DPP: Kara vs. Lee

[cynicalshadows.livejournal.com]

Even though we are all pilot shippers, everyone naturally gravitates to one of the pair over the other. Sometimes the bias is obvious, and sometimes it is subtle, but we all have one. Thus, when issues between Kara and Lee arise, we're more likely to interpret the actions through the lens of whose 'team' we are on.

Take this infamous scene:



Who is more to blame here? Is it Lee for demanding too much, too fast? Or is it Kara for being incredibly cruel?

What's that you say? They're both at fault? How observant you are! It does take two to tango and almost every pilot confrontation involves some degree of fault on both sides. For today thought, let's just ignore that logical and mature reasoning because the pilots we love certainly do.

So go ahead. Be petty. Pick sides.




Lee wants to know why Kara slept with Baltar.
Kara wants to know why Lee is making it such a big deal. 



Kara insists she just wants a good lay to get over her 'dead' guy.
Lee insists her real problem is that she can't get over the living ones. 



Kara won't divorce.
Lee won't cheat.



Kara wants to know if Lee will still leave Dee if she leaves Sam.
Lee wants to know how he can be assured that Kara won't back out again.  

Comments

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

Kara. Always. Yes, even on New Caprica. It doesn't have to be logical. It just is. I watched the show from her perspective, and while I certainly see her mistakes (you can hardly see from her view without seeing her faults) they don't change the fact that I am 100% crazy about her.

Sorry Lee, but I just don't have as much sympathy for you and your failings. I know it's unfair, but I always want you to step up to the plate.

[latteaddict.livejournal.com]

YES! I ship K/L so hard but Lee never put much effort it did he? He just expected Kara to go all Tracy Flick like Dualla did - look at me, look at me.

man, I should've just said what you did. It's 3am for me and I've been typing the crazy stuff again. *sobs tiredly and goes to bed*

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

You know, I was kind of surprised when I read the comments to this post and they were all taking Lee's side. I was like "where's Latte??" Hehe.

Go get some sleep!

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

(I felt like I had to stay away from this post yesterday to preserve my sanity/faith in K/L. My thanks to you and Latte for carrying the Kara banner. *Hugs*)

[(Anonymous)]

But why couldn't Kara step up to the place? She's even more indecisive than him, so it's an even greater risk for him.
I just don't get why Lee's called on to take initiative, cause he's the guy?
Imo they're both at fault in that respect.

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

It's not because Lee's the guy. It's because I like Kara more. Honestly, there's no deep reason. I just care about her a lot more. Plus, she has a shit ton of issues which influence her every move. Yes, Lee has issues too but A) his canon history is full of retcons, which I take with a grain of salt, and B) Lee only ever seems to act when he has a failsafe and when he doesn't have to follow through. When you get right down to it, I always understand why Kara acts and reacts the way she does, but I don't always have that with Lee. I'm just not in his headspace. I know it's unfair to expect more of him than I do of her, but that's just the way it is. I want him to meet her more than halfway, and he doesn't.

Hey, I did say it wasn't logical.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

Love this comment: "Sorry Lee, but I just don't have as much sympathy for you and your failings. I know it's unfair, but I always want you to step up to the plate."

This sums up so many of my frustrations with Lee. While Kara might be doing things that bug me, at the very least she is choosing to do things... following her (misguided) wants and needs... and generally making her life her own. I love that about her, despite her failings (which make me love her more).

[(Anonymous)]

But apart from that scene TABFAYW she doesn't really do much in respect to Lee, does she?

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

While Kara might be doing things that bug me, at the very least she is choosing to do things... following her (misguided) wants and needs... and generally making her life her own.
Yes. Lee's actions, when it comes to his relationships, seem to be primarily driven by indecision/inaction. Like never making a move until they're both in relationships, and saying he wants her to get a divorce but not doing it himself, and then turning her down when she offers to do exactly what he wanted. Even on New Caprica, what he says to her makes it sound it like this is a whim, like he only just thought of it. And if he can change his mind that quickly while he's with Dee, what's to say he won't do the same while he's with Kara? Now, I don't think he would have, but Kara--whose desire is often matched with fear--must have been wondering that. I guess what it comes down to, for me anyway, is that Kara always feared she wasn't good enough, and Lee never did enough to assure her that he loved her, faults and all.

