No Takebacks

I will kick things off with a rec of the positively gorgeous Adama/Roslin modern AU by

miabicicletta, The Book of Pythia (http://miabicicletta.livejournal.com/82573.html) (link is to the final chapter). Kara and Lee (and the slightly-less tortured than canon triad that they make with Zak) are a major subplot as part of Bill's family. It's a real kick to see them through Laura's eyes as she meets each one of them and pieces together the connections between them. Overall, Miabicicletta has a stunning way with language and the fic has a beautifully soothing ethereal quality to the storytelling. Well worth checking out!

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scifishipper.livejournal.com

I've seen Kara/Lee written as a secondary ship in some Bill/Saul fics. Recently,

plaid_slytherin's Homecoming (http://plaid-slytherin.livejournal.com/160627.html), which features some delightfully uncomfortable Lee trying to cope with the fact that Saul is his new step-dad. LOL. And there's some K/L bar sex and an awkward discovery... A fun little fic!

I'm not exactly sure why K/L don't appear in the background of many fics, although I think you already listed all of the reasons I might consider as possible.

Edited Date: 2011-10-27 12:31 pm (UTC)

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I know that the second part of

mserrada's Wounded Wing (http://mserrada.livejournal.com/2010/10/11/) is Kara / Lee focused, but I actually read the first part as FAR more Kara / Sam and then (once she's abducted) as Kara gen. The Kara / Lee relationship is certainly in Kara's mind (primarily associated with guilt) but it's not the primary focus of that fic. Their potential relationship and the fallout from their night on New Caprica move into a secondary role. I haven't read the sequel (the second half of that fic which

mserrada is currently writing), but I understand that Kara / Lee become much more important during Part 2.

*Note: Please read the author's warnings, much of it takes place during Kara's incarceration on New Caprica and the fic contains triggering materials.

Here's the non-embedded link in case the other doesn't work:
http://mserrada.livejournal.com/2010/10/11/

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Really interesting question. Since I don't stray from the K/L sandbox too often, I don't have any recs, but I do have some theories about why we see dimisnihed K/L in other works and perhaps in fandom over all as the series progressed. (SHE HAS THEORIES!!!)

Goes back to something that keeps coming up at the BBC-- K/L were telegraphed (loudly) from day one that they were the prime-time will-they-or-won't-they OTP. They were the Ross and Rachel, the Sam and Diane, the ... what's their names that Cybill Shepard and Bruce Willis played in Moonlighting. They were (intentionally or by accident) the young, pretty main-character couple that spend the entire series trying to get together.

The problem was the genre. Not sci-fi, but the focus on realism/naturalism and the ensemble nature of the show. From the get-go, it was apparent that philsophical and political issues were the primary focus. And that does't mesh well with the traditional sitcom/drama OTP. This isn't to say that it can't be done; it's just these people never figured out how to strike a balance. You also have a "too many characters to keep up with" problem that rears its ugly head in S3 and never goes away. (It's why 4.5 is such a storytelling trainwreck-- too many balls in the air.)

... and so I fear what resulted was a writers' room v. network marketing fight. And it's also why we get such lovely shippy stills every season. Let's face it-- cute, hot, young people sell shows. But the idea of those pretty sexy hot young thngs and will-they-won't-they that is such a staple of television never got reconciled with the show's larger arcs. I see it as a gimme to the network and as a hook for the audience-- similiar to the much-maligned attempt at stand-alone eps in the back half of S3, just on a more massive (and subtle) scale.

And so, over time, due to lack of coherent direction on this point, the prime-time OTP storyline began to splinter. There are lots of arguments to be made on when it happened (you most often hear S3, or 2.5 or even the arrival of Sam, but I'd stake my money on the end of S1, actually. I'll unveil that grand theory when the BBC gets to KLG1 in a couple of weeks.)

And as the prime-time young/hot/sexy OTP faltered, other ships were there to step in and become a bigger part of the storyline, most notably A/R. I think that's why we see such a swell of fic and ferver in that area from S3 on. It took the torch from K/L storywise, so to speak.

