DPP: Chemistry 101

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Greetings and salutations, 'shipper nation! This is Amy, known on your internets as ninjamonkey73, and I'm driving the DPP bus this week. Sit back and enjoy the ride...

I'd like to start the week off with an academic bang. Today, I'd like to talk about Sternberg's Triangular Theory of Love (inspired by my link surfing problem at Wikipedia). Let's discuss what makes our pilots light up the screen and hold our attention more than a year after the finale.



Excerpted from Wikipedia:

The triangular theory of love is a theory of love developed by psychologist Robert Sternberg. The theory characterizes love within the context of interpersonal relationships by three different components:

• Intimacy - Which encompasses feelings of closeness, connectedness, and bondedness.


• Passion - Which encompasses drives that lead to romance, physical attraction, and sexual consummation.


• Commitment - Which encompasses, in the short term, the decision to remain with another, and in the long term, the shared achievements and plans made with that other.

The "amount" of love one experiences depends on the absolute strength of these three components; the "type" of love one experiences depends on their strengths relative to each other. Different stages and types of love can be explained as different combinations of these three elements; for example, the relative emphasis of each component changes over time as an adult romantic relationship develops. A relationship based on a single element is less likely to survive than one based on two or three elements.




For me, I think Lee and Kara fall into the Romantic Love category. They had a bond (intimacy of the nonsexual kind) and certainly some UST/passion, but the commitment part of the triangle just never made it. Or when it did, they swung over to Companionate Love and toned down the UST.

So, nation, I ask you: How do you see Lee and Kara with regards to Sternberg's Triangular Theory of Love? Feel free to answer differently for different story arcs. And I'm never opposed to photographic evidence, where useful. You can also go off on "hot people are hot" tangents and skip the psychology entirely, if your idea of Katee's and Jamie's onscreen fireworks isn't at all scientific. ;)

Comments

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I'm going to be contrary and say that the answer to pilots is: EVERYTHING. ALWAYS.

But seriously, I feel like they have all of these things--YES, EVEN COMMITMENT. It's not a traditional marriage or dating commitment, but I think their level of commitment comes in through their working side/family side. Over and over they show how committed they are to supporting each other (like the mission to assassinate Cain or Under the Wing or end of Scar), to saving each other (in the mini and the mutiny), and to counting on only each other (The Oath, Islanded). Because they are both lovers (albeit briefly) and family (albeit not by blood--thankfully), I think they confound this chart a bit.

We all know--even a blind man could see--how much passion they have, whether frakking or fighting. And intimacy is fostered by the shared background, plus how much they're together and rely on each other, esp. in the earlier seasons, and really we got to see so much of that in the Final Cut to the Captain's Hand stretch. Unfortunately, the other relationships/marriages really made a big hit to this even more than their commitment in my opinion (hell, UB was all about how they were still and would always be committed to each other when you got right down to it).

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

I waffled on the commitment part this morning when I posted. I decided to stick with devil's advocate, but you're right. They are EVERYTHING and ALWAYS. :)

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

It's funny, I was just thinking about their commitment this morning and I totally agree, I'd even say that they were commited from the moment they met. To me, the biggest proof of their mutual devotion and commitment was that they always came back to each other, no matter how messed up their relationship was.

Not so safe for work (GIF)

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

(So much for thinky thoughts...)

OMG! Hot people are HOT! For those of you who missed the rewatch afterparty Saturday night, I wanted to share an observation made possible by slo-mo gifs and the inability to look away. Lee's on his knees at the beginning of this clip:



SQUEE!

As I said that night, first we must find where NBC Universal keeps their film vault, then procure a bag of angry squirrels. Once those key steps have been taken, we should be able to get our hands on all the extra footage they filmed that didn't make Scar!

Re: Not so safe for work (GIF)

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Lee's on his knees at the beginning of this clip

I know!!! Dude, one of my dreams as a K/L shipper is to get my hands on all the "Scar" footage that was left on the cutting room floor *g*

(I also wonder how Katee and Jamie approached that scene... especially Lee's amazing ass-grabbing lol)

Re: Not so safe for work (GIF)

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

He was supposed to be kissing her stomach/scar and that was supposed to trigger a flashback.

I love this commercial footage! I want to see more of this!

Re: Not so safe for work (GIF)

[nazkey.livejournal.com]

*Mesmerized by scene*

What? Huh? You guys saying something here?

*licks screen*

Re: Not so safe for work (GIF)

[nazkey.livejournal.com]

BTW ... not only is he on his knees, he does a total body rub as he makes his way up.

