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no_takebacks...or just can't contain their squee to a single post (and an afterparty).
Today's DPP is all about Eye of Jupiter (with maybe a bit of bonus Rapture as well). I decided a few days ago that one of my ideas for the DPP was lame, so I started looking around for a replacement post...and then I remembered, of course, that this is a rewatch comm. And obviously yes we have the rewatches, but we used to have other episode-themed posts as well. So, for this week anyway, we have an all you can post EoJ rewatch day!
A little motivation:
Obviously, this is a noteworthy episode in the story of our pilots, but it's also a fairly controversial one. How did you feel the first time you saw it, when Lee walked into Kara's Raptor and then we got pretty much the hottest scene in all of BSG? Were you surprised? Were you angry that they were cheating? Sad that Lee wouldn't cheat (oops) and Kara wouldn't divorce?
I remember being absolutely thrilled, and I loved the way they did the reveal. Later, it gave me hope throughout much of season four that one day we would just turn a corner and see them randomly outmaking and it would be like "Oh hi, didn't you know we've been sleeping together all this time?" Of course, it didn't exactly happen that way. But at least EoJ gave us the possibility.
As for them having an affair...well that's kind of a complicated question for me, since while I don't think it was right I also can't quite fault either of them for it. Which makes me feel like something of a hypocrite, as I normally cannot forgive anyone who cheats on their partner, no way no how. So why do I continue to love them and sympathize with them? Maybe because I was already attached to the idea of them as a pair before their significant others showed up. Maybe because I can forgive Kara anything. Maybe it's because I know it meant something to them and wasn't just meaningless frakking around. Or maybe it's because I'm so drawn to the idea of them as characters who are so incredibly screwed up that they marry the wrong people...characters who are so lost that the only moment they have together is one that's stolen and fleeting.
Or maybe it's just because I'm a crazy fangirl. Thoughts?
Now, this doesn't have to be all somber reflection. Bring the pics. The gifs. The squee. The random thoughts you have about this episode. The recs!
Of course, I have a fic rec to start us off.
The Chandrasekhar Limit by![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
vnilla : This fic does not directly deal with the events of EoJ, but is all about that twisted and all-too-fleeting period between Unfinished Business and Maelstrom. And it's beautiful.
Go ahead and rec your favorite fics about EoJ/Rapture, or the events surrounding it. Have you written an infidelicious fic yourself? Don't be afraid to do a little self-promotion!
P.S. Congratulations on the overwhelming participation in the friending meme! My inbox is still recovering (I was afraid that turning off notifications would jinx it and nobody would join in...). Well done, shippers. Well done. Although I'm a little disappointed that nobody guessed my name.
Bonus: I had intended to do a line on the friending meme about favorite pairing(s) other than K/L (because such a thing does exist). Somehow, this got lost, so if you want to answer it you can do that now.
Today's DPP is all about Eye of Jupiter (with maybe a bit of bonus Rapture as well). I decided a few days ago that one of my ideas for the DPP was lame, so I started looking around for a replacement post...and then I remembered, of course, that this is a rewatch comm. And obviously yes we have the rewatches, but we used to have other episode-themed posts as well. So, for this week anyway, we have an all you can post EoJ rewatch day!
A little motivation:
Obviously, this is a noteworthy episode in the story of our pilots, but it's also a fairly controversial one. How did you feel the first time you saw it, when Lee walked into Kara's Raptor and then we got pretty much the hottest scene in all of BSG? Were you surprised? Were you angry that they were cheating? Sad that Lee wouldn't cheat (oops) and Kara wouldn't divorce?
I remember being absolutely thrilled, and I loved the way they did the reveal. Later, it gave me hope throughout much of season four that one day we would just turn a corner and see them randomly outmaking and it would be like "Oh hi, didn't you know we've been sleeping together all this time?" Of course, it didn't exactly happen that way. But at least EoJ gave us the possibility.
As for them having an affair...well that's kind of a complicated question for me, since while I don't think it was right I also can't quite fault either of them for it. Which makes me feel like something of a hypocrite, as I normally cannot forgive anyone who cheats on their partner, no way no how. So why do I continue to love them and sympathize with them? Maybe because I was already attached to the idea of them as a pair before their significant others showed up. Maybe because I can forgive Kara anything. Maybe it's because I know it meant something to them and wasn't just meaningless frakking around. Or maybe it's because I'm so drawn to the idea of them as characters who are so incredibly screwed up that they marry the wrong people...characters who are so lost that the only moment they have together is one that's stolen and fleeting.
