DPP: In the End

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I thought maybe today we could talk about the evolution of things. From start to finish, what do you think of these characters and this relationship now that you've digested the whole show? Have your views of the characters both individually and together changed from when you first started watching/first entered fandom?

A lot of fans from the early days of the show stopped watching because they were let down too many times by the narrative. But those who stuck it out tend to try to define the places where things changed definitively for them. Some people say their personal canon stops after a certain episode (maybe Maelstrom, maybe Unfinished Business, maybe Lay Down Your Burdens, maybe even sooner)? I think, for me, I adored their relationship in S1 and early S2, but I love their journey in Season 4.0/4.5 the best. They didn't have nearly as many moments as they should have, but what they did share was beautiful--every moment was about growing and supporting each other both emotionally and physically. (My one exception is Daybreak Part 2, so I guess my personal canon ends their journey at Islanded... or maybe Daybreak Part 1, since that has the scene where they are revealing the mission to everyone together, finishing each others' sentences.) 

The words in the banner above are from the song "All We Are" by Matt Nathanson. The lyrics talk about love wasted, believing that the simple must be hard, and dreams that scatter and fall like (nothing but the) rain in the end. It is my end-of-story song for pilots and was even before I saw the finale. That resolution was not what I wanted for them (I still and will always believe their story required a happy ending to come properly full circle) and I can't fathom fanwanking it or pretending they meant the hollow words they spoke to each other or ignoring the painful expressions on their faces. But I can believe in this song which says in the end, all the mistakes and missteps didn't matter, because from start to finish, the brig to the memory wall, the love was always there.

I think I've strayed from the point in all this, which was to ask how our feelings about this ship changed or didn't with the conclusion of their story. My answer is that I love them possibly more because I will always feel the injustice of that ending. Maybe if I loved the ending I wouldn't be as interested in them still. I don't know.  I've always loved Kara and that has never changed. I didn't always love Lee and that has totally changed (s4.0 is my favorite Lee in fact). I love them together more now, as I have this overwhelming protective instinct towards this relationship that makes me want to write fic and natter on and just attempt to fix the ingregious injustice any way I can.

So what's your answers?

Comments

[acsgrlie.livejournal.com]

I loved them in Season 1 and 2 as they danced around each other and their angst-ridden relationship grew and they had more UST than ever. I really felt like after UB they had a chance and it killed me that when one said yes the other said no in back-to-back episodes.
I agree that they didn't get nearly as many scenes as they should've had together in 4.0 and 4.5 but I think their scene in "Island" describes their relationship the best at that point after all they've been through "I'm Lee. You're Kara. The rest isn't worth a damn."
I always felt like they should be together since the miniseries and as I kept watching that feeling grew stronger and stronger. UB will always be my most favorite episode ever and I guess my personal canon stops at Island because after everything he didn't care and was ready to accept for whoever/whatever she was.
As to how my feelings have changed due to the conclusion, I will always believe that Lee and Kara were meant to be together and maybe it's just me but I felt like my determination for them to be together was fueled by the crappy ending they got. There will always be a feeling of "what if" and it is a bit harder now to rewatch and feel the amazing chemistry they had knowing what their ending is.

[enots.livejournal.com]

I'm with you. For me, their end was with Islanded. And that comforts me: thinking about what they said, what was shared.

Its been some time since I last watched the finale but in my memory, its like a different show. Different characters. And that was the most disappointing thing about it. Like, each writer had their own idea of what Kara and Lee meant - individually and together - and it was never synthesised. What a waste.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I love S1 and S2 Starbuck and Apollo. I love them as individuals because they're tough and snarky and hot. They break a lot of stereotypes and blast their way through the universe saving the fleet as they go along. In S1/2, I always think of the angst and the hot and the almost-secksing, but I never picture them "together" as in an actual relationship. Kara can't commit, Lee seems to be okay being friends (!) and the two of them seem to fight more than anything else.

S3 is when I see them starting to be more well-rounded characters that might actually have a shot at a relationship. Lee got to that place first, but Kara just wasn't ready. After UB, I started to think it might just work for them. Of course, her death frakked that all up.

