, and this is not K/L but I'm not sure if Helo and Kara were at the Academy, either. But I love fic where they are. :-)

Another back story weirdness. Kara says something when he's telling her how he fell for Not!Boomer about how they "go way back," which is kind of impossible without academy or something like that in their shared past, given their ages. But that's the closest canon ever comes to anything. We know they have a history, but the specifics are non-existent. I've also read fic (maybe Tara's?) that had Helo as her step-brother, 'cause she was in and out of the foster system? Or am I imagining that?

[baciami2.livejournal.com]

I wrote this else where, but as I'm in LA this thread is already over 120 comments when I got on today.

Earlier we're talking about Lee: Master Chef or Bar Owner/Tender. Coffeesuperhero wrote about Lee with a creme brulee blowtorch!

Shippers....creme brulee??? Of course, it's....

creme bruLEE!

the fav dessert of shipper nation! Quik - we need comment!fic on nekkid Lee making creme brulee for Kara on present day earth in an apron she got for him that sez "Caution: HOT" just like Mr Bee's

XD XD XD

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

It's a damn fine apron. *g*

I second such a request for commentfic.

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

The timeline between Lee/Gianne.

In many fanons, Lee dumps Gianne after meeting Kara because he knows that now no one will compare. Then there are others where she becomes his rebound girl to forget about Kara. I can't any of them being possible because even in canon we never really know when Lee's dumped Gianne, was it right after Zak's death, closer to the end of the worlds. I also don't see Lee as one woman man before the show, may be he became that after but he was young, who is to say he was in a committed relationship with Gianne.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I tend to believe the whole thing wit Gianne happened shorlty before the mini because, no matter how many daddy issues Lee might have had ( and he sure had them ), I can't see him simply dumping a pregnant girlfriend like that. I can picture him not wanting to be a father, even suggesting that she get an abortion, but leaving her ,abandoning his child and just moving on with his life... In my mind he values duty and responsibility too much for that to happen. Maybe he wouldn't have continued with the relationship but he wouldn't avoid responsibility if she actually had the baby. So, I believe it must have happened right before the attacks and that he would have looked for her and reached some kind of an agreement about they would do about the child.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Something that I have come across in many fics and that really bugs me is the idea that Kara has a reputation for sleeping around. I just don't see it in canon. Don't understand why this has become such a dominant topic.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I agree. Nazkey brought that up upthread. It's just RDM clinging to the Madonna/whore dichotomy and refusing to recognize an in-between.

**boos RDM and his genderfail**

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I think Kara habitually sleeping around might be canon, given Hotdog's comment in "The Oath": "You've frakked half the fleet, and what have you got to show for it?" Of course you could interpret that as rumor, and you could interpret Sam as being deliberately misleading or just wrong, and you could interpret Lee's "this is just like old times, Kara" as jealousy-induced exaggeration. But taken together, she does seem to create the same impression among a group of guys who live in the same confined quarters with her. So I dunno ~ I think it has a fair amount of canon support, though you could interpret your way out of it if you want to.

On the other hand, I think the canon/fanon that Kara is afraid that her touch = the angel of death to anyone she cares about is a bit odd in hindsight, given that it's Lee who has outlived every single woman he ever touched. Gianne, Kara, Dee, hooker. All six feet under by the end, two murders and two suicides. Lee = harbinger of death, romantically. But what a way to go...

I'm surprised he's not more psychologically skittish on the issue, actually.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"it's Lee who has outlived every single woman he ever touched. Gianne, Kara, Dee, hooker"

LOL - Never looked at it that way. Poor Lee! (I don't think the hooker died, though).

"I think it has a fair amount of canon support"
You have a point there, considering the quotes you mentioned. But it still feels a little off to me since the only people we actually see her involved with were Zac (steady relationship), Baltar (one night stand), Sam (steady relationship) and Lee (soulmate?).

[amaliak.livejournal.com]

OMG bee thx for doing this! You know I was actually going to start a comm for this (it was an idea that leiascully and I played with for a while)!

I have comments to make but I'm on the can my phone and can't type right.

Hee.
cheers.
--Lex

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Hey girl!!! Looking forward to hearing your thoughts! : D