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no_takebacks
Today's DPP is something that I'd be willing to bet all of us have thought about at some point or other: the fact that Bill Adama sees both Lee and Kara as his children. He can also clearly be a (inadvertent) source of friction between the two of them, given that in their very first scene together in the miniseries, he was the first thing they argued about - but what impact does he have on the way Lee and Kara relate to each other?
In canon, PapAdama seems to be completely unaware of the fact that Lee and Kara have a connection that's more than just platonic or familial, especially since they often act like siblings when they're around him. (see below: it's rather telling that Kara is the one who knows the story and not Lee).
On the other hand, pilots in canon seem to see their relationship with each other - and especially the romantic part of it - as completely separate from their relationship with Bill. (sample: in UB and also afterward, neither of them brings up his reaction as a possible obstacle to them getting together). So how do you see them, shippers?
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Date: 2011-11-25 09:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-25 09:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-26 05:02 am (UTC)Anyway, the Adamas+Kara+Roslin is one of my favorite parts of this show. I could spew meta about them for days.
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Date: 2011-11-26 04:10 pm (UTC)And I would LOVE to read meta about my favourite dysfunctional space family (tied with the crew of Serenity for that spot). They can be so amazing together.
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Date: 2011-11-26 04:25 pm (UTC)I adore the concept of "nakama" or having a found "One True Family." Even though there are some blood relations in this one, the fact that the two actually related people are the most dysfunctional part of the family makes it all the more interesting.
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Date: 2011-11-26 04:34 pm (UTC)"One True Family." ....[]......., the fact that the two actually related people are the most dysfunctional part of the family makes it all the more interesting.
Oh YES, me too. Though arguably everyone in the BSG fam is dysfunctional on some level, Lee and PapAdama have just been that way for the longest time.
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Date: 2011-11-26 04:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-26 05:21 pm (UTC)Laura... has been a politician for years and knows how to read people, so I am not at all surprised that she sussed them out, especially since she doesn't know their history before getting the cliffnotes version from Tigh :)
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Date: 2011-11-27 03:39 pm (UTC)he lost a daughter, and Lee is suggesting that Adama doesn't feel a strong pain!!! what is worst: to lose a daughter or the love of your life? I think are both unbearable.
and Adama never said "mine is worst", but only, and he is damn right, "don't you dare to think that your is worst".
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Date: 2011-11-27 03:44 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-25 11:14 pm (UTC)I really love any and all "family" scenes with the Adamas and Kara. I wish there'd been more. There's also the one where Kara and Lee are both transferred to the Pegasus. The kids are complaining to Dad.
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Date: 2011-11-26 01:53 pm (UTC)As for Zak, I think he was the single biggest obstacle even after his death, partly because in my head they can't really keep their guilt over him separate from their feelings towards each other, and also because that guilt feeds into their millions and millions of other issues (their frakked-up childhoods and the results thereof, abandonment issues, you name it).
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Date: 2011-11-25 11:54 pm (UTC)My favorite scene is the one that includes mom too:
(I never noticed that Kara seems to have her hand on Lee's back in this shot.)
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Date: 2011-11-26 02:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-26 02:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-26 02:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-26 02:01 pm (UTC)I can see how they kept the quasi-siblings trope going for S1 and S2, because it sort of fits where they were. But given that S3 starts with the total destruction of their relationship and then a headfirst plunge into the affair/breaking it off/consciously trying to be friends again, I can see how pilots as siblings fell by the wayside a little.
agreed!
Date: 2011-11-26 02:30 pm (UTC)They were all clearly really crying, too; the BSG family was ending. (Katee looks so *beautiful* even when she's teary-eyed.)
Agree with what you said about S1 & S2 as a contrast to S3. Kara & Lee really shifted from sibs to everything else they'd tried to deny.
Re: agreed!
Date: 2011-11-26 03:53 pm (UTC)Re: agreed!
Date: 2011-11-26 04:58 pm (UTC)Oh, yes, I cried a lot at this scene. They communicated so much without words.
Re: agreed!
Date: 2011-11-26 05:14 pm (UTC)The moment of the poof itself between Lee and Kara I can deal with, but the fact that this was Kara's ultimate fate will never, ever sit well with me.
****RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE****
(see what I meant?)
Re: agreed!
Date: 2011-11-26 05:30 pm (UTC)Re: agreed!
Date: 2011-11-26 05:51 pm (UTC)Re: agreed!
Date: 2011-11-27 03:32 am (UTC)This is so perfectly put. I hate the poof but mostly for what it says for the futility of Kara as a person, as someone real with free will instead of just a destiny. (I have a whole rant about how destiny shouldn't necessarily mean misery.)
Re: agreed!
Date: 2011-11-26 03:55 pm (UTC)Re: agreed!
Date: 2011-11-26 04:58 pm (UTC)Re: agreed!