Or maybe it's just because I'm a crazy fangirl. Thoughts?
Now, this doesn't have to be all somber reflection. Bring the pics. The gifs. The squee. The random thoughts you have about this episode. The recs!
Of course, I have a fic rec to start us off.
The Chandrasekhar Limit by
vnilla : This fic does not directly deal with the events of EoJ, but is all about that twisted and all-too-fleeting period between Unfinished Business and Maelstrom. And it's beautiful.Go ahead and rec your favorite fics about EoJ/Rapture, or the events surrounding it. Have you written an infidelicious fic yourself? Don't be afraid to do a little self-promotion!
P.S. Congratulations on the overwhelming participation in the friending meme! My inbox is still recovering (I was afraid that turning off notifications would jinx it and nobody would join in...). Well done, shippers. Well done. Although I'm a little disappointed that nobody guessed my name.
Bonus: I had intended to do a line on the friending meme about favorite pairing(s) other than K/L (because such a thing does exist). Somehow, this got lost, so if you want to answer it you can do that now.
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Date: 2010-08-06 04:09 pm (UTC)However, that being said, I hate that I am given this beautiful moment in such a way that I can't root for them in it. Because adultery sucks, frankly; it's selfish and dishonest and disrespectful, and it makes me uncomfortable to watch, and despite my fascination with them and their chemistry I was crashingly disappointed by this turn in their story. I found this whole three-parter from EoJ through TABFAYW really depressing, personally, and it's my least favorite stretch of storyline between the two of them. It's not that I was rooting for Kara/Sam or Lee/Dee -- both of them got married for the wrong reasons, and in my opinion both of them should have faced the problems and lies in those relationships and should have taken a good hard look at the situation and apologized to their spouses for the ways they had mistreated them and acknowledged that their commitment had been a mistake and gotten divorced. In fact, if they had done what Lee suggested and come clean to their spouses about their feelings and gotten divorced and started over with each other openly and honestly, I would have been behind them on that. Because it would have been hurtful but honest. But this scene in EoJ basically made it clear that what needed to be done to get them out of the messes they'd created for themselves was never going to be done, and TABFAYW confirmed that. This scene was basically about how we were going to be stuck in the stupid Quad for the foreseeable future, and that was very frustrating to me.
Sorry for the gloomy parade ~ I don't mean to rain on anyone else's squee, that's just how I feel about the story, personally. But I can't deny they are lovely to look at together. And although I'm sure most of you have read it a million times, I'd like to recommend a fic set around this time period that envisions five possible first kisses between the two of them after Unfinished Business: Gold to Iron (http://mercurial-wit.livejournal.com/35835.html) by fayhe and stars_like_dust. The fifth scenario is *exactly* what I wanted to see, from Dee's "No. I blame Lee" (too right!) to Lee's "Just once, let's wait till we're not hurting anyone else to do this" (thank you!) to the reality of pain and awkwardness no matter what they did, to their glorious reacquaintance in realms beyond the physical (so sweet!), to the perfect final kiss. Yes. That's what I wanted.
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Date: 2010-08-06 04:49 pm (UTC)favorite pairings other than K/L: I'm not sure if this is intended to include other fandoms, or just other BSG pairings, but I'll take the more expansive definition :)
In BSG, my favorite other pairing is Helo/Athena, though I must admit I like Helo far more than Athena (her killing spree in the final season made me angry - she gunned down a courageous rebel leader who was working to change their society because she happened to be standing next to her kid in the hallway. And she appears to have gunned down Boomer purely for revenge. And she faced zero consequences for either action. If you want to be treated like a human being with individual rights, Athena, you might try extending the same treatment to your fellow Cylons). I also liked Billy/Dee, and was secretly rooting for Gaeta/Dee before his preferences became clear. I think Adama/Roslin is interesting and sometimes lovely, though both of them frustrate me very much at different points, particularly in the final season. I think Tigh/Ellen is overplayed and annoying most of the time, but they do have moments of greatness.
