DPP: Fading into the Background

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Morning everyone! So a quick update, thanks for signing up for those DPP slots, there is just one left open between now and 2012 if anyone wants to do the honors!

Also, don't miss the four brand new ficlets from yesterday's touch meme!  Tomorrow, we explore....SMOOCHAGE!

But today, a question about a fandom practice that I've noticed... 



It seems to me that when I see big epic fics posted by other shippers, there are often secondary background romances in them...but seldom are they Kara/Lee. Why do you think this is? Are they just too attention-getting? Too complicated? Do they not work in the background? Is it a fandom fatigue thing--where the writer feels like they already have a lot of fic based around them and chooses to focus on other couples (and yes, I've seen that as a reason to not like Kara/Lee)? Are they just the kind of characters/ship that you either love or hate? (There's a lot of hate in the latter seasons once the Quad starts up.) Inquiring minds would like to know!

Prompt: Recommend some fics that feature Kara/Lee as a secondary ship, and if you write, perhaps try your stab at writting a ficlet that features them as background ship to the main action.

Comments

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I will kick things off with a rec of the positively gorgeous Adama/Roslin modern AU by miabicicletta, The Book of Pythia (http://miabicicletta.livejournal.com/82573.html) (link is to the final chapter). Kara and Lee (and the slightly-less tortured than canon triad that they make with Zak) are a major subplot as part of Bill's family. It's a real kick to see them through Laura's eyes as she meets each one of them and pieces together the connections between them. Overall, Miabicicletta has a stunning way with language and the fic has a beautifully soothing ethereal quality to the storytelling. Well worth checking out!

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I've seen Kara/Lee written as a secondary ship in some Bill/Saul fics. Recently, plaid_slytherin's Homecoming (http://plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com/160627.html), which features some delightfully uncomfortable Lee trying to cope with the fact that Saul is his new step-dad. LOL. And there's some K/L bar sex and an awkward discovery... A fun little fic!

I'm not exactly sure why K/L don't appear in the background of many fics, although I think you already listed all of the reasons I might consider as possible.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I know that the second part of mserrada's Wounded Wing (http://mserrada.livejournal.com/2010/10/11/) is Kara / Lee focused, but I actually read the first part as FAR more Kara / Sam and then (once she's abducted) as Kara gen. The Kara / Lee relationship is certainly in Kara's mind (primarily associated with guilt) but it's not the primary focus of that fic. Their potential relationship and the fallout from their night on New Caprica move into a secondary role. I haven't read the sequel (the second half of that fic which mserrada is currently writing), but I understand that Kara / Lee become much more important during Part 2.

*Note: Please read the author's warnings, much of it takes place during Kara's incarceration on New Caprica and the fic contains triggering materials.

Here's the non-embedded link in case the other doesn't work:
http://mserrada.livejournal.com/2010/10/11/

Theories and whatnot.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Really interesting question. Since I don't stray from the K/L sandbox too often, I don't have any recs, but I do have some theories about why we see dimisnihed K/L in other works and perhaps in fandom over all as the series progressed. (SHE HAS THEORIES!!!)

Goes back to something that keeps coming up at the BBC-- K/L were telegraphed (loudly) from day one that they were the prime-time will-they-or-won't-they OTP. They were the Ross and Rachel, the Sam and Diane, the ... what's their names that Cybill Shepard and Bruce Willis played in Moonlighting. They were (intentionally or by accident) the young, pretty main-character couple that spend the entire series trying to get together.

The problem was the genre. Not sci-fi, but the focus on realism/naturalism and the ensemble nature of the show. From the get-go, it was apparent that philsophical and political issues were the primary focus. And that does't mesh well with the traditional sitcom/drama OTP. This isn't to say that it can't be done; it's just these people never figured out how to strike a balance. You also have a "too many characters to keep up with" problem that rears its ugly head in S3 and never goes away. (It's why 4.5 is such a storytelling trainwreck-- too many balls in the air.)

... and so I fear what resulted was a writers' room v. network marketing fight. And it's also why we get such lovely shippy stills every season. Let's face it-- cute, hot, young people sell shows. But the idea of those pretty sexy hot young thngs and will-they-won't-they that is such a staple of television never got reconciled with the show's larger arcs. I see it as a gimme to the network and as a hook for the audience-- similiar to the much-maligned attempt at stand-alone eps in the back half of S3, just on a more massive (and subtle) scale.

And so, over time, due to lack of coherent direction on this point, the prime-time OTP storyline began to splinter. There are lots of arguments to be made on when it happened (you most often hear S3, or 2.5 or even the arrival of Sam, but I'd stake my money on the end of S1, actually. I'll unveil that grand theory when the BBC gets to KLG1 in a couple of weeks.)