Date: 2011-11-26 05:06 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-11-26 03:57 pm (UTC)But even after watching UBEX for the first time last weekend, and paying closer attention to Bill telling Lee about Kara's wedding, and keeping in mind how blind you all say he is, I still didn't see it. From the first time to the most recent time I saw that scene, I have always assumed that Bill is gauging Lee's reaction, even choosing to tell him personally so he doesn't find out from another source...not that he knew about the night Lee & Kara had, but because he knew Lee would be upset. I think he wants to see Lee's reaction, professionally in order to see if Lee's really pro enough to handle command, and personally because he wants to make sure Lee's gonna let her go without a fight and without making a scene (both because of regulations and because he does indeed care about his son saving face)
I believe Papa wishes his two most favorite kids could be together, but this is so not the time (and it never will be because it's war and then End of the Worlds) so they need to pull it together and do the sensible thing, you two are officers of the Colonial Fleet for Gods' sake!!
Like he would never, ever, encourage Lee to declare himself (until laaate, maybe, when he finally says "Frak professionalism, you only live once" in his own love life). And, like any man, would rather die than get involved in the woman's half of the love life. So from any angle, he's the last to interfere.
I think he has one hell of a poker face, especially where his oldest son is concerned. It's so good, Lee has no idea how the Old Man feels about him until the End of the Worlds. He just pushes, and inspires and pushes more and it's all out of love, of course, but Lee doesn't see it 'cause we're all just kids where our parents are concerned.
I know there's more, but I really, honestly think Papa knows that they feel Very Strong Things about each other, and may even suspect that they've been Up to No Good at least once or twice but his commitment to duty prevents him from openly acknowledging any of that. I think duty-wise, he even feels badly for having his son under his command, because it so jeopardizes the rest of the fleet to have the Commander biased toward one officer (he's more practiced with separating Kara). I guess it all plays out the same...he can't help in any way, but I think he'd do more harm than good anyway ;)
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Date: 2011-11-26 04:19 pm (UTC)He probably knows they are friends, and that they've been close because of Zak - but as for their relationship independent of it, and the massive tangle of complicated feelings that pilots bring along as baggage, I don't think he is that good at sussing that out. He loves Lee, but I could say he doesn't really know him very well - in a lot of ways their relationship only began after the war. I do agree that if he did know, he'd be the last to interfere, but I never, ever got so much as a hint that he sensed something was up between them.
I can buy it that Laura knew easier than I can buy his knowing about it - even the way he broke the news of Kara's marriage in UB, it isn't the way I've ever known anyone to break bad news to someone they knew might be upset by it. And as far as Bill knew, it wasn't bad news to Lee.
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Date: 2011-11-26 04:31 pm (UTC)I see him as borderline omniscient :D But srsly, I do think that in order to lead well, he needs to be able to read people very well and with all the eyefrakking, etc, that Pilots do, someone as good at reading people as he would need to be could not have missed it. Yes, he'd miss the details and no he wouldn't swear to it, but he'd have strong suspicions about their feelings. Or fears about them, more like. Like he knows the two of them enough to know they're great together (chemistry-wise).
I think I assume a lot about Papa that may not be supported in canon...but I had to pick it up somewhere...I didn't come to BSG an EJO fangirl so I wasn't biased to begin...
And the way he broke the news I just assumed was ultra-casual to cover for how not casual the moment really was. It was an subliminal cue to Lee to Hold It Together, son, this is not Your Beeswax.
Papa sees all. :P
ETA:typo fixes and a bit of clarification...not enough, though, I'm afraid :)
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Date: 2011-11-26 04:45 pm (UTC)See that's just the thing, I never see them do it around him! With PapAdama, they basically turn into children when they're not in soldier!mode, so it'd be that much easier for him to block out anything he didn't want to process. I mean, even when they basically try to kill each other in the boxing ring and end up hugging like children in front of an audience that includes their spouses...nothing from Daddy.
I love him as a character too, so I really don't think I'm biased either - though maybe I am, since I really wanted him to notice what was up between pilots/acknowledge it in some small way, at least to himself or in the wake of Kara's death.
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Date: 2011-11-26 07:06 pm (UTC)Word. But I reserve the right to believe we just didn't see that part :P
Yeah, I think I can concede that I have a tendency to see what I wanna see (maybe that's why I like Papa so much *snicker*)...
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Date: 2011-11-26 09:37 pm (UTC)I wish we had :( Though I do still not believe in this the way I do in Lee and Kara going much further than just Raptor outmaking during the affair :)
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Date: 2011-12-23 03:25 am (UTC)And he was a huge authority to both of them
If they brought revealed their feeleings and doubts to him, he a) would be happy if his "children" end up together, he could talk them out of a lot of stuped things, like marrying wrong people for wrong reasons. The fact that they both kept silent and never confided Bill with what they ae for each other, one of their greatest mistakes and the cause of of their many misfortunes.