Daily Pilots Post: Kara or Lee?

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I’ve been pondering that when I became familiar with K/L fandom, one of the first things I noticed is that tendency among fellow shippers to define themselves as “Kara people” or “Lee people”, depending on the character we identify with more. And it occurred to me that it’s a fascinating phenomenon, since most of us seem to perceive the relationship through a certain POV --Lee’s or Kara’s—, even if we love their dynamic as friends/colleagues/lovers/siblings/soulmates to tiny bits.

So I find it interesting to dwell on how our special connection to one of them colors the perception of the whole relationship and all their interaction, since it really seems there are a lot of shades in the way the K/L shipperdom members approach the characters. That’s why today I’d like to talk about “classifications of shippers” and discuss how our perception of the ‘ship is different depending on our main focus of interest. And here there are some questions to ponder (and a poll!).

1. Being a shameless K/L shipper, you consider yourself...

*A Lee fan
*A Kara fan
*I can't choose, I love them both.

ETA. Damn LJ won't let me post the poll here. Answer in the comments, please!

2. Has your perception of “the other side” of the pairing changed since you fell for them as a couple? How?

3. In case that your favorite character is Kara,

a) Has there been a moment when you felt utterly disappointed/frustrated/angry with Lee because of his behavior towards her?

b) And a moment when you had your particular Lee!epiphany?

4. In case that your favorite character is Lee,

a) Has there been a moment when you felt utterly disappointed/frustrated/angry with Kara because of her behavior towards him?

b) And a moment when you had your particular Kara!epiphany?

Personally, I think I’ve reached a point where I can consider myself a “pure” shipper. I mean, I love both equally: Kara as my object of identification/admiration/sympathy –I am always drawn to strong female characters and can't watch a show without one--, and Lee as my object of desire and lust (although I also lust after Kara, but that’s another matter entirely ;P). But my crazy love for Lee has come as a result of a long process. Kara Thrace has always been my girl. She was the reason I started watching BSG in the first place and I fell head over heels with her and her charisma from the start. I always liked Lee –I loved his passion, his restrain and his smarts, and my love for him was fuelled in S1 by episodes like “Bastille Day” and “Hand of God”—, but I always found him more difficult to read and I certainly noticed him more when he was with Kara.

And yet, in S4, something changed. I still adored Kara but couldn’t connect with her the way I did before the Demetrius story arc. And there was Lee, becoming his own man and the President of the Twelve Colonies and taking charge of everything and holding Papadama while he drooled and fell apart and loving Kara no matter what she was… and something just clicked right then. I think that was my particular Lee!epiphany :). So right now, if I had to choose, I’d still choose Kara, but I honestly can't tell who I love more. I love them both.

And having said that, I love them even more as that beautiful, complex and tortured young couple we met --and their chemistry just blows me away. Their feelings and interaction with each other are my favorite aspects of them as characters, and I firmly believe that their bond was so deep that they were defined in many ways by their connection –personally, I can't conceive the one without the other. Together, they always were more than the sum of their parts. My favorite fictional couple ever, whithout any shade of doubt :).

Comments

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

This is WAY too hard. I love them both so much. They're my favorite characters.

Kara is, in my opinion, one of if not the best female character ever created. I actually did a monologue using her as an inspiration as a final for my class. It was about the idea that "Strong Female Characters" are generally not great characters, and only have one skill that makes them strong, but they are still just young and sexy and there for the hero to bang in the end, and that they needed to stop being SFCs and start being strong characters that are female, and that fits Kara to a T. She fascinates me, the depth of her character. She's so complex and multilayered and GUH, amazing.

The thing is though, I don't know many people who dislike her. Okay, I do know some, but she's generally loved in fandom. Lee, on the other hand, tends to get a lot of fandom hatred, more than Kara anyway. So I feel the strong need to defend his character because people don't seem to appreciate the depth of it. I mean, he's got just as many issues as Kara, but he presents them in a way that makes him seem coldhearted and cruel and all he does is screw people over. But they don't see the driven young man who's been hurt so many times that he can't bring himself to trust anyone, can't open up. People in fandom forgive Kara her flaws so much more easily than they forgive Lee... I don't know why, but it's true.

I mean... okay... yes.. I think if I had to choose between them, it'd be Kara, but I love the two of them so much, both as individuals and in their dynamic with each other.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

that they needed to stop being SFCs and start being strong characters that are female, and that fits Kara to a T. She fascinates me, the depth of her character. She's so complex and multilayered and GUH, amazing.

Yes. I totally agree. The main reason I love Kara so much is because she is so incredibly complex and contradictory. She is so... challenging and fascinating as a character. And Katee's performance blows up my mind.