*fans self*

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I feel like Kara and Lee jump in and out of the triangle. I think they both want to be in the triangle with each other, but their personal demons and external events keep tossing them out. I think if there was no potential for the triangle, aka, the porch swing, we wouldn't have been so compelled.

*sigh*

Scar Deleted Scenes

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Since the subject of Scar came up again, I went digging around for some outtake photos. I came across this (and a few others from the same scene). Can someone clue me in? Is this scene on the DVDs (which I don't have)? I vaguely remember something about it....

(http://www.galacticabbs.com/index.php?app=gallery&module=images&img=77706)

Re: Scar Deleted Scenes

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Huh. I'll check when I get home. We skipped deleted scenes to keep on truckin' through the story and forgot to go back.

Re: Scar Deleted Scenes

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

I think it's just an auction the pilots had as a way to give away the belongings of those who'd died.

Re: Scar Deleted Scenes

[utenatai.livejournal.com]

Yup, in the deleted scenes.

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

Such a academic thinky question for Monday!:D

I think Lee and Kara fall into the Consumate Love category because they really were ALL 3. We knew that passion was there from the moment they met, intimacy has always been there in a way. Lee and Kara have always been connected whether by their past, their love of flying or just their mutual need for each other. One would think commitment would be hard to explain for them since they were never "together" but I think that's one of the easiest one for them. They were always devoted to each other in the most important ways possible; their hearts and souls belonged to only each other. Yes, at times their body belonged to another but I suppose that's not a big detail when you look at the big picture. They always came back to each other FOR each other, as long as Kara was fine, Lee could deal with his pain and vise verca. Personally, I think that's true commitment and devotion.

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Shhh! Don't tell anyone. I'm trying to look smart today so that later in the week when I devolve into full geek-out and squee I can point back to Monday. 8'D

Oh, wait. They can all read this, can't they? Move along people! Nothing to see here! :)

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

YES!!! There needs to a more clips and vids of Scar that we as shippers are required to view. Must find squirrels, this footage is worth a B&E.

Thank god for personal office:)

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Lucky you! I'm sitting here in an open floorplan office trying to decide if I can embed the EoJ gifs without being seen watching them. :)

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

If I can be be serious for moment here (not sure, but I'll try), sci_fi_shipper mentions above that they jump in and out of the triangle and that got me thinking. A lot of the time, yeah, they had all 3 parts in theory - not practice. And other times, I can't pinpoint where the wheels left the track, but it would maybe be more accurate to remove them from the triangle entirely. *sigh*

I mean, sure, epic pilot love is epic. And, for the purposes of today's discussion, Consummate. But, man were they dysfunctional?! The more I think about them, the more I realize that, yeah, as others have said, they had all 3 elements. And yet they couldn't get their acts together. Which is probably why I'm still hanging around, right clicking images at Wikipedia and hosting DPPs. :)

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

Which is probably why I'm still hanging around, right clicking images at Wikipedia and hosting DPPs. :)

LOL. SSWA.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... I'm just going to make a chart and leave that as my comment. Ta da!
(http://s931.photobucket.com/albums/ad159/kag523/BSG/?action=view&current=KaraLeeChart.jpg)

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Venn diagrams for the motherfrakkin' win!

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Here is a psychological evaluation that one can take to find out where one's relationship lies in the Sternberg Triangle. Anyone care to come up with a scores for Kara and Lee? One quiz per pilot.

Scale 1-9 (1=Not At All.....5=Moderately.....9=Extremely)

Max score for each section = 135

Go Here: Scale of Love (http://psychcentral.com/lib/2007/sternbergs-triangular-theory-of-love-scales/)

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Hi everyone ~ I've been out of town for a few weeks so I'm looking forward to catching up on everyone's great discussions! This is quite an interesting question today ~ I don't have a lot to add, except that I would have to raise the commitment issue once again, in order to say this:

I do think they had problems committing to each other romantically. Commitment to me includes what they were willing to show to each other and to the outside world of their shared feelings, and it seems to me that they were able to show friendship and professional support far more easily than romantic love (UST, yes, but UST is usually what happens *before* commitment or after break-ups, but in a working relationship the unresolved elements are hopefully being resolved.)

But I think you would need a couple of new charts attached to explain their romantic commitment hang-ups, because those had less to do with their relationship than with their own individual traumas. Kara absolutely trusted Lee with her heart, soul, and body, but after Zak she didn't trust herself or her gods with the people she truly loved. She was convinced that in reaching for everything she would lose it all, and Lee feared the same thing (in a less extreme way), so I think at key moments they both consciously decided to settle for less. Theirs is a relationship that had all three elements from a fairly early stage, and should naturally have fallen into the Consummate Love triangle, but I think Kara made some deliberate deflection choices early on (Baltar, Sam, New Caprica) to actively try to keep Lee and herself at a lower, presumably safer, level. Lee aided and abetted by drifting into relationships that he knew full well were not fulfilling ones. For Kara, it wasn't so much a commitment issue as a symptom of self-loathing. She trusted him, but tried to protect him from herself.

