DPP: Kara vs. Lee

[cynicalshadows.livejournal.com]

Even though we are all pilot shippers, everyone naturally gravitates to one of the pair over the other. Sometimes the bias is obvious, and sometimes it is subtle, but we all have one. Thus, when issues between Kara and Lee arise, we're more likely to interpret the actions through the lens of whose 'team' we are on.

Take this infamous scene:



Who is more to blame here? Is it Lee for demanding too much, too fast? Or is it Kara for being incredibly cruel?

What's that you say? They're both at fault? How observant you are! It does take two to tango and almost every pilot confrontation involves some degree of fault on both sides. For today thought, let's just ignore that logical and mature reasoning because the pilots we love certainly do.

So go ahead. Be petty. Pick sides.




Lee wants to know why Kara slept with Baltar.
Kara wants to know why Lee is making it such a big deal. 



Kara insists she just wants a good lay to get over her 'dead' guy.
Lee insists her real problem is that she can't get over the living ones. 



Kara won't divorce.
Lee won't cheat.



Kara wants to know if Lee will still leave Dee if she leaves Sam.
Lee wants to know how he can be assured that Kara won't back out again.  

Comments

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

Generally speaking I am mostly with Lee, but I can't really blame Kara for her choices :)

I think Lee was wrong when he asked Kara why she slept with Baltar (even though I understand his reasons) and I think he should have said yes when Kara asked about leaving Dee. I think he should have fought more, but...Lee was broken and didn't trust Kara...I can't really blame him for this.

One more scene: after Sacrifice, when they confronted about Lee being shot, I hated how care dropped the issue. She should have said something.

Awww pilots!

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

I think I'm with Lee on almost every single one of these. While I understand Kara's motivations and fears and issues in each of these scenes... well she's not exactly the best decision-maker when it comes to emotional things and kind of brings it on herself.

And let's face it, pretty much every single one of these fights revolve around something Kara's done, and Lee's the one stuck with the emotional whiplash from getting jerked around. I think in almost every single one of these things the "What the hell just happened?" question can be applied to something in his thought process.

[dramaturgca.livejournal.com]

I'm with Lee in UB, though I totally get why she did it. Absolutely with Kara in KLG. It is none of his business who she sleeps with and he could've interrupted her dances with Baltar.
After that... I guess I'm slightly more with Lee on Scar, though I think he could've handled it differently and ended up with her.
They're pretty equally screwed in Eye of Jupiter, though his problem is more insurmountable than hers. I have occasionally wondered, since her issue with divorce is religious and his with cheating is moral, why he doesn't divorce, since she's willing to cheat. And then they're together.
In the last one, I understand his reticence, he's been burned but good, but... she's offering. I think he should've said yes. The fact that she was even willing to make the offer says a lot about her personal growth.
But that's just me...

[antismiles.livejournal.com]

Oh Kara. We really are overdue for a talk about how much I'd love to kick your ass.

(I will hopefully be back tomorrow to discuss (frakking RL) these scenes. It will be a lovely distraction.)

[somethingusual.livejournal.com]

Kara made some truly terrible decisions so I must say I'm on Lee's side. It's odd because I probably like Kara more as a character. I guess all the issues/terrible decision making makes her more fun to watch.

[(Anonymous)]

I identify with Lee mostly, I somehow get where he's coming from much more easily than with Kara.
Having said that I do think he acted horribly on more than one occasion (the Baltar incident primarily comes to mind) towards Kara and towards Dee too. But I still understand and sympathise more with him.

[olaf47.livejournal.com]

Kara Thrace is the center of the universe. But that doesn't mean she isn't the one in the wrong most of the time.

Re: Sam -- Kara Kara Kara. Asking you to leave someone after you have sex with someone else and scream to the heavens that you love them = not asking too much.

Re: Baltar -- Kara may be at fault for actually sleeping with him, but Lee's at fault for asking her about it, at least he is if he's going to keep up the "you're just a pilot and I'm just a CAG." If he wants to pull up his big girl panties and actually say something about them, I'm more on his side.

Re: Scar -- Voila! Lee has put on his big girl panties. Thus, I am completely on his side in this. Kara is scared, maybe a little in love with Sam, maybe she just wants to be, and a lot in love with Lee, which is mostly what scares her. She's running.

Re: EOJ -- Until they give a better explanation for this: the writers.

[narya86.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm really on Lee's side most of the time. Kara's choices sometimes just seem so... irrational. Marrying Sam right after that night with Lee? I mean, WTF? Of course Lee isn't without his faults. But in those I'd mostly take his.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Agreed. :)

[utenatai.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on most of these!