Lee, on the other hand, tends to get a lot of fandom hatred, more than Kara anyway.

I know! There has been so much Lee!hatred --he is loathed by a lot of people (including some Kara supporters), and frankly I don't get it. I guess it's because he is not as charismatic and larger-than-life as her... Lee is so restrained, I guess sometimes it can be difficult to sympathize with him. But I tend to get very protective of him every time I see all that bashing, too.

People in fandom forgive Kara her flaws so much more easily than they forgive Lee... I don't know why, but it's true.

Agree. I tend to think it's because the inherent sexism within LJ fandom... I mean, everyone loves Kara because we are all feminists here and Kara is a strong female character and blah, blah... But Lee? Nope. He is abusive when he hits her or even when they trade punches in a boxing match because... well, "his blows hurt much more" (that's something I read somewhere, ugh).

[somethingusual.livejournal.com]

My (very longwinded) Response:

I'm going to have to say I'm more on the Kara side of things. I started watching BSG with the beginning of season 2 and didn't watch the mini or season 1 till I was halfway through season 4 (then I missed the season 4 mutiny and watched the last ep) I have no idea what I was thinking btw.

Anyways, because of this weird watching order I came into BSG when Kara was just getting together with Sam (I just assumed they were the cannon couple and was disappointed with their blandness). I really didn't understand the Kara/Lee connection at all until they were suddenly making out in a raptor in season 3. I always identified with/admired Kara though (and may have gotten my hair cut like hers :p) she was just such an interesting and engaging character. Troubled pasts and bad-ass girls always get me.

So yeah, my Lee/Kara epiphany happened while I was watching Unfinished Business. They just had so much chemestry! Watching the mini and season 1 (finally) I was well and truly hooked. They're connection/chemestry was just so well set up. Not to mention their angsty backstory. I was hooked and had to rewatch all the seasons intently to find all the little (and not so little) Kara/Lee moments I missed.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I really didn't understand the Kara/Lee connection at all until they were suddenly making out in a raptor in season 3.

haha. Well, there was a hell of a connection in that raptor (so I assume you watch UB after the EoJ, right?).

(and may have gotten my hair cut like hers :p)

Heee! :)

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I love them both dearly and I think they wouldn't be half as interesting without the other. I mean, one of the best things about their relationship is exactly the fact that they are so different and so flawed and yet they complement each other in the most adorable, endearing way.
Now, having said that, I am first and foremost a Lee fan. I loved him from the first scene in the mini when he was so obnoxious to the chief and when he could hardly contain all his bottled up anger and resentment towards his dad. In fact, it was his "daddy issues" that first drew me towards the character. Having them myself, I was able to relate to it right away and see through the obnoxious, cold, self-righteous façade. To me, his conflicted feelilngs towards his father and the fact that he would have to find a way to deal with them after being forced to serve under him due to the attacks would be more than enough to make him an interesting character. Then I loved the way he behaved towards Roslin, being the first to accep her as the lady in charge not only because it was the law (and the right thing to do) but because he saw the leader in her. The fact that he had such chemestry with Kara from the beggining was an added bonus.

Has there been a moment when you felt utterly disappointed/frustrated/angry with Kara because of her behavior towards him?
They both had their really bad moments and did hurt the other a lot. But the worst Kara moment regarding Lee was definitly when she left him after the night they spent together and got married. I can think of many reasons for that (and we have discussed them here before) but to forgive someone after that... OMG, it would be reaaaalllly hard.

And I agree with rayruz :"People in fandom forgive Kara her flaws so much more easily than they forgive Lee... I don't know why".

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Then I loved the way he behaved towards Roslin, being the first to accep her as the lady in charge not only because it was the law (and the right thing to do) but because he saw the leader in her.

I think that was my first Lee!squee moment :) I loved how he immediately recognized Roslin's leadership skills and stepped aside. I used to like the Lee and Laura's interaction in S1 early season 2 too. It's a shame that they didn't handled it properly... I always had the feeling Lee was too isolated as a character, being Adama and Kara his only meaningful relationships.

But the worst Kara moment regarding Lee was definitly when she left him after the night they spent together and got married.

It was Kara's lowest moment, that's for sure... But I just couldn't blame her... I felt so bad for the two of them, really.