In S4+ I loved loved loved Lee (and Kara). Kara was harder for me because she'd changed so-o-o much from Starbuck. Lee's transition made more sense to me than hers. We've talked about her character's transitions many times, so I'll just leave it at that. But the two of them in S4+ are mature, relatively settled, and calm. They each seem able to express their love more openly and without reservation. Maybe it was because they were not in a romantic relationship, I don't know, but something allowed them to just love each other. Even if the writer's suddenly made K/S OTP, it did not diminish their love.

The end of the series for me comes when Lee and Kara watch Bill and Laura fly away in the raptor. She doesn't poof. They just hold hands and the rest of the story continues.

Writing this makes me miss them so much. *cries*

[entaiaime.livejournal.com]

In S4+ I loved loved loved Lee (and Kara). Kara was harder for me because she'd changed so-o-o much from Starbuck. Lee's transition made more sense to me than hers.

I completely agree. I love the Lee of S4+. He really chooses to love Kara unconditionally and trusts her completely. I just wish they could have given them the ending that they deserved.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

It's hard for me to separate the seasons out, as I watched the entire series in three weeks, and then purchased it and re-watched it, as I worked my way through a rewrite of the ending. As many have noted, that last scene in the field felt like it was from a different show entirely... hence my entrance into fanfiction in general. There are a couple thoughts, however, that stick with me.

First, I completely agree with taragel's comment that they "required a happy ending". I don't mean the sappy fall-on-on-knee-and-propose type; I mean the "we made it this far... frakked it all up... lived through the worst of all possible times... did awful things to each other and everyone around us... but we are still here together nonetheless". That's a kind of connection few people get in a lifetime. To get to that point where nothing else matters. To actually CHANGE things.

Was it just me, or wasn't that one of the overwhelming themes of the show?... that you had a destiny, but you could make CHOICES. I guess for me, the idea of that last scene with Lee / Kara was so "out there" that I had to 'read' it as a premonition, not reality. I don't believe in deus ex machina endings. They are cheap. They are easy. And I don't believe that the millions of BSG fans out there deserved that slap-dash fix up that left so much hanging. (Side note: when we watched it, my husband actually turned to me and commented "well I guess they ran out of time." As good an explanation as I've heard for the ending. And I say this fully admitting that this is, bar none, my fave show of all time.)

Second thought, on the pilots. I personally enjoy Kara from the beginning; her wild cockiness does such a great job breaking down the stereotypes of classic female casting (whereas Dee, one of my least favorite characters who I will NEVER write about, fits the stereotypical "support your man" female role we expect). I can appreciate Kara's change through the show, and I found it a very believable transition, given the experiences she'd had. I loved her even more by the end. She was this powerful woman in charge of her destiny (*insert rant about ending here*) and able to make her life what she wanted DESPITE what she'd been through.

Lee, on the other hand, wasn't my favorite at the beginning BECAUSE he fit the stereotype of the viper jock, though the sexual tension was fabulous and you only need to LOOK at him to understand why he got a cult following from the mini onward. It is interesting that for me, the Lee's transition (which sometimes gets glossed over when compared to Kara's) was equally memorable. He comes out from the shadow of his father. He gets to a place where he can accept Kara for who she actually is - despite the jagged edges and dark secrets. And he is unbelievably supportive of her journey. In my rewrite of the end (*again, insert rant about final scene*) I've given Lee a key role, since I think the idea that HE had a choice in his destiny too, tends to get lost in the focus on Kara and her special destiny.

And now I need to get back to my own writing, as I had a pile of messages this morning warning me that I'd better be watching out for Lee too! LOL

Exciting topic taragel! I'll be popping by today to check out other people's thoughts.

K :>)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I love your commentary. I can't wait to get to your fic. *hugs*

[entaiaime.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with taragel's comment that they "required a happy ending". I don't mean the sappy fall-on-on-knee-and-propose type; I mean the "we made it this far... frakked it all up... lived through the worst of all possible times... did awful things to each other and everyone around us... but we are still here together nonetheless". That's a kind of connection few people get in a lifetime. To get to that point where nothing else matters. To actually CHANGE things.