My non-BSG romantic ships have included: unrequited Snape/Lily (Harry Potter), Spike/Buffy, David/Maddie (Moonlighting), unrequited Lennier/Delenn (Babylon 5), Kira/Odo (Deep Space Nine), and of course Elizabeth/Darcy (Pride & Prejudice).
I also tend to adopt friendships and family relationships to root for, such as: Kirk & Spock & McCoy (Star Trek), Simon & River (Firefly), Holmes & Watson (Sherlock Holmes), House & Wilson (House M.D.), Anakin & Obi-Wan (Star Wars), Batman & Robin, MacLeod & Methos & Joe (Highlander).
There are lots of great characters out there!
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Date: 2010-08-06 05:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-06 06:08 pm (UTC)I feel like there were several infidelicious fics at the
Did I want them to cheat? Hell no. Did they? Hell yes. Was it hot? Hell to the motherfrakking yes. When we got to that episode, I think my reaction was approximately, "Well, of course they are." They can't get away from each other. They don't even want to. So the kissing was a foregone conclusion, marriages or no. It also kinda confirmed for me that there probably wouldn't be a happy ending for anybody, but hey, that's what the Eternal Fanfiction is for, right? Right.
So it didn't bother me like it would have if I knew them and we all hung out on the weekends or something. In my real, three-dimensional life, I don't forgive cheating very easily. On my television screen or in my books, well, it's not so much that I'm comfortable with it, but if it works in the story and it's not like it was thrown in because the writers' various Ids are showing, well, I'm okay with it. And I agree with you, Shah-- there's probably not anything that Kara could do that I wouldn't forgive her for. She has an all-access pass to my heart. So does Lee. I love them even when I think they're wrong.
Other ships on the show: Adama/Roslin, forever. Squealed like the tiniest fangirl in Res Ship II. Watched the scene a zillion times. Shouted "THAT SHIT IS CANON" when they finally got around to it (although I don't care what Ron and Mary have to say about it, I'm with EJO: they totally did it on New Caprica, hellooooooooo). Zak/Dee (I know, I know, it wasn't on the show ever, but ♥_♥, you guys). Gaeta/Hoshi, Gaius/Caprica.
Does Zarek/Airlock count as a ship? Because they are Made For Each Other, and he should have met up with his One True Love the airlock back in Bastille Day and they should have been together FOR ALL TIME. >:(
Let's see, other people I ship: Han/Leia (FOREVER♥-- first OTP, y'all), Horatio/Archie (Horatio Hornblower), McKay/Sheppard (SGA), Weir/Caldwell (SGA), Sam/Jack/Daniel (SG-1 OT3!), Luke/Mara (SW EU), Zoe/Wash (Firefly), Buffy/Angel (BtVS), Willow/Tara (BtVS) (and Willow/Oz, because they were adorable and they broke my heart)...I could keep going, but those are the big ones.
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Date: 2010-08-06 06:53 pm (UTC)On Kara and Lee cheating...While it makes me happy to see them together, I don't think it is at all fair to their respective partners. While I don't like Dee (I was a die-hard Dee/Billy shipper), I don't think its fair to her or to Sam, whom I actually like a lot. I don't know why since I normally dislike people who get in the way of my ship, but I can't help but like him. (Maybe cause we have the same name ;). But we all know the only reason Lee married Dee was cause he was pissed at Kara, which is not a good reason at all. He was trying to one up Kara and it all came crashing down around their heads.
Anyway....other ships...Caprica/Gaius is my second next to Kara/Lee. The whole plot line with Caprica and Tigh for Caprica/Gaius shippers is like Fat!Lee. We like to pretend it never happened, but in the back of our minds we knew it did and it makes us cringe. I only like Adma/Roslin from a far, I find them adorable, but I don't want to read anything bout them. Then probably Helo/Athena. I think thats it.
For other shows....I'm with you, coffeesuperhero, I think Han/Leia was my first ship too...either that or Tracy/CK Dexter Haven from A Philadelphia Story. Others include Jack/Ianto (Torchwood), Booth/Brennan (Bones), Gibbs/Jenny (NCIS), Spike/Buffy (BtVS), Simon/Kaylee (Firefly), and Eric/Sookie (The books, NOT TrueBlood). There are plenty more since I'm a terrible shipper, but those are the ones I read most often.