I'll be hoenst, I can't blame Lee for not jumping at her question at the end of EOJ. He's been burned here SO many times.

[eternal-nomad1.livejournal.com]

I think it was UB that finally turned me from a Kara fan into a Lee fan. I get why she did it, I do, but ultimately it was selfish and cruel beyond words.

I am with Kara on KLG and Lee in Scar and EOJ. TAB and everything after it was just fubar by the writers.

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

Kara. Always. Yes, even on New Caprica. It doesn't have to be logical. It just is. I watched the show from her perspective, and while I certainly see her mistakes (you can hardly see from her view without seeing her faults) they don't change the fact that I am 100% crazy about her.

Sorry Lee, but I just don't have as much sympathy for you and your failings. I know it's unfair, but I always want you to step up to the plate.

part 1

[latteaddict.livejournal.com]

*haha* If I have to choose I actually have mixed answers, Kara's at fault in UB, Lee in KLG, Kara in Scar, Kara in EoJ and Lee in TaB. But because I'm such a Kara fangirl I can spin every situation in Kara's favour.

UBEX - (it's all the extra material that gives Kara the edge). UBEX is all about context. Kara witnesses the super love-joy of Lee/Dee on the dance floor. Lee tells Kara Dee's off packing, so Kara knows they're moving in together. When Lee randomly decides it's now or never for him and Kara he starts by asking her a question. If she isn't with Sam because she loves him and is planning to marry him, then what's the point? Turn that exact same question back on Lee and Kara has her answer - Lee's with Dee because he loves her and eventually plans to marry her. After all, the happy boring couple were hours away from a defacto marriage. Then Lee admits he was aware he could upset her apple-cart any time he wanted to. So Kara might wonder why didn't he want to sooner? Kara's unsure if Lee really, really wants her and he admits he does but he just never knew it until just that moment. Kara naturally assumes his reticence was because of Zak but Lee shrugs that off and tells her it's because of a lot of reasons. I imagine Kara stretched her imagination figuring out what all those reasons could be. And then when she feels safer in throwing her lot in with Sam the first thing Lee does is marry the woman he was originally setting his life up with, which in Kara's warped brain probably just proved she made the right decision. Kara's the woman you sleep with in the dirt and never admit to a soul you have feelings for and Dee's the little lady you parade around on your arm bursting with pride. *spin*

KBLG - Easy. I know we don't technically know what happened between the dance floor and Kara sleeping with Baltar but from the start when Lee teased Kara about her hygiene he was a cocky son of a bitch and Kara completely went out of her way to make him see her as a woman. Lee couldn't even complement her right and Kara had to ask him to ask her to dance. Kara made it so easy for him, all Lee had to do was take her up on her offer. Her 'leegasm' certainly proves Lee was the only man she wanted in her bed. Lee's casual ease the next days proves he had no regrets about how his night ended (Kara-free) but suddenly turns into a jealous husband the moment he finds out about Baltar. The fact he'd been keeping a mental list of Kara's exploits only exposed Lee's hypocrisy further. Apparently he didn't want her but no one else could have her either. Kara even apologised and Lee basically said he didn't care if she lived or died. *no spinning required*

Scar - This ones easy too. There are several factors at play here. Racetrack used to courier Lee over to his long term hooker girlfriend, therefore I'd say it was common knowledge the pilots knew Lee was 'in a relationship.' Kara and Lee drink their woes away and when Kara says they should get what they can right now, Lee agrees with her. So in Kara's mind when Lee agrees to sex he's doing it knowing it was about living in the moment and that he had in no way been pining for her because of all the intercourse he'd been having with his 'girlfriend.' That's not even adding the public flirtations with Dualla during the very public workout/training sessions. Kara wasn't offering to have his babies, she was asking a man who was already playing the field to make her forget for an hour. And technically it was Lee who stopped the sexing, not Kara. I can't really fanwank her little speech about there being nothing between them (because there TOTALLY WAS) but if Lee can get away with saying he never knew he loved/wanted Kara until New Caprica with a straight face then Kara can get away with her blatant denial of truth too. *spins from around the corner*

part 2

[latteaddict.livejournal.com]

EoJ - What dramaturgca said - "since her issue with divorce is religious and his with cheating is moral, why he doesn't divorce, since she's willing to cheat. And then they're together." I'd also like to add that despite the words coming out of both their mouths, Kara was actually being more faithful to Lee than he to her. Sam made a comment about how he never sees Kara anymore (I assume since L/K made up after the boxing match). But Leland was tucked safely in his marital bed every single night during the 'affair.' He and Dee never separated. Kara might not have wanted an actual divorce but she was all Lee's. Lee was the one having his cake and eating it too. Probably got it on with Dee a bit more to assuage his guilt. *twirly spin of truth*