This!! Your fic After The End is my favorite finale fic and it's my personal canon now. It made the ending actually make sense without taking anything out. I completely agree with you about the choices the characters make is what makes the story great. The writers put it all on destiny and tried to tie it up with a nice bow and it doesn't work like that for Kara and Lee. You are a beautiful writer. Thanks for this post.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

WOW! Thank you! I am overwhelmed by the comment, and not sure what to say other than I honestly believe that is how the series needed to end... That it is now YOUR personal canon too, is the highest possible level of compliment.

Thank you! K :>)

[entaiaime.livejournal.com]

OMG. I can't tell you how much I loved it. "Nothin' but the rain, sir. Now you're supposed to say 'Grab your gun and bring in the cat.'" Ahhh! My eyes are tearing up thinking about that.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

One of my fave lines too. I think that I spent more time on that last "epilogue" scene than any other chapter.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"I completely agree with taragel's comment that they "required a happy ending"

Me, too. I would have been able to accept an "unhappy ending" (even the "poof", I guess), if they had had some sort of happy "middle" or at least more of a closure at some point.

"Was it just me, or wasn't that one of the overwhelming themes of the show?... that you had a destiny, but you could make CHOICES."

That is so true. And after they decided to go with the death/angle plotline, Kara didn't seem to have much choice anymore. She certainly didn't choose to leave Lee behind in the end. In fact, this plotline is one I try to ignore as much as possible because , no matter how hard I try to come to terms with it, I just can't.

"And now I need to get back to my own writing, as I had a pile of messages this morning warning me that I'd better be watching out for Lee too! LOL"
Definetely. After all, you have us all spoiled now with the daily updates. ;D

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I'm not the only one frustrated by the "choice" issue. Your commentary just solidifies my own feelings. Argh!

RE: Daily Updates. Three fantabulous new chapters await my husband's super-betaing skills. Posting in a few hours.

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

Wow, you know, I'm not really sure how to put all my feelings on the matter into words. I've tried to pick the end of my personal canon many many times because of how upsetting I find the finale, and have most often said it's Maelstrom because killing off Kara was unforgivable and ultimately proved to be absolutely pointless and needlessly painful. Yet I can never really let those great S4 moments go because the (rare) ones they had before that last one were indeed brilliant. My love for Kara/Lee, Kara, and Lee was fierce from the beginning. That never changed and I know now, after the worst has happened, that it never will. Even if I move on to another fandom and another 'ship, I still think I'll always find them two of the most compelling characters ever, apart and especially together. The ending they got is irrelevant to me in that regard.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Even if I move on to another fandom and another 'ship, I still think I'll always find them two of the most compelling characters ever, apart and especially together. The ending they got is irrelevant to me in that regard.

In the end, THIS. Yes, simply, this. *hugs you*

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

*hugs you back*

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I love that comment that "the ending they got is irrelevant". Makes me feel somehow better about the entire thing. Great thoughts!

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

Thanks, I'm glad it helps. :)

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"Even if I move on to another fandom and another 'ship, I still think I'll always find them two of the most compelling characters ever, apart and especially together. The ending they got is irrelevant to me in that regard."

Very well put. I couldn't agree more.

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

Thanks for letting me know. I just can't let that ending sully the rest of their journey for me. Can't.

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

The ending they got is irrelevant to me in that regard.

So Say We All!

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

*slowclaps* ;)

[entaiaime.livejournal.com]

I've tried to pick the end of my personal canon many many times because of how upsetting I find the finale, and have most often said it's Maelstrom because killing off Kara was unforgivable and ultimately proved to be absolutely pointless and needlessly painful. Yet I can never really let those great S4 moments go because the (rare) ones they had before that last one were indeed brilliant.

I agree about the fact that killing Kara off was unforgivable and pointless. I love the journey that Lee takes after it though. The "clinging to a spinning bed" image comes to mind. I love the S4 K/L scenes.

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

I liked what they did with Lee too, though I do wish they'd done even more. Agreed about the K/L scenes (at least up until the end). They're lovely.

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

I love them possibly more because I will always feel the injustice of that ending. Maybe if I loved the ending I wouldn't be as interested in them still.