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

I can't choose. They're both amazing and fabulous and broken and complicated and powerful and just... guh. Individually and together. I identify with Kara's impulsiveness and intuitiveness (and honestly, I envy her cock-sure brashness), but I fell so hard for Lee. Like, really, really hard. I think that's part of why I ship them, actually. It's like shipping my dream-self with my fantasy. **blush**

And of course I've had moments when I've wanted to throw things at both of them. That's part of their charm -- they aren't perfect. The stuff of fantasies, sure, but not perfect.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

It's like shipping my dream-self with my fantasy. **blush**

LOL. THAT'S IT FOR ME :D

[lyras.livejournal.com]

Yeah....I hated Kara at points during season 3.5-4.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Well, I just can't hate Kara (neither Lee), I love them too damn much. But during S4 I didn't feel the same connection I had with Kara, it was like I couldn't recognize her anymore --which, oddly, is kinda fitting, given that pre-maelstrom Kara was not Angel!Kara and all. I found especially traumatic all her behavior during the Demestrius story arc --especially as far as all her interactions with Sam were concerned.

[daybreak777.livejournal.com]

You have the best questions. :-)

1. I am a Kara fan. :-) She's my favorite character on the show.

2. Has my perception of Lee changed? Yes. I thought he was kinda whiny and tight-assed in the mini. I know he had baggage but I dunno I really saw how Lee possibly dying and losing another son was about to break Adama. I was like just hug your Dad already, boy. It's the end of the world! Also, Lee reminded me a bit of myself when I was young. It was hard to watch him struggle and I think I distanced myself from him. It was rewarding to watch him grow, though.

I changed about Lee because I found a lot, I mean a lot of Lee fans/defenders here on LJ who would patiently explain Lee's behavior to me after each episode while I tried to explain Kara's. The Lee fans are so eloquent sometimes. That and reading and writing fic about him helped. :-)

3. a) Has there been a moment when you felt utterly disappointed/frustrated/angry with Lee because of his behavior towards her?
No. Lee balances Kara out and he holds her responsible for her actions, baggage or not. And she needs that. She doesn't need someone always easy on her or the same as her. She needs Lee to be that voice and she needs someone to be better for even as a friend. If I was frustrated with Lee it wasn't on Kara's account. It was because the writers cut so many good scenes of him in season 2 or they dropped explanations for the suicide attempt in Res. Ship or the weight gain in season 3. It became clear to me that it wasn't Lee's fault. It was sometimes faulty writing that made his character so unclear to me.

b) And a moment when you had your particular Lee!epiphany?
Two moments. My favorite line from a deleted scene in Home Pt 1. "I like to think following your heart is never a mistake." Aww! Said in this soft Lee voice. I feel that's at the center of who Lee is and they deleted it! Moment 2: RAZOR. Razor was like all LEE to me and I loved him in it. Really turned me around on him. It might have helped that I saw it on the big screen (Lee's face was huge across the screen :-)). But still, Razor. Lee was great in it to me.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"If I was frustrated with Lee it wasn't on Kara's account. It was because the writers cut so many good scenes of him in season 2 or they dropped explanations for the suicide attempt in Res. Ship or the weight gain in season 3"

My thoughts exactly.

"My favorite line from a deleted scene in Home Pt 1. "I like to think following your heart is never a mistake."
OMG. I've never seen this scene or heard of it. PLEASE, tell me more about it. What's the context? Is it available online somewhere?

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I adore them both, and think they are at their best together, no question. But I do tend to approach their relationship through Lee - he's the one I identify with, and he's my favorite character. It's funny, because I think that objectively Kara is the *best* character on the show - she has such depth, variety, charisma, and Katee is in my opinion the first among equals in a great ensemble cast. But I feel like I *get* Lee, while Kara is often a mystery, and when I watched new BSG episodes he was the one I was following and looking for first. He's the one I make the most excuses for, trying to give him the benefit of the doubt :) Plus, as others have said, Kara is so easy to love that I hardly have to think about why, whereas my connection with Lee feels more personal, and I have to articulate more clearly the reasons behind it.

I'm not sure my perception of Kara's side of their relationship has changed drastically - I always cared about her a lot and was willing to interpret her hurtful actions as manifestations of her own pain and self-loathing. The one thing I wasn't really always sure about was whether she wanted to be with Lee as much as he wanted to be with her; she seemed more divided in her affections than he did at various points in the series. I think the observations of Kara-oriented shippers, and especially the extraordinary fanfiction stories written from her perspective, have given me a greater appreciation of her love for Lee. Which is totally awesome.