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Date: 2010-08-06 07:18 pm (UTC)LOL. I think you summed this up perfectly for me. Too funny!
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Date: 2010-08-06 07:36 pm (UTC)Plus I also love their snark. "Can I make a suggestion you won't like?" "Do you make any other kind?"
This is one of many reasons why they're awesome :)
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Date: 2010-08-06 07:47 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-06 07:55 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-06 08:16 pm (UTC)Oh pilots. I just love 'em.
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Date: 2010-08-06 09:28 pm (UTC)I don't approve of cheating in RL. But, for some reason, I don't mind when it's Kara and Lee.
What bothered me most in the whole QoD thing wasn't the cheating (although I think it may have been more interesting if they had not cheated.) But it was the lack of meaningful resolution. It was like Lee won't cheat (even though he so totally was) and Kara won't divorce (even though her faith was only something important to her when it was convenient for her). It just seemed like bad excuses to keep them apart. It also bothered me that the writers couldn't think of a way to keep the UST between them AND allow Sam and Dee to keep their dignity.
My favorite pairing (on BSG) other than K/L is Helo/Racetrack. I have a whole post about it on my lj if you want to know more about them: Helo/Racetrack (http://entaiaime.livejournal.com/5051.html). It's not at all supported in canon, but I know that Leah Cairns played Racetrack based upon one of sabaceanbabe's fics.
Anyhoo.. I also ship Gambit/Rouge (X-Men) and Jayne/Kaylee (Firefly).
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Date: 2010-08-06 09:33 pm (UTC)While I certainly am not condoning either of their actions in this episode, I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate with regards to that line. Now, you can go ahead and say that this is just my crazy Kara love talking, but I think it's worth noting that their situations are different. Kara says it's just bending the rules...well Kara's rules, at that point, seem to be about divorce, namely that she won't do it. But she seems to be separated. She and Sam are not living together, hardly ever see each other...and while we don't know if she has admitted to her relationship with Lee, I think it's pretty damn likely that if Sam had asked she would have told them. So is it breaking the rules, or just bending them?
Of course, that doesn't make her part in Lee's betrayal of Dee any better. But then I'd say that maybe Kara sort of justifies that with her skewed perception of herself, that she expects herself to do the wrong thing...
/devil's advocate
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Date: 2010-08-06 10:14 pm (UTC)Don't apologize for the gloom parade! I thought it would be cool to have a discussion post for the epi since it is such a contentious topic.
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Date: 2010-08-06 10:16 pm (UTC)I dug around and found some of my fave EoJ era recs. I've especially loved
Oh, and Favorite pairing(s) other than K/L is totally Helo/Sharon 'cause they're made of adorable.
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Date: 2010-08-06 10:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-06 10:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-06 10:26 pm (UTC)I don't think its fair to her or to Sam, whom I actually like a lot. I don't know why since I normally dislike people who get in the way of my ship, but I can't help but like him.
I always felt that the writers really did a huge disservice to both Dee & Sam. Creating the QoD didn't just mess with K/L, but changed the character arc completely for Dee (not really for Sam, cuz, let's face it he didn't have much of an arc to begin with). I was always pissed off about her accepting Lee's proposal in the first place especially because she KNEW that it wasn't real for him. If you listen to the way he's asking, he sounds like a 5-year old who wants a piece of candy. "C'mon Dee! Just marry me, okay?" Seriously? I dunno.
The whole plot line with Caprica and Tigh for Caprica/Gaius shippers is like Fat!Lee. We like to pretend it never happened, but in the back of our minds we knew it did and it makes us cringe.
OMG, THIS. I never understood the point of it. Why would they even DO that? Gaius was on Galactica at the same time and they had established that he loved Caprica & she loved him, so why the frak did they bring Tigh into it? It's one of those plot lines that convinces me the writers were making a lot of stuff up as they were going along at that point and didn't really have a clear outline for S4.