I feel a bit of this, myself. I wonder if I'd have been able to let it go and move away if there'd been a payoff of some sort at the end.

I loved S1 and 2, and was able to go with the story in 3. In Season 4, Kara stopped being Kara. I loved what they seemed to be trying to do with Lee, but they never really made it happen, for which I am resentful, and I hated what they did to Kara. I see what you mean about loving their interaction during S4/4.5, but for me... I guess looking back it feels less significant than it did at the time because it didn't go anywhere. There was no story arch. Or rather, there was, but it was aborted then retconned to the point of being unrecognizable. Don't get me wrong, I still treasure those moments, because I think they're among the few glimpses we get a true glimpse of Pilots in that season, but I don't adore them the way I do earlier moments.

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

The one thing that I adore about pilots is that they are ever changing. When we were first introduced to them, they were the viper jocks. They were Starbuck and Apollo. The two of them could take on the world and would come out on top. Then slowly we got to know the people behind the warriors. They were messed up in all kinds of way but we couldn’t help but love them. In the early seasons, there were closed off from each other, they hid behind the banter, the jokes and were perfecting the dance they did around each other.

In season 3, they were growing up; even as young as they were they were veterans of a war; had seen too much. At this point, they had learned to depend on each other but still weren’t willing to risk their heart for each other but that was slowly changing. And finally it did change, they told each other how they truly felt for each other, slowly trying to put the past in the past and learn to live the with scars that it left. By the time we reached Maelstrom, they had come full circle; they started off as friends then lovers then hated each other but before Kara’s death they were once again those two friends who knew that no matter what the other will be there.

After that their individual journeys began. I think Kara and Lee both knew that if they wanted to be together, they first had to make themselves whole and accept the flaws in themselves and accept the other with their flaws. Lee was finally coming out the shadows of William Adama and the military; he was becoming his own man. He knew what he wanted professionally and personally. He accepted Kara for who is she was no matter what, nothing else mattered. Kara started her own journey to find her purpose in her second chance. She found salvation for the human race and herself. She knew that no matter what or who she was, she was okay with herself and so was the one person who loved her. And by accepting who she is, she knew that being loved wasn’t a bad thing.

By the end of the series, Kara and Lee both had grown as individuals and a couple. They believed in themselves and each other. They could share the bad parts of their past without judgment from the other. As much as I hated the finale, I don’t think their journey ended with the poof. Granted that poof should have NEVER happened, call me a romantic fool but I believe Kara is with Lee everyday till his last breath and they will forever be joined in the heavens once again.

I miss them! Excellent topic, Tara!

[kag523.livejournal.com]

*sigh* I just love that comment "I believe Kara is with Lee everyday til his last breath". What a beautiful way of putting it! So true. :>)

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

Thanks dear! Kara wouldn't give up the chance to haunt Lee.:D

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I think I don't have much to add to your post because I pretty much agree with all your points. I marathoned the three first seasons, and even though their relationship was unevenly handled, I was satisfied and hopeful by the end of "Crossroads II". I adored pilots in S1 and S2, I loved their friendship and mutual trust and support (the core of their relationship for me), and of course, I was totally fascinated by their insane chemistry, their potential, and their angst-riddenm dysfunctional dynamic on a romantic level --all in all, they were the perfect encapsulation of so many kinks of mine. It might be an unpopular opinion, but I love their journey in S3 --their loss of innocence in so many ways--, despite all the obvious incongruities and contrivances. UB --Kara and Lee at their highest and lowest-- remains as my favorite episode of any show ever. I love that despite the mess that was their relationship at that point they always kept on forgiving each other and trying. I loved how they rebuilt their friendship after the affair and their maturity in their under the wing conversation in Maelstrom. It never crossed my mind that they loved each other more than it was humanly possible --I never bought any of the alternaships-- and, in all honesty, I always thought they were the endgame. S4 was more difficult for me, mainly because I had so many problems with Kara's characterization. But that was the season where I fell for Lee; I love his transition as a character, the way he became his own man --being Kara's death the catalyst for his change. And I love their story arc throughout S.4.0-4.5, their quiet acceptance of each other and whatever there was between them, being the culmination of their journey was the Memorial Wall scene.