As for moments of frustration, I think oddly enough that her refusal to divorce but willingness to cheat in the EoJ/R episodes were most difficult for me to take seriously. I have always loved the fact that she is religious - it's really rare to find strong, intelligent characters who draw part of their strength from a spiritual tradition, and I identified with her on that score. But the way she used her religion there felt like the way she used her marriage in the first place, as an excuse to keep Lee at bay when he asked and offered too much. I identified with Lee's frustration in that moment, and then I watched him take her beliefs seriously and, rather than calling her on forging another excuse, he assumed her religious perspective was ethically serious and was a fundamental part of her that he couldn't understand but had to respect. I think that's why I understand Lee's retreat from her in TABFAYW when she offers the divorce he asked her for before - I think he hears her declaration that she "said some words to the wrong guy" not as a declaration of cosmos-defying love but as proof that her religious protestations from before *were* just an excuse to put him off. So I understand why he reacts with anger and fear - he feels like, once again, she hasn't been playing straight with him. But I think I understand emotionally where Kara was coming from, too, and how desperate she felt.

In short, I love them both, but tend to approach things first from Lee's persepective and then unravel Kara's. And then want to punch and hug them both :)

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

The one thing I wasn't really always sure about was whether she wanted to be with Lee as much as he wanted to be with her;

You know, something that frustrates the hell out of me is that so-called "ambiguity" surrounding Kara's love for Lee. I sincerely believe that Kara loved him so deeply and with such raw passion, she was utterly terrified of those feelings and what her love might do to him... Lee never was so afraid to give himself over to her as she was, and we saw her running away from him over and over, so I can see where this perception about Kara's divided feelings come from. But frankly, even though I do believe she loved Sam, her feelings for him were from a very different nature imo. Sam was uncomplicated, fun and comfortable, and Lee was everything she craved but never would dare to actually own (leda13's ”Fearful Symmetry” (http://leda13.livejournal.com/26457.html) is possibly one of the most awesome portraits of hers I've read).

I think oddly enough that her refusal to divorce but willingness to cheat in the EoJ/R episodes were most difficult for me to take seriously.

Yeah, for me too (I can't even bring myself to find a consistent explanation for her shifts because I can't help but attribute them to bad, very bad writting! Sometimes it's kinda frustrating when you realize that fans give more thought to certain things than professional writers do (jeneviverose made some good points on ”this post” (http://sci-fi-shipper.livejournal.com/28849.html), if you are interested :)). But I pretty much agree with your take.

And then want to punch and hug them both

:))))

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

. Being a shameless K/L shipper, you consider yourself...

Oh, boy... Since I first saw the question earlier, I've been trying to figure out if I lean more one way than the other. I'll waffle and say I love them both equally. No, I'm all about Kara. Or... Hmm...

Since I'm waffling, I'll pick and choose from both sets of questions.

3. In case that your favorite character is Kara,

a) Has there been a moment when you felt utterly disappointed/frustrated/angry with Lee because of his behavior towards her?

When she offered to leave Sam and he got all angry. Srsly. You asked her to and now she's offering, Apollo! How differently the end might have gone. I might have even allowed the poof if they'd had any happiness at all.

4. In case that your favorite character is Lee,

a) Has there been a moment when you felt utterly disappointed/frustrated/angry with Kara because of her behavior towards him?

In UB, I was very disappointed by the Kara at the dance, when she threw their night on NewCap into Dee's face. Bad Kara! She left him the next morning. She can be mad at herself, or even mad that he didn't forgive her or that he married Dee (it wouldn't surprise me if she wanted him to just stay single and pine after her), but, ugh! Angry.

b) And a moment when you had your particular Kara!epiphany?

The triad game in the mini. Loved. Her.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"When she offered to leave Sam and he got all angry. Srsly. You asked her to and now she's offering, Apollo! How differently the end might have gone. I might have even allowed the poof if they'd had any happiness at all."

I couldn't agree more.

[stripes13.livejournal.com]

It's hard for me to choose. I feel that I connect better with Kara, so she is my favorite. But I do really like both of them.

Like I said, I consider myself a Kara person all the way, but even while I was so enamored with her throughout the entire show, I was very interested in Lee. Not just because he was so delicious, but because he had a ton of potential to develop into someone who is more than just "Apollo". The groundwork for that was there from the beginning but he was very clearly mishandled (this was talked about a lot in yesterday's post).

Yes, there have been moments when I've been disappointed with Lee. I might not like his decision in Taking A Break, but I can accept it as a part of the whole pilots story, and I do understand his reasons for it.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I might not like his decision in Taking A Break, but I can accept it as a part of the whole pilots story, and I do understand his reasons for it.

Yes, totally agree (for some reason, the whole ep didn't sadden me as much as it does right now... I suppose right then I still believed that Kara and Lee were the endgame. Sigh).