And as the prime-time young/hot/sexy OTP faltered, other ships were there to step in and become a bigger part of the storyline, most notably A/R. I think that's why we see such a swell of fic and ferver in that area from S3 on. It took the torch from K/L storywise, so to speak.

As for why other ship fics never feature K/L my guess is they (i) figured they were a big enough deal already and didn't need extra love, (ii) got exasperated with later K/L arcs and behavior and didn't want to spend any time on them, or (iii) the latter fics especially became a reflection of splintered OTP storytelling and honestly didn't know what direction to take it in.

But hey, that's just my pea brain. ; )

Re: Theories and whatnot.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I love these theories! I'll definitely try to pop by and check out your commentary when you get to KLG1. I'd be interested in how you see that!

As for why other ship fics never feature K/L my guess is they (i) figured they were a big enough deal already and didn't need extra love, (ii) got exasperated with later K/L arcs and behavior and didn't want to spend any time on them, or (iii) the latter fics especially became a reflection of splintered OTP storytelling and honestly didn't know what direction to take it in.

As an addition to these (which you need not agree with) I also wonder if part of the reason this happens is that there were some pretty nasty 'ship wars' going on during fandom's heyday. (I've heard stories. Honestly - it's nuts!) In any case, I came into this post-finale so I (luckily) avoided them entirely, but it's interesting that when I'm trying to befriend people of different ships - especially those who've been around FOREVER - there's a strong sense of 'who is this girl and what the hell is her angle?!?' because for YEARS there was little crossover between them and the hard feelings remain.

I do, however, see that as changing. BSG Epics has been a great start, and from what I've seen of fandom in general, the people who are still here love the show no matter what and tend to be mature enough to recognize that one taste doesn't suit all. Perhaps (if fandom continues) we'll eventually see a resurgence of Kara / Lee in other people's writing. K :)

Re: Theories and whatnot.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

I also wonder if part of the reason this happens is that there were some pretty nasty 'ship wars' going on during fandom's heyday.

**shifty eyes**

I know not of what you speak. *g*

Seriously though, while it got a little heated at times back in the day, I only ever remember that being in the K/L v. K/S realm. And even then it was simply two different viewpoints on how the storyline should turn out and who was the actual OTP and whatnot. But that seems pretty normal when you're in the thick of it and character fates (and ships) are still uncertain.

I will say there wasn't so much a sense of cameraderie and a "we're all in this together" feeling as there is now. And that's nice to see. And I'm glad peeps are making friends and collaborating and whatnot. But I will say---and this might be the simplest and most straightforward answer to T's question---

Other ships don't interest me. There's nothing wrong with them and I'm all for everyone being free to love what they love, but it's not my cuppa. And so for the limited amount of time I have to devote to fandom acticities, I'm going to focus on what I like. And I'd wager that that is precisely why we don't see more K/L in other shippy fic. Because it's other shippy fic. There's no value judgment to it, it just it what it is.

Re: Theories and whatnot.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I say this all the time but I so wish I could've watched more seasons of the show that BSG was in S1 and parts of S2.

I do wonder if they ever had a grand plan for Kara/Lee but...honestly I kind of doubt it. Right from the beginning they had no sense of how to build this as a ship--they were going to open ACT OF CONTRITION! episode 4! with them having just had sexytimes and regretting it. Squandering that much UST so early would have been so unbelievably criminal that it just shouts to me that they had no idea what they were doing there, and the mostly terrific build/evolution of their relationship (with a terrible series of missteps in S3) was totally a happy accident.

Re: Theories and whatnot.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

the show that BSG was in S1 and parts of S2.


In some ways it was SO much more traditional TV drama. With humor and cute moments and shippy stuff as well as the dark and twisty. It's when the philosophical took over that it became kind of a one-note deal. (And Lord knows I'm all for the philosophical, but I also happen to believe that it can live in harmony with all of those other elements.)

I was going to mention that! Sexytime!FAIL!!!! I think the fact they considered it tells us all we need to know:

NO

FUCKING

CLUE

.


None at all. What's more and more amazing to me these days is how we got such a remarkable ship and such fantastic pilot moments out of what appeared to be a story arc conceived in the midst of chaos theory.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Forgot to add this to the original post, but wanted to say that I especially seldom see fics that are not Adama/Roslin (or of course some variant of the quad) that feature Kara/Lee as a secondary ship. It could be because they don't really easily fit into the storylines of anyone else, but I think it would be interesting if there were say, a Helo/Sharon fic with secondary Kara/Lee, or Kat/Hot Dog (heh) or Cheif/Cally. And further flung...Ellen/Saul or Caprica/Baltar (set during S1, when Kara-Baltar sexing happens) or whatever.