I loved this pairing from the beginning and I agree with you that right now I might love them even more because of the fiasco that was their ending. I cried so much, I shared with all of you my frustration and pain, I've spent so many hours trying to come to terms with their overall journey --both emotionally and intellectually--, and still, their story feels unfinished --and that's probably the reason why it's difficult for me to let them go. I heart them so much, they will forever remain a part of me.

[eugis.livejournal.com]

I loved this pairing from the beginning and I agree with you that right now I might love them even more because of the fiasco that was their ending. I cried so much, I shared with all of you my frustration and pain, I've spent so many hours trying to come to terms with their overall journey --both emotionally and intellectually--, and still, their story feels unfinished --and that's probably the reason why it's difficult for me to let them go. I heart them so much, they will forever remain a part of me.

THIS.

I have nothing to add. You've said it beautifully. :)

[thegreenkitty.livejournal.com]

Yes, THIS. BB, you are too good. It makes me lazy though...when you post exactly what I would've posted. *Note to self: must post my answers prior to reading Cosette's.* ;)

[coffeesuperhero.livejournal.com]

Great questions. Wow. I could probably write a book about this. My feelings on this topic are... multi-layered, to say the least. I'm gonna go think this one out some before I say anything.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

This is such an interesting question. I haven't spent as much time with these characters yet as many of you have, but I remember some moments of transition as I watched the series unfold.

I came into the show prepared to like Lee, because I was already a fan of Jamie. So I watched him attentively throughout the miniseries and enjoyed the Kara/Lee dynamic from the first. I could also see that Katee was a fantastic actress, but I wasn't sure whether I would fall in love with Starbuck or not. I've seen a lot of strong women on various shows over the years, and the one problem that sometimes happened was that the show tried so hard to make them seem cool that they didn't always come across as real human beings. I thought Starbuck was starting off just a little too cool, but I was hoping to see more of her personality, as opposed to her persona, as we went along.

This happened almost immediately. I remember the first time Kara genuinely surprised me: it was in 33, when she was the one to protest the order to destroy the Olympic Carrier. I would have expected that from Lee, not from her, and watching their dynamics in that scene was fascinating. I loved that Lee gave the ship every possible chance - he broke radio silence on his own authority to make sure their warnings got through - but in the end he made the ruthless decision. And Kara wasn't at peace with it, but she fired with him as an act of solidarity. I thought she was cool when she saved his life in the miniseries, but this moment meant more than that. I respected her for understanding what it would mean to him for her to share his responsibility in the midst of such a terrible situation. That's when she felt real to me, and when their relationship felt deeper than banter, angst, and attraction. They stood by each other, for better and for worse.

And Kara continued to feel real throughout the series - she was constantly surprising me. The professional pride she put into her job, even when she pursued it in unorthodox ways ("Yelling at people isn't always the best way to get results, sir. I learned that in Officer Candidate school."); her beautiful friendship with Helo, the fact that she loved her parents so much even though they'd never stopped hurting her. My experience with Kara is summed up in the "Valley of Darkness" scene when Helo looks around her apartment and listens to her music and says "This...is so not you," and yet even as he says that we can all feel how perfectly it all fits her. Kara contained multitudes; almost all of her surprises worked for me.

With Lee, I was ready to beg the writers to *please STOP trying to surprise me!* Lee is who he is; I first really got him as a character at the end of Bastille Day, and every time they allowed his character to be that person, it worked beautifully. He was complicated, interesting, intelligent, angsty, pragmatic and in every sense Kara's equal, and he didn't need dark secrets and surprising plot twists to keep us engaged - his character as established was a flawed hero, and I wanted to watch him be that. I feel like most of the wrong turns for his character were because they were trying to bring something different out of thin air rather than naturally developing the character. A few of Lee's unexpected moments worked for me (I'm actually intrigued by his space walk in RS Part II, and I enjoyed his abusive!mom backstory because it gave me an excuse to psychoanalyze his dysfunctions). But for the most part, I prefer watching Lee realize his potential, which is why I love Season 4-4.5 most of all. Pilots in that season aren't surprising ~ they do exactly what we'd expect them to do: they love each other unstintingly. And it's gorgeous, and good drama, and I wish we'd had more of it before the end.