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Date: 2010-08-06 10:28 pm (UTC)THIS. THIS ALL THE WAY. *high fives*
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Date: 2010-08-06 10:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-06 10:40 pm (UTC)Re. K/L again I think the writers did a huge disservice to Kara's character in particular because they killed her faith in that one (admittedly super hot & delicious) outmaking scene. For her to be sucking tongue with Lee one minute and refusing to divorce Sam because of her faith in the next is very wishy washy IMO and Kara is NOT wishy washy. Of course, they made it even worse when she goes back to Lee and tells her that she's thought about it and would be okay with divorcing Sam. You almost want to go up to the writers and say, "Make up your frakking minds! Do you want them together or not? Pick a side, ANY side and stick to it, for frak's sake."
I'm not really going to get into the cheating aspect of it because I feel that as
As far as who else I ship, no one really on BSG. But I ship Elizabeth & Darcy (Pride & Prejudice), Castle & Beckett (lurking on the comms there), Eowyn & Faramir (LoTR) and I used to ship Cristina & Owen (Grey's Anatomy).
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Date: 2010-08-06 10:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-06 10:54 pm (UTC)Hahaha...I love it too. But I think it is about their love being more important than their marriages (yes it does feel silly to write that). I've been trying to figure out why I love EoJ when I usually don't like characters who cheat. Like you said, dibs!
Also, seconding the love for Needful Things and olaf's fic. I actually left Needful Things off because I'm planning (spoiler alert!) to rec it in a later post.
Icons
Date: 2010-08-06 10:56 pm (UTC)Re: Icons
Date: 2010-08-06 10:58 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-06 11:41 pm (UTC)Thus endeth the rant. Lol.
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Date: 2010-08-06 11:50 pm (UTC)Oh yeah, I completely agree. And after Caprica miscarries, THEY ARE NEVER MENTIONED AGAIN. Its as if the writers realized what a mistake they made with that plot line and then decided to pretend that if they never speak of it again, it never actually happened. Nice try guys, but that ain't gonna work.
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Date: 2010-08-06 11:54 pm (UTC)Zarek/Airlock is my OTP. ;)
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Date: 2010-08-06 11:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-07 12:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-07 12:10 am (UTC)Everything from this point on in the series starts shifting into "I'm a BSG writer but I have no clue how to keep things going so I'm going to wing it and hope no one notices" territory for me.
LOL. Yes! This... ALL of this! I hate how K/L switch in just two episodes so now she wants to divorce Sam and Lee is now too noble for divorce. Gimme a frakkin' break, writers. I thought they were supposed to understand their characters..
I completely LOVE this post.
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Date: 2010-08-07 12:12 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-07 12:13 am (UTC)Re: Icons
Date: 2010-08-07 12:37 am (UTC)To give credit where it's due, I snagged the caps from frak_that.com, which has a ton of great images from this episode.
Thanks again! Beautiful work :)
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Date: 2010-08-07 02:48 am (UTC)BUT ... I don't know, I kind of loved the EoJ/Quadrangle stuff, because I loved that two people who are basically very heroic in their public lives (I think there's no question that Kara and Lee risk their lives over and over again to save others and in that sense they are certainly heroes) are such crap at personal relationships. It humanized them, somehow, to have them NOT be ultra-noble, and it made their doomed love affair that much hotter since I got great heaping spoonfuls of angst and self-loathing to go along with it. I wouldn't want to be MARRIED to either of them, but dramatically speaking, I did love that stuff VERY MUCH.
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Date: 2010-08-07 03:19 am (UTC)This sums up my feelings, too. Dibs, FTW!
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Date: 2010-08-07 03:21 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-08-07 04:31 am (UTC)I'm not Dee and I'm not Sam, I'm just an outsider who loves Kara and Lee and who feels disappointed, rather than personally betrayed, when they do things that hurt other people and thereby go against their own better natures. As an audience member, I can only say that I don't enjoy watching this storyline, and that I find it depressing rather than compelling. When I start having that reaction to a show, I have to take an emotional step back and say, 'I love these characters and I hope they will soon get back to a point where I can enjoy watching them again.'
Kara and Lee got back to that point fairly quickly for me. I think it takes a lot for me to permanently lose sympathy with a character. I can accept that characters I love sometimes do unjustifiable things, I just don't want to watch them doing them continually, because it gets me down.
Does it help to understand the emotional mindset behind the character's actions, even when I can't agree with their decisions? Yes. For instance, I actually enjoy the New Caprica arc, because it's emotionally honest and because the forgiveness between Kara and Lee is so beautiful when it finally comes.