Ooh writing that made me think of a rec though! Our own kag523's The Tighs that Bind (http://kag523.livejournal.com/198329.html) (link is to the final chapter) features Caprica/Sam as the primary ship with Kara/Lee as the background (Kara and Caprica are both daughters of Ellen/Saul--so that ship is involved too of course!)

[kag523.livejournal.com]

*hugs* THANK YOU! :D X 1000

[sugarhaven.livejournal.com]

I don't really read very many non-pilot fics, so I don't have much to add to the discussion, but I was wondering, how often do we actually see secondary romances in K/L fics? I myself can't think of many examples.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I think you're looking at the bigger chapter fics for subplots usually--I know I've written (and read) plenty of Adama/Roslin and Helo/Sharon as background. Other more random ships I've written: Helo/OFC, Zak/Cally, Romo/Sonja (Lee's political aide Six), Caprica/Baltar, Chief/Boomer.

A few other ships I've seen/read as secondary to K/L: Dee/Zak in Coffeesuperhero's Adama Brothers series, Zak/Caprica/Baltar in Innibis' Aladdin fic.

[astreamofstars.livejournal.com]

Um, I hope it’s ok for me to just drop into this discussion? I’m not a K/L shipper particularly, as those of you who know me are aware, (I have nothing against them, I'm just a Laura-focused reader and writer) but I found the discussion by accident and it made me think.

I think maybe (and this might fall under the ‘too complicated’ aspect of taragel’s comments) it’s partly because Kara and Lee never really got it together in canon? And if you’re writing a story that’s set in canon, that makes it much harder to slot into the fic, because so much of what went on between them was UST and hidden away so that other characters weren’t that aware of it? So if you’re writing a story that, say, focuses on A/R, it’s much harder to put a lot of K/L into it without stepping away from the main characters in the fic completely. You know? You can fairly easily put a few references into a K/L fic about Laura moving into Bill’s quarters, or the Agathons’ playing happy families with Hera, but it’s harder to slip in references to things that go on entirely behind closed doors or in their heads, with Kara and Lee. I do see a lot more K/L-as-secondary-pairing in AU fics than I do in canon-based fics.

There’s also the fact that, if you’re writing anything set in canon, both Kara and Lee have canon marriages with other people, which for most other pairings isn’t a factor. Some people I know are a little squicked by infidelity, and so don’t want to write that. Also, if you want to actually get Kara and Lee together, you need to find in-character ways to get Sam and Dee out of the picture. That’s fine if it’s a K/L fic where that relationship is the focus, but maybe if they’re not the main pairing, it’s just more time and effort than the writer wants to spend on a ship that wasn’t one they had a big interest in anyway, if it doesn’t affect the story they want to tell that much.

That said, I think in A/R fics, K/L is often a secondary ship, or at the very least, if they show up much, there’s often some reference to there being something going on between them, even if they’re not ‘together’. A/R fans do seem to like the family dynamics of having some kind of A/R, K/L set-up. I can’t give recs right at the moment, but if I get chance when I get home, I’ll see if I can find a few.

*slopes out again*

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Hey girl! Welcome to our playground! ;)

I was just saying that point down thread actually! About how it's easier to slot in married characters as background (I've seen a fair number of secondary K/S in Adama/Roslin fic which is always a little surprising to me, but I think this is why--you don't have to delve into it much).

I have no squicks about fictional infidelity, so that one is always like a "oh yeah, that's right" for me, because I don't even consider it myself, but that's a really good point too!

Thanks for stopping by and contributing!

[astreamofstars.livejournal.com]

Thanks :)

I don't even know that it's married characters. It's just easier to slot in ships where the relationship is overt and obvious to the other characters, which K/L isn't so much, because so much of it did take place behind closed doors. Otherwise, the ship becomes a whoooooole other subplot, which might not necessarily be what the author wants to spend time on.

The infidelity thing ... I think people just have certain things that they don't particularly enjoy reading and writing about, and for some people, that's one of them. It doesn't bother me in fictional terms, but I have seen other people mention it. But then, I think it's the same for every ship - there are certain things about them that just turn people off them. I mean, with A/R, I've seen enough "Ew, old people! Squicky! I don't want to read/write about that!" comments from people to irritate me, but you know, that's just the way some people feel about it, and it's their choice what they like to read and write about :)

And just ... in general, what one person sees in a ship isn't what another person sees in it. If you're a huge fan of one ship, it's hard to see why other people don't want to explore the nuances of it because it's just so awesome! But for them, that awesomeness comes in a different form, and they might not see what was so special about your ship, because if it had affected them the way it affected you, they'd be shipping it, but they don't, so they don't neceesarily feel the need to write about it. I dunno.

I'm always really interested to read fic where my favourites are a secondary pairing, though, because they are often treated differently when they're written by someone who doesn't ship them as much, or at all. That can be fascinating. Do you find that when you do come across K/L as a secondary pairing, or do you think they're generally written 'right'?