As for why other ship fics never feature K/L my guess is they (i) figured they were a big enough deal already and didn't need extra love, (ii) got exasperated with later K/L arcs and behavior and didn't want to spend any time on them, or (iii) the latter fics especially became a reflection of splintered OTP storytelling and honestly didn't know what direction to take it in.

But hey, that's just my pea brain. ; )

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Forgot to add this to the original post, but wanted to say that I especially seldom see fics that are not Adama/Roslin (or of course some variant of the quad) that feature Kara/Lee as a secondary ship. It could be because they don't really easily fit into the storylines of anyone else, but I think it would be interesting if there were say, a Helo/Sharon fic with secondary Kara/Lee, or Kat/Hot Dog (heh) or Cheif/Cally. And further flung...Ellen/Saul or Caprica/Baltar (set during S1, when Kara-Baltar sexing happens) or whatever.

Ooh writing that made me think of a rec though! Our own

kag523's The Tighs that Bind (http://kag523.livejournal.com/198329.html) (link is to the final chapter) features Caprica/Sam as the primary ship with Kara/Lee as the background (Kara and Caprica are both daughters of Ellen/Saul--so that ship is involved too of course!)

Edited Date: 2011-10-27 03:05 pm (UTC)

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I love these theories! I'll definitely try to pop by and check out your commentary when you get to KLG1. I'd be interested in how you see that!

As for why other ship fics never feature K/L my guess is they (i) figured they were a big enough deal already and didn't need extra love, (ii) got exasperated with later K/L arcs and behavior and didn't want to spend any time on them, or (iii) the latter fics especially became a reflection of splintered OTP storytelling and honestly didn't know what direction to take it in.

As an addition to these (which you need not agree with) I also wonder if part of the reason this happens is that there were some pretty nasty 'ship wars' going on during fandom's heyday. (I've heard stories. Honestly - it's nuts!) In any case, I came into this post-finale so I (luckily) avoided them entirely, but it's interesting that when I'm trying to befriend people of different ships - especially those who've been around FOREVER - there's a strong sense of 'who is this girl and what the hell is her angle?!?' because for YEARS there was little crossover between them and the hard feelings remain.

I do, however, see that as changing. BSG Epics has been a great start, and from what I've seen of fandom in general, the people who are still here love the show no matter what and tend to be mature enough to recognize that one taste doesn't suit all. Perhaps (if fandom continues) we'll eventually see a resurgence of Kara / Lee in other people's writing. K :)

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I say this all the time but I so wish I could've watched more seasons of the show that BSG was in S1 and parts of S2.

I do wonder if they ever had a grand plan for Kara/Lee but...honestly I kind of doubt it. Right from the beginning they had no sense of how to build this as a ship--they were going to open ACT OF CONTRITION! episode 4! with them having just had sexytimes and regretting it. Squandering that much UST so early would have been so unbelievably criminal that it just shouts to me that they had no idea what they were doing there, and the mostly terrific build/evolution of their relationship (with a terrible series of missteps in S3) was totally a happy accident.

Edited Date: 2011-10-27 03:09 pm (UTC)

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sugarhaven.livejournal.com

I don't really read very many non-pilot fics, so I don't have much to add to the discussion, but I was wondering, how often do we actually see secondary romances in K/L fics? I myself can't think of many examples.

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I think you're looking at the bigger chapter fics for subplots usually--I know I've written (and read) plenty of Adama/Roslin and Helo/Sharon as background. Other more random ships I've written: Helo/OFC, Zak/Cally, Romo/Sonja (Lee's political aide Six), Caprica/Baltar, Chief/Boomer.

A few other ships I've seen/read as secondary to K/L: Dee/Zak in Coffeesuperhero's Adama Brothers series, Zak/Caprica/Baltar in Innibis' Aladdin fic.

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I also wonder if part of the reason this happens is that there were some pretty nasty 'ship wars' going on during fandom's heyday.

**shifty eyes**

I know not of what you speak. *g*

Seriously though, while it got a little heated at times back in the day, I only ever remember that being in the K/L v. K/S realm. And even then it was simply two different viewpoints on how the storyline should turn out and who was the actual OTP and whatnot. But that seems pretty normal when you're in the thick of it and character fates (and ships) are still uncertain.