No comparable emotional pay-off shows up to save the infidelity story. That being said, Kara and Lee's two instances of cheating - in Daybreak Part 2 and Eye of Jupiter - both make me sad, but I have more of an emotional problem with the Daybreak flashback table thing than with the EoJ make-out (and I will say that Lee seems to me the guiltier party in both instances, in action if not in intention -- Kara tends to be the advocate/instigator of cheating, but Lee is usually in more long-standing relationships with the people they choose to betray). To me the table flashback seems out of character in addition to being unpleasant, while the EoJ makeout does not seem out of character. By the middle of third season it was believable for Kara and Lee's love to have reached such a pitch that it might overwhelm the compassion and respect they owed to other important people in their lives who had the misfortune to be standing in their way. I don't find that romantic, but I do find it believable. Whereas it made little emotional sense to me that they would have the same reaction within the first few hours of their acquaintance.
In EoJ, Kara and Lee were in love with each other but married to other people. There is no good way to handle that situation, and that's why they should never have put themselves into it in the first place. But given that situation, there were better and worse ways to handle it. I think that Lee's proposal (admit their feelings and ask their spouses for divorce) would have been a better way to handle it than the sneaking around they were actually doing. But they could also have handled the situation worse than they did -- if Lee had been totally willing to lie to Dee and conduct a long-standing affair with Kara while stringing his wife along, I would have lost sympathy with his character. And Kara, even though she advocated cheating, wasn't using Sam in quite that dishonest a way, though I think it's fair to say that she was stringing him along. The fact that he let her get away with it doesn't make it okay. But clearly there were good elements in Kara and Sam's relationship as well as bad ones, and the blame for its exploitative elements cannot be placed entirely on either side, since both chose to accept the dalliance pattern rather than to make either a firm commitment or a clean break. But Sam was constantly asking Kara for a 'real marriage,' and he wanted her cheating to stop. She knew that was what he wanted but ignored his feelings.
To sum up, I can't agree with what Kara and Lee were doing, but I feel like I understand their feelings. And soon enough they moved on to other storylines in which I could root for them again.
C'est la vie in television :)
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Date: 2010-08-07 05:02 am (UTC)Now, when we put it in context, I totally get why you feel so strongly about it. However, although I'm not in favor of cheating in any way, shape or form, I have to confess that the only thing that really bothers me there is the fact it didn't lead to any sort of resolution between them.
I agree that adultery is selfish and dishonest and disrespectful, and in an ideal scenario, they would have divorced their spouses before starting any kind of relationship. However, I love the fact that they are human and, therefore, they don't always do the right thing. They frak up. I don't have to like it, but I accept and respect that. It makes them feel more real, somehow. Their marriages were a huge mistake in the first place and their "affair", regardless of how far we believe it really went, was not premeditated and was not caused by cheap needs or desires. They just couldn't resist anymore and gave in to very strong feelings. I think the bending of the rules Kara proposed, that would have made the whole thing become selfish and disrespectful. Giving in to emotions (and desires) that went way beyond what they felt for their respective partners was weak but forgivable, because it lacked the intention to hurt and deceive. To go on with that, that would be shameful. I'm glad Lee prevented that from happening. But I'm sad that Kara didn't accept to divorce Sam, and that Lee decided to keep his marriage to Dee anyway (although he was not cheating anymore, he still dishonest,IMO).
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Date: 2010-08-07 05:40 am (UTC)I pretty much agree with all you say here, though I'm not sure their affair lacked the intention to hurt and deceive (I think that is a more believable characterization of the table thing in Daybreak, which I feel was less convincingly emotionally motivated, but also less premeditated - both of them were drunk out of their minds and had clearly completely forgotten about Zak's existence). But Lee, at least, seemed pretty aware that he was both hurting and deceiving Dee by the time we get to EoJ. It was bothering him, as well it should have, but he didn't break off his rendez-vous with Kara until she made it clear that the messing around they had started with was not going to graduate to a more open and honest relationship. I, too, am glad that he broke things off at that stage. I think you're right that their feelings were deep and powerful, and that their weakness in giving in to them was understandable and in character. I just found it sad to watch them stay tangled up in the quadrangle mess with no end in sight, and I thought their making-out-sessions-that-are-not-leading-to-any-improvement-in-their-actual-relationships probably only made things worse. However, as I said in another comment, I think they could have behaved a lot worse. They were facing an awful situation (largely of their own making), but I believed in the depth of their desperation and emotion at this point in their relationship. I guess for many that made it easier to enjoy this part of the story as a portrayal of their forgivable and believable flaws - a humanizing element, as you say. But as for me, I just got depressed, perhaps because to me this episode seemed to signal that their feelings for each other were going to play out in a destructive way rather than in the beautiful way I had so much wanted to see.