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

1. Um. Jeez, I don't think I can pick. Even though I'm probably slightly more of a Kara fan, I love them both, and the fact that I sympathize a lot with Kara doesn't change the fact that I don't really view the relationship through a particular POV. It's all very enigmatic and inaccessible to me, actually, which makes it a rough ship to ship.

2. I think there are a lot of moments in the series when Kara reveals herself as being much more in love with Lee than we (or I) was able to perceive, but I'm not sure we don't get moments like that with Lee too. In a strange way, I think Lee knows for a long time that he loves Kara, but has to get hit over the head with just how much he does; for Kara it's somehow the opposite: she realizes there is something huge and kind of scary that she feels for him, but it takes her a while to realize it's something pretty real and good.

3.

a) I've actually been pretty forgiving with Lee a lot of the time. He does and says a lot of things that are hurtful to Kara, but only when he's not in a state where he's able to realize how badly she's affected by it. Lee has always been empathy-challenged when he's going through his own shit, and in my mind Kara's very familiar with that.

b) His way of reacting to her death was pretty eye-opening.

4. In case that your favorite character is Lee,

a) It's definitely a shock that she breaks his heart so badly when they're on New Caprica, and had that story been told in a linear rather than "by the way, this is what happened between the two of them" way, I think I would have been more mad at her. I was definitely a little pissed, but not so surprised.

b) When she tells Dee about how she needs to cheat to keep the pieces straight, you really realize she's not making any part of her life work because of how she's been running from what she really wants for so long. It is hard to hear how she finds it hard to choose between Lee and Sam - I always think she loved and needed them both in very different ways, and I don't think she would've lost Sam completely in the instance that they'd officially separated, and things might have been different if she'd realized that sooner (or not had a dead fiancee that made her go about avoiding breaking hearts in all the very wrong ways, as I like to see it.)

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I think there are a lot of moments in the series when Kara reveals herself as being much more in love with Lee than we (or I) was able to perceive, but I'm not sure we don't get moments like that with Lee too

I always thought that Lee always wore his heart in his sleeve as far as Kara was concerned, while Kara was more conflicted --and could be read in a more ambiguous way (not that I have any doubt that she was totally besotted with him, but...). I have always thought that Lee fell for Kara right from the start, but he did a fabulous job repressing --and denying-- it, while Kara was more aware of her feelings but also much more scared.

[jeeshee.livejournal.com]

1. Being a shameless K/L shipper, you consider yourself...

*A Kara fan

I've loved Kara since I started watching the show. Even though she's probably the opposite of my own personality, I instantly connected with her character and was always disappointed with an episode if she wasn't in it.

2. Has your perception of “the other side” of the pairing changed since you fell for them as a couple? How?

Yes, sort of. Watching the show the first time through I rather disliked Lee - I found him whiny and prissy. I still shipped K/L, of course.

Since rewatching the show and getting into the K/L fandom, I've definitely come to understand Lee a lot better and I've even grown quite affectionate towards him (partially because I feel defensive of my ship). Thanks to all the fic and meta writers out there Lee is now in my top five characters.

3. In case that your favorite character is Kara,

a) Has there been a moment when you felt utterly disappointed/frustrated/angry with Lee because of his behavior towards her?
When he basically called her a slut in KLG just because he was jealous. It really wasn't his place to criticise since his own inaction was equally to blame for their failure to work it out in CD. I can understand him feeling humiliated/annoyed but it still irked me!

b) And a moment when you had your particular Lee!epiphany?
S4 was definitely a turning point for me, both through my fandom experience and Lee's kindness towards Kara. I think the character development for him fell off the rails as well, so I began to see where he'd been underwritten in the past and how that affected my view of him.

I mean, I even have a Lee icon now!

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Watching the show the first time through I rather disliked Lee - I found him whiny and prissy

You know, there's so many people to tend to see him like that --I just don't understand it (ok, I am not a fan of lee!emo, but Lee is much more than his emo side...)

When he basically called her a slut in KLG just because he was jealous.

Heh, I totally adore that moment! Not that I am saying that what Lee did was right and acceptable, but seeing a man so restrained and self-controled losing it that way... I dunno, I realized how much he cared for her. And I don't think he felt humiliated... I believe he was jealous and also a little bit scared of Kara's self-destructiveness --I mean, he knew Kara didn’t like Baltar at all and still she slept with him. It was not casual sex for Kara; it was sex with someone she had always seemed to regard with disdain.

I even have a Lee icon now!

Only one? ;P

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

1. Being a shameless K/L shipper, you consider yourself...
So, as many know, I am a Lee girl. Absolutely and without question, I frakking adore Lee Adama.