I will say there wasn't so much a sense of cameraderie and a "we're all in this together" feeling as there is now. And that's nice to see. And I'm glad peeps are making friends and collaborating and whatnot. But I will say---and this might be the simplest and most straightforward answer to T's question---

Other ships don't interest me. There's nothing wrong with them and I'm all for everyone being free to love what they love, but it's not my cuppa. And so for the limited amount of time I have to devote to fandom acticities, I'm going to focus on what I like. And I'd wager that that is precisely why we don't see more K/L in other shippy fic. Because it's other shippy fic. There's no value judgment to it, it just it what it is.

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Other ships don't interest me. There's nothing wrong with them and I'm all for everyone being free to love what they love, but it's not my cuppa. And so for the limited amount of time I have to devote to fandom acticities, I'm going to focus on what I like. And I'd wager that that is precisely why we don't see more K/L in other shippy fic. Because it's other shippy fic. There's no value judgment to it, it just it what it is.

Word on all this. What sparked this particular discussion topic was a fic posted to BSG_Epics (which, I think, if you're going to find secondary ships anywhere--they're going to be in those huge long epic fics, because you have room and need them as a mirror/foil/enabler to your mains) that literally listed about 8 different ships in the header but no Kara/Lee. And it just got me thinking that you really seldom see them as a secondary ship in other fics (save for a few A/Rs maybe). I imagine part of that too is because technically they weren't "together" in canon. I've seen a surprising amount of Kara/Sam in Adama/Roslin fics, which seems somewhat counterintuitive to me (despite Bill's cluelessness) but I think when you don't want to deal with another couple's issues but need other characters to make your fic non-insular...a married couple is much easier to slot in (regardless of the state of their canonical marriage) and gloss over a bit too.

From:

astreamofstars.livejournal.com

Um, I hope it’s ok for me to just drop into this discussion? I’m not a K/L shipper particularly, as those of you who know me are aware, (I have nothing against them, I'm just a Laura-focused reader and writer) but I found the discussion by accident and it made me think.

I think maybe (and this might fall under the ‘too complicated’ aspect of

taragel’s comments) it’s partly because Kara and Lee never really got it together in canon? And if you’re writing a story that’s set in canon, that makes it much harder to slot into the fic, because so much of what went on between them was UST and hidden away so that other characters weren’t that aware of it? So if you’re writing a story that, say, focuses on A/R, it’s much harder to put a lot of K/L into it without stepping away from the main characters in the fic completely. You know? You can fairly easily put a few references into a K/L fic about Laura moving into Bill’s quarters, or the Agathons’ playing happy families with Hera, but it’s harder to slip in references to things that go on entirely behind closed doors or in their heads, with Kara and Lee. I do see a lot more K/L-as-secondary-pairing in AU fics than I do in canon-based fics.

There’s also the fact that, if you’re writing anything set in canon, both Kara and Lee have canon marriages with other people, which for most other pairings isn’t a factor. Some people I know are a little squicked by infidelity, and so don’t want to write that. Also, if you want to actually get Kara and Lee together, you need to find in-character ways to get Sam and Dee out of the picture. That’s fine if it’s a K/L fic where that relationship is the focus, but maybe if they’re not the main pairing, it’s just more time and effort than the writer wants to spend on a ship that wasn’t one they had a big interest in anyway, if it doesn’t affect the story they want to tell that much.

That said, I think in A/R fics, K/L is often a secondary ship, or at the very least, if they show up much, there’s often some reference to there being something going on between them, even if they’re not ‘together’. A/R fans do seem to like the family dynamics of having some kind of A/R, K/L set-up. I can’t give recs right at the moment, but if I get chance when I get home, I’ll see if I can find a few.

*slopes out again*

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Hey girl! Welcome to our playground! ;)

I was just saying that point down thread actually! About how it's easier to slot in married characters as background (I've seen a fair number of secondary K/S in Adama/Roslin fic which is always a little surprising to me, but I think this is why--you don't have to delve into it much).

I have no squicks about fictional infidelity, so that one is always like a "oh yeah, that's right" for me, because I don't even consider it myself, but that's a really good point too!