Ok, three glasses of wine. I don't know if that made any sense, and I hope there was nothing offensive in it. I apologise if there was! I hope it was useful getting the viewpoint of someone outside of the ship, though ♥

[sugarhaven.livejournal.com]

Not sure if this is what you had in mind but I love Forgotten (http://nixa-jane.livejournal.com/54586.html), a short Kara/Helo fic by nixa_jane. Lee is seldom mentioned (just couple sentences here and there) but when he is it is incredibly powerful and touching.

[sugarhaven.livejournal.com]

I just realized that the title of the fic is "Forgetting" not "Forgotten". I apologize for the mistake.

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

Heh, I've actually tried to write Kara/Lee background in a Kara/Leoben fic and I keep failing at it. I've written Kara thinking longingly about Sam while imprisoned on New Caprica, but I've never been able to do the same with Kara/Lee, even though that would also make sense. For me it feels like Lee is so needy, like he wants more than the little bit of attention he'd get by being in a background pairing. Or as said above, that the Kara/Lee relationship takes so much explaining that I can't just drop in references to it and expect them to work.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Lol. Needy!Lee. That's interesting.

It does take a bit more context I suppose...although...not really? I mean if you've seen the show, and you're taking a canon approach to what they've been through and their emotions...I don't see why people wouldn't know/understand how complicated they are.

I could definitely see why writing Kara longing for anyone romantically would be hard, and even maybe why it would be easier to write her longing for Sam and all that he represents (ease/comfort/the illusion of "normalcy") rather than the conflicted mass of feelings she has for Lee.

[kballgetlost.livejournal.com]

I think there are a ton of reasons as everyone above has already mentioned, but my feeling is that the main reason is just simply lack of interest. And I don't mean that the majority of the fandom is not interested in K/L, I just mean the person writing the particular fic about a different ship is obviously focusing on that particular ship. I've been writing fanfic for a few years now (haven't delved into BSG fic yet!) but when I have written in the past it's usually for a particular ship and I don't often bring other ships into the background unless it directly impacts the story I'm trying to tell.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I admit I was thinking more of the big epics, where folks are rewriting large swathes of canon (or plunging them into AUs), and as such they can't just limit to only focusing on their OTP.

[howlinchickhowl.livejournal.com]

Interesting discussion today! I've really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts on the subject, mine are slightly less analysis-y than everyone else's but here we go.

I think it goes more to the nature of people who ship pilots than anything else. Pilots are just not a secondary ship, and I don't mean that in a kind of, they're the ONLY thing, way, but I mean that, from what I've seen of people hanging out by the fandom watercooler, if you're into pilots, then you're ALL in, they're IT.

With a few exceptions, pilots shippers don't tend to be multi-shippers, because this one relationship is kind of all consuming. And it seems to me that the reason you don't often see them as a secondary ship is because it's the kind of thing where, if you ship them at all, you ship them all the way, or else you just don't really care about them, and the people who don't really care about them are the people writing the other fic.

Seems to me as well (and I may be wrong because I didn't really fact-check or anything) that the examples you've listed of K/L as secondary ships in fics are all written by people who ship pilots.

Anyways, that's how I sees it.

:)

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Interesting!

I don't consider Mia a K/L shipper--she's A/R all the way but she has affection for other ships (she's written Kara/Sam as well).

I think in general people who ship usually stick to their OTPs, though there are exceptions of course. I just wondered why in the larger fics that people sometimes post--like the rewrites of big swathes of canon, you almost never see Kara/Lee as a ship. I mean I think the representation in those is that your far more likely to see Lee/Dee or Kara/Sam (even after canon basically ended those relationships for the most part). Just a curiosity to me.

AND YOU HAVE NOT WRITTEN ANY FIC THIS WEEK YOUNG LADY. YOU BETTER BE READY TO PEN SOME SMOOCHAGE TOMORROW! ;) OR ELSE!

[pressdbtwnpages.livejournal.com]

I think you're on to something here, sort of.

I think lots of hardcore pilots shippers don't READ non-pilotsfic where other shippers might be willing to read a story for a background pairing (maybe because we have an excess of riches to choose from?). In addition to all of the difficulty of making K/L a background pairing, it's also not really worth it because you're not going to pick up additional readers?

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I think it goes more to the nature of people who ship pilots than anything else. Pilots are just not a secondary ship, and I don't mean that in a kind of, they're the ONLY thing, way, but I mean that, from what I've seen of people hanging out by the fandom watercooler, if you're into pilots, then you're ALL in, they're IT.

*smirks*

I want to know your reasons WHY for this statement. It intrigues me! (And this is not to suggest I'm disagreeing - as I fully realize I'm the outlier of the group - but I'd like to know WHY.)

Feel like humouring me with more thinky thoughts *whispers*