OK, that's more than enough rambling, but thanks to all of you for sharing your wonderful topics and thoughts!

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

As usual, overall, I can't help but agree with you. I particularly liked this part, though: "They stood by each other, for better and for worse." I'd add to it by saying that they stood by each other especially when things got worse. And that is one of the things I love more about them. After all, it is easy to be there for the happy moments. You really know who your friends are, who really loves you when they stick by you when the going gets tough. With Kara and Lee, it was at the "easy times" that they behaved their worst towards each other, always finding ways to sabotage their relationship. But at the really bad times, that's when they never let the other down. And that's from the very beginning: when Kara risked her life to save him in the mini, when Lee accepted her part in his brother's death (after stopping talking to his father for 2 years because of that), when Kara shot the Olympic Carrier with him, when Lee supported his father against the president in order to keep looking for her when she was lost on the moon - the list goes on till the very end when he promptly accepts her back after her "death" and is the first one to believe in her.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

As usual, I can't help but agree with you, too. Yes, I think they were at their best at the worst moments; they constantly surprised me with their capacity to forgive each other and put their egos aside in order to work with or help each other ~ this from two people who were not normally very temperamentally flexible. And I agree that it's a delight to watch their mutual support from beginning to end. In short, yay!

[kag523.livejournal.com]

So beautifully put! I've got to go find some of your writings somewhere - this is exciting! You've touched on so many of the things that I loved about the show - and never mentioned. So I'm just going to say "ditto". You've really got it! :>)

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much ~ I loved your comment, too, you have a beautiful vision of who Kara and Lee are and how their choices have shaped the people they have become together. I will definitely be reading more of your terrific stories, and I look forward to sharing more thoughts about them with you once I can really sit down and spend more time with them, which I hope will be soon!

I've written very little about Kara and Lee so far - apart from joining in the wonderful conversations of this online community over the last month or so - but if you are ever in the mood to look at my few tiny stories, you can find them on my fanfiction.net profile page:

http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1622517/Rachel_Indeed

Also, I suspect that with your intense writing schedule you may not have too much time to search through a lot of fanfic recs, but if you're interested, a lot of members of this community put together a bunch of recommendations of "essential" Kara/Lee writings - meaning the best of the best - all in one post:

http://community.livejournal.com/no_takebacks/38283.html

I hope you might find some stories that you'd like among their comments.

All best wishes!

[coffeesuperhero.livejournal.com]

Daybreak was a bit of game-changer for me. I don't know how well I can explain this, but I'll give it a go.

Part of me accepts the finale, not as what I wanted or even as something that I think would have happened, but as the finale we got from RDM. I know that it happened, I know that I saw it. I don't like it, but part of me knows that at least as far as RDM is concerned, that is the journey that those characters had, and that's how it ended. To get past my grief, I had to accept that Daybreak happened, and I had to do that on my own terms. rdave1 said above that she believes Kara will be with Lee until his last breath, and to the extent that I know Daybreak happened and tried to come to terms with it on my own, I have to believe that, too. I could not deal with the thought of Lee being alone, or Kara just disappearing. I cried my way through writing this horribly sad post-finale story for Lee, and it was extraordinarily cathartic. I needed to write that so I could get around Daybreak, because I needed to acknowledge what I had seen on my television, but at the same time I needed to try and give Lee and Kara something, some kind of peace, some kind of shared experience, even after the end of the show, but still within the framework that the show had given me. After I wrote that, I felt better about having seen Daybreak. It's not happy, really, and it's not the ending I wanted, but it let me have what I needed: to let Kara be with Lee until his last breath. That was important to me.