Thanks for stopping by and contributing!

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the show that BSG was in S1 and parts of S2.

In some ways it was SO much more traditional TV drama. With humor and cute moments and shippy stuff as well as the dark and twisty. It's when the philosophical took over that it became kind of a one-note deal. (And Lord knows I'm all for the philosophical, but I also happen to believe that it can live in harmony with all of those other elements.)

I was going to mention that! Sexytime!FAIL!!!! I think the fact they considered it tells us all we need to know:

NO

FUCKING

CLUE

.

None at all. What's more and more amazing to me these days is how we got such a remarkable ship and such fantastic pilot moments out of what appeared to be a story arc conceived in the midst of chaos theory.

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What's more and more amazing to me these days is how we got such a remarkable ship and such fantastic pilot moments out of what appeared to be a story arc conceived in the midst of chaos theory.

Yeah, me too, and ESPECIALLY, that (leaving aside all the moments we wanted and should have but didn't get) their Season 4/4.5 arc was phenomenal! Such growth! Such support! EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY HAD A SCENE!! Unbelievable.

Of course if you look at the parts we didn't get (like why Lee went off to play in the essentially powerless quorum instead of demanding to stick with Kara and help her find Earth once she CAME BACK FROM THE DEAD, it all falls apart. But if you only look at what we DID get, it was gorgeous and beautiful and even had an arc and growing love/trust that lead to....

nowhere. (Because they suck.)

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Seriously though, while it got a little heated at times back in the day, I only ever remember that being in the K/L v. K/S realm.

*grins* I'll believe you, as I wasn't there. :)

Other ships don't interest me. There's nothing wrong with them and I'm all for everyone being free to love what they love, but it's not my cuppa.

And perhaps THAT is yet another reason why K/L don't show up as much as the secondary pairing in other fic. I'm sure other people must feel the same, and I certainly know that when I check out the entry numbers of non-K/L paired fics I've written versus K/L pairings, it's obvious that if K/L take top billing, then FAR more readers are there. (Although I have to say, A / R readers are WAY better about commenting, if you compare comment numbers to readers).

KAGRandom: My hubby and I recently wrote a fic together. He doesn't particularly ship K / L at all (I know... I know... I torture him ENDLESSLY by writing K/L and making him beta) so when we were laying out characters for Metastasis, he actually said "So who are your main readers. Take that pairing and make it the lead." Hee hee! (Very cold and logical planning FTW.) TA DA! So Kara / Lee buddycops kicking ass on an infected ship became the order of the day. Woot!

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*hugs* THANK YOU! :D X 1000

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I definitely have to focus on the haves over the have-nots or the rage comes back with a vengeance. And even considering the have-nots and the WTFery, we got a tremendously epic couple from people who didn't have the slightest clue what they were on about. And that in itself is pretty remarkable.

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There may have been other epic ship wars I didn't know about(again b/c I never strayed out of the sandbox...), but the only stuff on my radar screen was K/L. And in that sense, I think fandom was a lot more segregated then than it is now.

(Although I have to say, A / R readers are WAY better about commenting, if you compare comment numbers to readers).

This is interesting. My only guess here is that maybe the A/R fandom has had a slightly different trajectory than K/L (where K/L may have peaked earlier, and interest has waned so the interaction is down.) But I'm no expert.

So did he co-write Metastasis? That's very cool. And good thinking on the ship-plotting. Pragmatism never fails. ; )

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I think it probably goes to what astreamofstars said below. They are tough to tackle as a secondary pairing, b/c they're so complicated and take so much work. Helo/Sharon show up everywhere b/c (i) they've always been together, and (ii) that ship is about as solid as it gets. Much easier to use them if you want a secondary storyline that doesn't take away from your primaries.

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So did he co-write Metastasis? That's very cool.

The plot is actually almost entirely D, not me. He and I both hashed out the rough outline together and the subthemes and dreams (right down to the last scenes, which I NEVER do in my own fic). Then I did the writing, with D's input. SO I don't know how you break that up percentage-wise, LOL, but I definitely would say he's co-author!

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