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Date: 2010-08-07 05:36 pm (UTC)The whole situation sucked big time but they cannot be compared to those people who truly disrespect their wedding vows and their spouses by sleeping around just for the sake of it and that want to keep up appearences at all costs. The whole thing makes me truly sad because they could have finally corrected their previous mistakes and moved on, but I don't feel disappointed in their behaviour, not really, just truly, deeply sad. And if I were to feel disappointed at all, I'd be more disappointed at Kara because she was the one who felt OK with premeditated long-term cheating.
As for the flashbacks, I think if I had seen that in the beginning of the series, it would have looked bad for them. But by time we actually saw it (on the last episode), I was already more than convinced that it was their destiny to be together. In a show that focused so much on destiny and the repetition of certain patterns through cycles of time, it was clear to me that they intended to show that Lee and Kara's love story and destiny had been connected before, in another cycle.
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Date: 2010-08-07 07:03 pm (UTC)I think you're also probably right that, however their affair began, it probably came as a surprise to both of them -- a moment of weakness, desperation, passion, comfort, relief. Something like that. But by the time we get to EoJ, I feel that it has reached the premeditated stage. I think the episode is designed to give that impression -- we have the awkward, guilty little talk between Lee and Dee before he heads off to meet Kara's Raptor, and in the Raptor scene Kara implies that he has been using his position as CAG to schedule her on a lot of milkruns as excuses for them to have time alone together. He clearly feels bad about his own choices, and can't go on in that way for any longer. I feel bad about those choices, too, and I think the dishonesty and premeditation are what make me react the way I do to this part of the story, though again I agree that they could have behaved much worse. I also agree that their affair seems to have been quite short, and that Lee tried to rationalize it by setting certain limits on their physical intimacy and by pushing Kara to agree with him to make a clean break from their spouses. I am more disappointed in her cheating-is-fun attitude than in his, definitely. But I think it is only fair to note that she was separated from her husband, and we have no evidence that she lied to him about her involvement with Lee. Lee was not separated from Dee, and he definitely lied. So I'm disappointed in them both. But I also agree with you that I'm mainly just sad that they couldn't find their way out of their past mistakes.
I totally understand your viewpoint on the Daybreak flashbacks, and I think you're right that the intention of that storyline was to indicate that Kara and Lee were star-crossed lovers from the very first (though I think Ron Moore's point was that they were doomed from day one, not that they were destined to be together). I think the cyclical way you interpret their instant rapport is plausible and puts their actions in the best possible light, and that's great. Personally, the table scene did not work for me, it did not speak to me with the emotional resonance of great romance or great tragedy, much as Kara's mystic destiny fell flat for many other viewers. I think perhaps it was because once again destiny was being used as a narrative replacement for the realistic development of the genuine, human characters Kara and Lee had previously been. But of course destiny and cyclical time has a context within the show that can make all of this make sense; it just didn't emotionally work for me, personally.
Always good to hear from you, by the way! :) You keep on seeing the best in these scenes, and I'll keep on being reconciled to the poof, and between us we will give a little bit of love to all the parts of Kara and Lee's story that need it the most :)
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Date: 2010-08-08 01:27 pm (UTC)Deal. :)*sprinkles pilotslove around*
PS.: Perhaps I'm too optimistic and biased when it comes to pilots. LOL. The most importante thing, though, is this: it's always a pleasure bouncing off ideas with you,bb. Have a wonderful Sunday!!!!
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Date: 2010-08-08 02:29 pm (UTC)Nonsense! Aren't we all? :)
** dances about under pilotlove sprinkles in a vague approximation of an Irish jig **
And thank you, it's always a pleasure to keep these ideas bouncing back and forth! I hope you have a lovely weekend, too :)