2. Has your perception of “the other side” of the pairing changed since you fell for them as a couple? How?
So, before I say this, let me strongly say that I LOVE STARBUCK/KARA (two characters in many ways) and I ship these two like mad. But, that said, I think the pairing has made me *gasp* like Kara less than I did when I first fell in love with Apollo and Starbuck. I completely loved Kara in S1 and 2, but I guess I sometimes can't get past what she did to Lee on NuCap. It's silly really, I mean Lee certainly forgave her (even if he didn't trust her fully). I often feel a very visceral connection to Lee and feel incredibly hurt and sad about her betrayal. I re-watched UBEX for my pilotsbigbang and I had a very hard time with it. I was so angry and hurt. I don't want it to color my feelings toward Kara, but I guess I became wary of her until later in the show, when her troubled and vulnerable side won me over again.

4. In case that your favorite character is Lee,
a) Has there been a moment when you felt utterly disappointed/frustrated/angry with Kara because of her behavior towards him?
See Above

b) And a moment when you had your particular Kara!epiphany?
I loved Starbuck from 33 when she yells at Lee for being too nice to the pilots. I love her moxy and her take-no-shit attitude. I happened to see the mini well into S1, so I don't know if I would have fallen in love with her there.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

S1 and S2 pilots were glorious and perfect. As for NuCap, sound like my hub when we discussed this particular topic, actually :) Myself, I can't take sides, I find everything so sad, I just want to hug them.

[innibis.livejournal.com]

I wrote a huge post on this and lost it. I don't think I have it in me to write it again, so I will shorthand.

I love them both, understand them both, see parts of myself in both. They are endearingly, frustratingly flawed and have a tendency toward cruelty that makes me wince, but they're pilots.

I think I've talked about this before, that I find Lee more compelling because Kara is an archetype - the hero on the hero's journey (I say that as someone who adores the hero's journey so it isn't meant as an insult.) Sure, she's a woman, but I have more hard living military women (pilots, marines, spec ops, etc) in my life then you can shake a stick at, so even that, though maybe unusual on tv, wasn't anything particularly new - it was praying in berthing that made her suddenly seem like something more, but she still basically fits a mold. Lee's too thoughtful and willing to take a backseat to be the hero and too much of an alpha to be a sidekick. He is a series of interesting contradictions. Plus I'm a sucker for human rights/democracy/free will advocates.

Also, it isn't Kara's fault, but she's the center of a criminally shoddy mytharc plot that unravels if you look at it too hard and that's very frustrating.

[da-angel729.livejournal.com]

I think I've talked about this before, that I find Lee more compelling because Kara is an archetype - the hero on the hero's journey (I say that as someone who adores the hero's journey so it isn't meant as an insult.) Sure, she's a woman, but I have more hard living military women (pilots, marines, spec ops, etc) in my life then you can shake a stick at, so even that, though maybe unusual on tv, wasn't anything particularly new - it was praying in berthing that made her suddenly seem like something more, but she still basically fits a mold. Lee's too thoughtful and willing to take a backseat to be the hero and too much of an alpha to be a sidekick. He is a series of interesting contradictions. Plus I'm a sucker for human rights/democracy/free will advocates.

I really love your assessment and I think I'd have to agree. Kara's definitely the Hero but Lee doesn't really fit the sidekick mold or the Hero mold. And I also find it a lot more interesting than the Hero's Journey.

[da-angel729.livejournal.com]

1. Being a shameless K/L shipper, you consider yourself...

I'm a Lee fan. I fell in love with Lee first and only warmed up to Kara later. I don't like characters that are over the top and IMO, Kara's introduction felt over the top to me. But I loved Lee the moment he snarked at Chief about his father.

2. Has your perception of “the other side” of the pairing changed since you fell for them as a couple? How?

I do like Kara a lot more now than I used to, especially if you take into account their childhoods and understand more of the background between the two of them.

4. In case that your favorite character is Lee,

a) Has there been a moment when you felt utterly disappointed/frustrated/angry with Kara because of her behavior towards him?

b) And a moment when you had your particular Kara!epiphany?

a) I have a lot of problems with the Kara and Lee interaction in Season 2. Lee doesn't really apologize for his actions with Baltar and then Kara gets really self-involved, but also that Kara gets away with her rule-breaking and Lee doesn't, not really. I mean, during Resurrection Ship, Lee's idea to use the Blackbird gets him demoted and Kara promoted. Some of that is Cain's agenda, of course, but Kara doesn't get in trouble after taking the Raider to Caprica and Lee gets thrown in the brig for mutiny. Of course, that's probably Bill's agenda. Hmm. It seems I have a problem with other characters more than Lee and Kara.

b) My Kara!ephiphany actually happened during the mini-series. When this badass fighter pilot takes the picture out and prays for the dead, I was really surprised and pleased that she was going to be more complicated than she had originally appeared. I think if I hadn't already loved Lee I might have fallen for Kara then.