TaB - Lee's reaction to Kara's offer just proves he never really forgave her for New Cap. Which is his right but then why was he asking her to divorce Sam just the week or two before? I'm inclined to think he would never have gone through with it. The extended scene sheds much more light. Kara admitted she married the wrong guy and Lee basically ripped her a new one and was appalled at her even suggesting he leave Dualla. That was Lee's last chance to be with Kara because she was dead soon after that. *too sad to do a full spin*

[latteaddict.livejournal.com]

YES! I ship K/L so hard but Lee never put much effort it did he? He just expected Kara to go all Tracy Flick like Dualla did - look at me, look at me.

man, I should've just said what you did. It's 3am for me and I've been typing the crazy stuff again. *sobs tiredly and goes to bed*

[(Anonymous)]

I think if he's dvorced but sleeping with a married woman that's still a moral problem, but that's just me.
Mostly agree with the rest.

[(Anonymous)]

But why couldn't Kara step up to the place? She's even more indecisive than him, so it's an even greater risk for him.
I just don't get why Lee's called on to take initiative, cause he's the guy?
Imo they're both at fault in that respect.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I like your reasoning. I think these are probably all my answers too.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

You made me laugh out loud with this post!

I actually agree with the comment "Kara Thrace is the center of the universe. But that doesn't mean she isn't the one in the wrong most of the time."

Somehow her behavior, even with the negative tendencies, are excusable because at the very least she is DOING something, not just thinking about doing something. I don't necessarily agree, but I can forgive her for her decisions.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

Love this comment: "Sorry Lee, but I just don't have as much sympathy for you and your failings. I know it's unfair, but I always want you to step up to the plate."

This sums up so many of my frustrations with Lee. While Kara might be doing things that bug me, at the very least she is choosing to do things... following her (misguided) wants and needs... and generally making her life her own. I love that about her, despite her failings (which make me love her more).

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

You know, I was kind of surprised when I read the comments to this post and they were all taking Lee's side. I was like "where's Latte??" Hehe.

Go get some sleep!

Re: part 1

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I don't have time to respond to everything (as I'm - in theory at least - working) but I simply adore this line:

"if Lee can get away with saying he never knew he loved/wanted Kara until New Caprica with a straight face then Kara can get away with her blatant denial of truth too"

This fits so many of my frustrations with those scenes, but in particular with Lee. And I'm going to add in a tiny rant here, and that is the infamous "Is this about Zak" question that Kara asks, and Lee's agreement that it does.

AAAARRRGGGHGHHH!!!! Now, I may ship Lee / Kara from here to eternity, but even I would have had issues with that response. (Not saying I'd run away mind you... but it would bug me.) Okay, gotta work now.

[(Anonymous)]

But apart from that scene TABFAYW she doesn't really do much in respect to Lee, does she?

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

It's not because Lee's the guy. It's because I like Kara more. Honestly, there's no deep reason. I just care about her a lot more. Plus, she has a shit ton of issues which influence her every move. Yes, Lee has issues too but A) his canon history is full of retcons, which I take with a grain of salt, and B) Lee only ever seems to act when he has a failsafe and when he doesn't have to follow through. When you get right down to it, I always understand why Kara acts and reacts the way she does, but I don't always have that with Lee. I'm just not in his headspace. I know it's unfair to expect more of him than I do of her, but that's just the way it is. I want him to meet her more than halfway, and he doesn't.

Hey, I did say it wasn't logical.

[shah-of-blah.livejournal.com]

While Kara might be doing things that bug me, at the very least she is choosing to do things... following her (misguided) wants and needs... and generally making her life her own.
Yes. Lee's actions, when it comes to his relationships, seem to be primarily driven by indecision/inaction. Like never making a move until they're both in relationships, and saying he wants her to get a divorce but not doing it himself, and then turning her down when she offers to do exactly what he wanted. Even on New Caprica, what he says to her makes it sound it like this is a whim, like he only just thought of it. And if he can change his mind that quickly while he's with Dee, what's to say he won't do the same while he's with Kara? Now, I don't think he would have, but Kara--whose desire is often matched with fear--must have been wondering that. I guess what it comes down to, for me anyway, is that Kara always feared she wasn't good enough, and Lee never did enough to assure her that he loved her, faults and all.

Basically what Latte said below.