Basically what Latte said below.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

Word!

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"Even on New Caprica, what he says to her makes it sound it like this is a whim, like he only just thought of it. And if he can change his mind that quickly while he's with Dee, what's to say he won't do the same while he's with Kara?"
We all knew he meant it. She knew he meant it too. Why would she need to go to such lengths (marrying someone else the very next day) to keep him at bay if she didn't believe him? I mean, how could she not? She was there when they first met, she shared all those looks with him, she knew what he and his father had risked to tried to rescue her when she crashed on the moon, she knew his outburst because of Baltar was motivated by jealousy (why else would she apologize, when she didn't really need to?), she was there when he kissed her in front of everyone when she returned from Caprica, the list goes on.

"Kara always feared she wasn't good enough"
That I couldn't agree more. Poor Kara. She is so amazing and so confident about so many things, but not about her self-worth. It is really sad.

"Lee never did enough to assure her that he loved her, faults and all."
I think you are being a little harsh here, because he clearly did .He always forgave her. And he could never say no to her, after all. But I'll give you this, he didn't always need to be so harsh (and judgemental) before he said yes.

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

We all knew he meant it. She knew he meant it too. Why would she need to go to such lengths (marrying someone else the very next day) to keep him at bay if she didn't believe him? I mean, how could she not?
I don't think that Kara really perceives love the same way that Lee does--the same way, maybe, that most people do. I think that in her experience love has always been connected to pain. I don't want to oversimplify things by saying that everything goes back to her mommy issues, but I do believe that a lot of her reactions do. And when you get right down to it, Kara's not a wholly rational personal. She acts on instinct, and her instincts tell her that love is something to be feared. Lee may love her, and she may know that, but she doesn't know if that will be enough. She fears that she'll hurt him or he'll hurt her and doesn't think that she'll get (or deserve) a happy ending. So in UBEX when he says that he's only just realized he loves her, I think his response plays into her fear that it won't last.

I don't mean to be so down on Lee. I'm fond of him, after all. But no, I don't think he did enough to convince her of his love. Why? Because I don't think she was convinced, pure and simple. He didn't convince her that his love would last, or that she deserved his love.

On the other hand, I do think that they achieved this in the fourth season, but that's a whole different issue...

I want to reiterate what I said before, that my responses, like Kara's, are not always logical. The fact is my love for her far exceeds my love for Lee. I'm not objective, and I will always pick her side. Doesn't mean I can't see Lee's (or your) perspective.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"her instincts tell her that love is something to be feared. Lee may love her, and she may know that, but she doesn't know if that will be enough. She fears that she'll hurt him or he'll hurt her and doesn't think that she'll get (or deserve) a happy ending"

I totally agree. I think that is the real issue here.


"So in UBEX when he says that he's only just realized he loves her, I think his response plays into her fear that it won't last."

Here is the part, we don't see eye to eye. I believe her fears were so ingrained, nothing he could have said then, would have made any difference. Unfortunately for them both, she had to deal with her issues on her own before she was ever ready to take the leap of faith giving yourself up to someone else represents. The fact that Lee decide to get married after he had consciously realized (and proclaimed) that he loved someone else is proof he had his own issues to deal with as well. In other words, both of them had to become more mature before their relationship stood a chance.

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

nothing he could have said then, would have made any difference
Fair enough. You're probably right that Kara would have run no matter what Lee had said then. But I still can't help wishing he'd come up with something better than that line. Like I said: not logical!

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I agree about her fears being so ingrained that one night of sex could in no way convince her that she should drop everything she's had with Sam and take the risk. My shipper hearts wants it to happen, but it's too dangerous.

I don't think she needed to go and marry Sam, though. Couldn't she just say, "Hey Lee, let's slow it down, okay?"

Frakking RDM and his shocking shock value stunts. *shakes fist*

:D

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Yes, that is why I was so angry with her and totally understand why Lee would feel so hurt then.
On the other hand, it was really weak of him to decide to marry Dee after that. Was it payback or something? Really mature!! I could almost understand him keep dating Dee, but to marry her?!?

Bottom line - they had both to grow up, emotionally speaking, before they could get together for good.