[acsgrlie.livejournal.com]

Oh I love them both so much but I would say I'm more of a Lee fan. I agree that there is a certain likeability to a character that breaks all the rules like Kara but when Lee does show some rebellious behavior it makes it all the more interesting and exciting. I like to say it's Kara's influence on him too.
I think I really saw their relationship in Lee's POV after Unfinished Business. It took me a while to understand why she did what she did and I just felt so bad for Lee but still couldn't completely hate Kara.
But before that I really started to like Kara in YCGHA when she was figuring out how to fly the raider.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"I like to say it's Kara's influence on him too"

I don't think so. I mean, I think she influences his behavior, with her more carefree attitude and all. But as for what we would consider his rebellious behavior... that would be purely Lee. He has very strong beliefs and it is to defend them that he rebels, defies authority. She had no influence over his decision to support the new president Roslin, desobeying his father's others in the mini. She wasn't around when he cut a deal with Zarek after the hostage taking situation in S1 (going against both the president and the commander) , when he put a gun to Tigh's head to defend the president and later helped her escape from the brig. In fact I don't think Kara herself would have rebelled in any of these situations.

[eugis.livejournal.com]

I LOVE LEE ADAMA AND I DON'T CARE WHO FRAKKIN' KNOWS!

That's all I have to say. ;p

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

*hahaha*

(hay necesidad de decir más? LOL)

Epic Response, Part 1

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Do you need to ask? Hee. Kara, all the way, of course.

That being said: I feel like I understand them both very well, but I've been much more disappointed with the places canon has led Lee and the way they've had him react to things. Even when I understand why, which is most of the time.

I fell in love with Kara, who I consider an antihero, in the miniseries because I totally have a type. I like my female characters ballsy and brazen but with a sentimental heart (See also: Veronica Mars, Watts from Some Kind of Wonderful, S1 Joey Potter). Kara is amazingly layered as a character and somehow all the layers work together. She's tough, but she's spiritual. She's an athlete, and an artist. As each new layer was revealed I never once questioned that they worked for this character and were truly parts of her personality. (I never thought she was a Mary Sue as some people did either.)

I didn't really warm up to Lee for a very long time. I thought he was too prissy and obnoxious (mouthing off to the chief rudely and being awful to his dad), too much of a pretty boy (I KNOW, I KNOW), not man enough for Kara (I can remember saying that as late as watching Scar--though I devoured the first three seasons on DVD so that was only a few days after I started watching probably). But I shipped them right from the start, anyway, because it was crystal clear to me that Kara was in love with this man and I always want my favorites to get what they want.

Also, I had trouble with Jamie's acting in some pivotal scenes, whereas Katee blew me away with almost every single second of her scenes.

All of Season One I thought they very clearly set up that Kara wanted Lee (she flirts with him in You Can't Go Home Again, can't take her eyes off him in Hand of God, squirts him with the water hose and then dresses up all pretty for him in Colonial Day, has the total Leegasm in KLG1). I think the ship was mostly told through Kara POV in a way this season. I was maybe a little unsure that he cared for her as much as she cared for him until Colonial Day/KLG1. But then comes Lee disappointment because she asks if he would miss her if she died and he PRACTICALLY SAYS NO!! And then she apologized (!) and he still walked out of the room without making it right. That hurt.

She comes home and he kisses her! Hurray! Then he rudely thanks her for "bringing in the trash" and slams her up against the fence when she stops him from shooting Sharon. Sigh.

The changing point with me for Lee was probably Scar actually. The minute he stood up and finished her toast I think I really started liking him more as his own character than as just part of the ship. It was a mature and supportive move (not just as a man who loves her, but as the CAG as well). I would say from Home until Unfinished Business, the POV of the ship shifted to Lee. Lee was the one seemingly pining, because the Dee stuff was not well-developed and no one really cared about the one-episode prostitute. All of that pining actually made me like Lee a lot more actually.

The fling and their refusals to get divorced in Rapture (Kara) and TABFYW (Lee) are just contrivances because the writers wanted to keep them apart. Fear and all that bullshit aside, there is no logical reason for Lee to want it in Rapture and not in TABFYW. Likewise there is no logical reason for Kara to no longer care about marriage being an unbreakable vow in the space of two episodes (esp. if the talk with Sam was supposed to be AFTER she goes to Lee as someone discussed recently.)