All that said, Daybreak changed the way I see everything from Maelstrom onward. I don't like the finale, and if it had been up to little old me, that wouldn't have happened. I love their scene in Islanded, really I do, but I would have given that up in a heartbeat to not have that awful ending for them. The way that Daybreak went down, with the ridiculous vanishing Kara, really made me dislike Maelstrom in a way that I wouldn't have imagined possible before the finale. I had been okay with Maelstrom when I originally viewed it (though I think the only reason I was okay with it in the first place had to do with the fact that I didn't watch it as it aired, but marathoned to catch up in time to watch 4.5 as it aired, and I was spoiled enough going in to know that Kara wasn't gone for good), but after the poof, Maelstrom leaves a very bad taste in my mouth. If Kara's ultimate ending is the poof, I can't have Maelstrom. I can't have Kara just acquiesce to the mystical whims of some capricious third party. Not twice in one show. I just can't. Not okay. Not for Kara, not for Lee, and not for Kara and Lee. After the finale, I can't look at anything after Maelstrom the same way, because Daybreak is hanging over my head like the sword of Damocles. To the extent that I accept Daybreak, I hate Maelstrom; to the extent that I accept Maelstrom, I hate Daybreak. I just can't win.

This leaves me primarily looking to the earlier seasons for my canon K/L fix, these days. Anything before Maelstrom. There are some beautiful moments after Maelstrom, and when I consider them I tend to put my hands over my ears and pretend they happened in a magical timeline where Kara never actually died or subsequently Poofed.

Part of me is able to divorce my feelings for Maelstrom and Daybreak from my feelings for the show and their relationship as a whole, and part of me isn't. It's complicated. It makes me want to do bad Avril Lavigne karaoke while RDM is forced to listen. I don't know.

Bottom line: I still love those two kids, and I love hanging out with other people who love them like I do. Thanks, guys. ♥

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

THIS! Two things:

This leaves me primarily looking to the earlier seasons for my canon K/L fix, these days. Anything before Maelstrom. There are some beautiful moments after Maelstrom, and when I consider them I tend to put my hands over my ears and pretend they happened in a magical timeline where Kara never actually died or subsequently Poofed.

I am also able to deal with either but not both.

Part of me is able to divorce my feelings for Maelstrom and Daybreak from my feelings for the show and their relationship as a whole, and part of me isn't. It's complicated. It makes me want to do bad Avril Lavigne karaoke while RDM is forced to listen. I don't know.

Why'd he have to go and make things so complicated? 8'D

[coffeesuperhero.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I'm not alone in that! I just can't reconcile them, most of the time. Sigh.

Lol, exactly! Making pilots love somebody else makes me frustrated! ;)

[kag523.livejournal.com]

This is so funny, and perfect and touching at the same time. I thought your explanation was fantastic.
Send me a link - I must read your "after daybreak" fic.... and I must read it now!

[coffeesuperhero.livejournal.com]

Thanks, hon. ♥

Let's see. That particular story is here (http://coffeesuperhero.livejournal.com/143936.html). Lords, I cried and cried.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"I can't have Kara just acquiesce to the mystical whims of some capricious third party. Not twice in one show. I just can't. Not okay. Not for Kara, not for Lee, and not for Kara and Lee."

I totally understand. I think BSG became too mystical for my taste after Kara's death and resurrection. But I could go along with it if it had some kind of purpose to it. Something more than "she had to lead them to Earth because that was her destiny all along". You could still get all mystical about it without her having to die or it could have been portraid as "she had a second chance because she had a special destiny". But for her life to be reduced to that without any kind of personal free will or reward or ... I don't know ... something more... I just can't accept it. However, unlike you, I have decided to accept Maeltrom as canon, but in my mind the series ended when Kara and Lee said their goodbyes to Adama and Laura.

[coffeesuperhero.livejournal.com]

You know, I had really liked the mythology and the mysticism in the other seasons, too, but once the Special Destiny stuff kicked in it started to fall apart for me.

I would have liked that as an ending, I think. Better than what we got, for sure.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Without the "choice" factor, the entire series loses its abiding principle that everyone is capable of making their life what they want. If Baltar deserved that chance, Kara most certainly did too!

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

So well said, Erin. I relate like whoa to this part especially:

The way that Daybreak went down, with the ridiculous vanishing Kara, really made me dislike Maelstrom in a way that I wouldn't have imagined possible before the finale. I had been okay with Maelstrom when I originally viewed it (though I think the only reason I was okay with it in the first place had to do with the fact that I didn't watch it as it aired, but marathoned to catch up in time to watch 4.5 as it aired, and I was spoiled enough going in to know that Kara wasn't gone for good), but after the poof, Maelstrom leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

WORD. A thousand times word.