So I actually think that much of their dysfunction came from the fact that they *had* all three elements going for them and they were trying to artificially stop the kind of relationship that those elements create. But they couldn't stop it, consummate love was inevitably growing out of them. They just thoroughly messed themselves up by trying to make it stop. Is that a commitment issue? For Lee more than Kara, I think. He was slower than she was to realize his feelings, he was better at lying to himself and his significant others than she was (did she ever lie to Sam, that we know of?), and after a few bitter failures he had trouble trusting her in a romantic relationship.

Much of this, of course, was resolved in the last season. Kara was doing a little better with her self-loathing problems (Islanded was the real turning point for her, I think), and Lee absolutely trusted her and I think both were open to a romantic relationship that would not have to be hidden from each other or the outside world. But in Season Four that last element of commitment, "the decision to remain with another, and in the long term, the shared achievements and plans made with that other," was just not theirs to choose. In order to do their jobs and protect the human race as best they could (a shared goal that had always been at the heart of their intimacy), Kara had to go off chasing Earth song and Lee had to live on the Good Ship Politics. They followed the calls of duty, they took care of the people in most need around them (Bill, Roslin, Sam), and they waited for the moment when they could be together without betraying anyone or anything else. They were ready, but they didn't get the chance they deserved.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Hey Rach,

Welcome back! I really missed your input and articulate arguments these last few weeks. It's good to know everything is OK with you.

Loved your analysis. You explained so much better than me.:D

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I also think theirs would be consummate love. All the elements are there. The only thing preventing them from fully experiencing it is their fear of it. That made the relationship unstable and they tried to tame it by limiting it to either just Liking (their friendship pre-mini) or Companionate Love (their working relationship, a brothers-in-arms kind of thing) or Infatuation (the near frak on the table, the Scar scene, the attempt at an affair). However, one or both of them was never really satisfied and these attempts always failed.
I absolutely agree with Taragel you about the commitment. And of course there is no doubt about the passion. Strangely, I think the thing they truly struggled with was the intimacy. Surely, they had "feelings of closeness, connectedness, and bondedness." But they only existed on a very primal level (I'm not sure this the best word to describe it). What I mean is that they were close and there was an almost instinctive connection but they seemed absolutelely uncapable of consciously, deliberatly opening up to each other.

I really liked the Scale of Love link sci_fi_shipper suggested and, although I didn't come up with scores for Kara and Lee (Sorry.), I found it very interesting that the ones where I believe they would get the lowest scores would be the ones related to intimacy.

Very interesting topic, by the way. ;p

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

Yeah, they did have some intimacy issues along with the crippling fear of their consummate love. Oh, pilots...

[utenatai.livejournal.com]

Vaguely related, I was listening to this on the radio this morning:

Click: That Magical Instant Connection Explained" (http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=127836134)

and couldn't help but think of pilots! They definitely have that 'click.'

[nazkey.livejournal.com]

I definitely think that they are ultimately smack dab inside the triangle. Key word here being "ultimately." At any given time, they skirt the outsides, but inevitably, the sum total of their relationship is definitely inside the triangle.

Great way to start the week girl!

[baciami2.livejournal.com]

Late to the dance here, but v v intriguing post, Amy. One of the many aspects I love about pilots! and their fandom is all the many new things I learn. I had vaguely heard of Sternberg before but not in depth. WowWowWow, can't wait to bring this up to the BFFs.

As for Kara and Lee, I think they had all three parts of the triangle but not at the same time with the exception of their one night on New Caprica. For the brief time of a shooting star, they had their friendship/intimacy, their lovemaking/ passion, and their commitment/ I-tell-Dee-you-tell-Sam. I also think that when Kara blew up their relationship the next month, thereby sacrificing all three elements to their relationship, that they both languished in different ways. Clearly Lee was miserable - just look at him - and Kara, in our brief view of her pre-Leoben Dollhouse, seemed to be just existing with Sam - look at her body language walking down to the pyramid court to find a sick Sam.

Ironically, after Kara returned from the Demetrius arc, she seemed to vocalize more about a future with Lee. She was there teasing him "hello Mr Prez" and "we'll walk those halls together." During the mutiny arc, "it's just you and me from now on." I can't blame Lee for his response - frakkin writers - but our darling girl seemed to be indicating more of a future for them than he vocalized, that I can recall.

Again, great topic Amy!