Hey, would you mind if I added you to my friends list? I've been meaning to ask for a while, 'cause I LOVE your brain and want to make sure I catch your posts. :)

[coffeesuperhero.livejournal.com]

Thanks girl!

Friend away! I will add you right back. :D

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

Great, thanks, off to do so now! :)

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

From start to finish, what do you think of these characters and this relationship now that you've digested the whole show? Have your views of the characters both individually and together changed from when you first started watching/first entered fandom?

I'm part of the group of people here that watched the whole series after it had already ended so I haven't had a lot of time to really digest anything. I've been trying to do it now with you guys and it has been amazing to discuss so many aspects of the show with people who love it as much as I do. I have found so many of the analysis presented here so good that even when I'm not able to agree with everything it helps to get a better understanding of the characters and their journey both together and apart.

I love many things about BSG and I loved it till the end (even if I had to ignore certain aspects of it that didn't make a lot of sense to me towards the end). But I like the first two seasons the best.Not only because of our beloved couple but because of the series in general. The topics discussed (fate X free will,family X duty, forgiveness X holding on to past, humans X cylons, individual needs X colective needs, democracy X dictatorship,etc) , their struggle to survive and to rebuild their lives (I loved the "It's not enough to survive. One has to be worthy of surviving" line). When it comes to Lee and Kara, I liked them better then. I mean, I loved them till the end but I didn't suffer so much because of them then. Back then, they had their amazing chemistry, a lot of angst and personal issues to deal with, lots of action/badass moments but also more friendly, light-hearted, humorous moments that I really missed later on. By the end of season 2 and the most part of season 3, their relationship became much heavier, darker and, although I understand it contributed to their growth as individuals, I still think a great part of the angst they had to live through was only there due to bad writing decisions and because they decided to advance plotlines they never should have started in the first place.I particularly disliked the way they dealt with the religious themes after season 3. It is such a rich topic to develop, but I think it was poorly done. From the final part of season 3 on , their relationship was calmer (though as powerful as ever) and they seemed to have come to terms with the part the other played in their lives. They were not fighting against each other anymore, and we had some lovely, bittersweet, heart-breaking scenes between them. There were too few of those, though. Each of them had taken their separate ways, went on their own personal journeys. But the relationship lost part of its romantic aspect. In a way it became more since they recognized that their connection transcended physical attraction, society conventions and even death (I don't have words to describe how much I love the "I am Lee. You are Kara. Nothing else matters" scene). But in a way it became less since they seemed to have given up pursuing a way to get together as a couple and they both seemed to accept the poof more easily than either of us here.

As individual characters, I have fallen in love with Lee first and , in spite of everything, I think his character got more of development than Kara's given that he was able to leave the military and become an important political player. I missed Captain Apollo dearly but I felt the development was believable since he continued to stand for pretty much the same beliefs he had been fighting for from the very beginning.
Kara's development, however, was a different story. I just can't accept that her life was reduced to the need to fulfill "her destiny".

[apollosspear.livejournal.com]

i have thought about the show as a whole and in terms of the question at hand i think the i began to watch the ship with a sense of mounting dread and despair from the fall out of the algae planet on. and my despair began with the episodes where anders was brought back on. everyone knows that i hate that character and with respect to those that like him i will not disparage him. however i will say this in terms of Kara's choice of a shield between her feelings for Lee and her fear, anders? really? really? REALLY?

i loved K/L as a ship from the beginning. as i watched the final season i was filled with sadness as i knew that they wouldn't end how i wanted. i liked how they grew as people, but hated how their base characteristics where deformed from how i saw them in the beginning. (mainly how easy i thought it was for them to accept the final five and to make deals with the renegade cylons, consisting of those models that tortured, injured there friends and family, and betrayed them.

but i am still hurt and angry over the ending. for some reason, probably a testament to how much i felt for this ship, i truly felt betrayed by how their relationship was portrayed as on long continuous mistake on a table. i truly am offended by that. so i try and sooth the ache by believing in fanfiction. desperation it truly is.