Re: Epic Response, Part 2

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

As far as forgiving Kara for more than I forgive Lee, I do because I love her totally. But also, Lee's fear of rejection/abusive past was a very late in the game development. His issues with his father don't logically have any ties to his love life unless you buy into Black Market, which was really just kind of a mess to me. Maybe if they'd hit his issues with fear of rejection earlier. If they'd delved more into his childhood earlier, I would have felt that Lee was just as fucked up as Kara was. But since he was so non-dysfunctional ... I guess I expected more from him. I also have a lot of issues with the way the Dee/Lee relationship started and evolved where it never really felt like there was a real bond between them, so much as him settling for a crutch. (Sam was a crutch for Kara too, but somehow it felt more developed. You got to see two moments for them that were pretty happy and about each other, rather than about other people. I always felt like Kara was standing right in the middle of Lee/Dee. Though again, might be my bias talking.

Anyway, since this is the world's longest post and I could keep going, I'll just say since the finale, I love Lee a lot more. Because I love fandom Lee and I didn't always love canon Lee. Because also I feel horribly protective about him since that terrible terrible ending he got. **shrugs**

One thing that bums me out about Shipper Nation is that I feel like there is so much less love for Kara or at least discussion of that love for her than there is for Lee. I know this is an inverse I guess to fandom as a whole. But I wish more folks HERE loved her and loved to talk about her more.

[entaiaime.livejournal.com]

I was a Starbuck fan from the get go. She's such a beautifully complex character. From what I understand, Katee and Jamie were actually the ones to come up with the history of attraction between Kara and Lee before the mini. I'm a newbie to this so I would like someone to confirm that for me.

I am with taragel about not warming up to Lee right away. I thought he was too much of a pretty boy in the mini. He's just such a deep character and his self-destructive side is a lot harder to show that Kara's, but it's just as real. I also think the writers were not true to his character throughout the show. I always thought it was OOC for Lee to marry Dee after Kara married Anders, but then he ran(?) from Gianne because she was pregnant? The writers never felt the need to really explain his choices. I also don't think Lee would have shouted his love to the heavens either, especially since he should have known Kara well enough to see the fear on her face when he said that they would tell Dee and Anders the next day. I don't know I could go on and on about the inconsistencies for him. I have a major crush on fandom Lee.

I have only been a K/L shipper since Feb 2010 so please help me get my facts straight if I'm wrong on all this. I appreciate being able to talk about Kara and Lee to people who understand my love for them!

[antismiles.livejournal.com]

Haha, this is probably the easiest set of questions you've asked, Cosette. ;P

1. Being a shameless K/L shipper, you consider yourself:

I am such a Lee fan, it's ridiculous. My love for him very rarely fluctuates. He could have gone and frakked that pigeon, and I still would adore him. It would symbolize me and Eugie... *cough*

But really, of all the eleventy billion characters on BSG, Lee is one of the few I have always liked and will always like. (Others include SAUL & ELLEN MOTHERFRAKKIN' TIGH, and Kendra.)

2. Has your perception of “the other side” of the pairing changed since you fell for them as a couple? How?

Hm... Absolutely, my perception of Kara has changed. Except I don't know if that's necessarily a good thing. I find I'm much less forgiving of her than I was back in the early days of season one, less willing to cut her slack when she fucks up. (And she does, often.) Part of that is because I'm bitter. I've been bitter since UB, and that's never really gone away. Probably never will, since every time I think of that episode I become so incredibly angry. Which may or may not be fair, but that's how it is.

And yet, on the other hand, when I forget the things she's done, and I see her acting competent, I feel a lot of love for her. When things aren't as totally fucked up as usual between her and Lee, I love her. Of course, this can be boiled down to: I only like her when she's not being mean. But that's not it, exactly. It's difficult to articulate without coming off that way, but what can I say? My opinion on and love for Kara changes faster than Glee can screw up its pacing.

3. Has there been a moment when you felt utterly disappointed/frustrated/angry with Kara because of her behavior towards him?

Many who know me know that the answer is a resounding "HOLY FRAK YES." Like I explained above, I really hated Kara in UB. Well, that was caused mainly by two things: the morning after kick to the face, and the ringside scenes ("sloppy seconds", that shit-eating grin, et cetera). Oh man, my blood boils just thinking about that goddamn episode. (I've come to realize I really really don't like UB. Grrr.)

There was another moment that really had me disappointed and just SO NOT HAPPY, though. Season one, "Hand of God", pre-mission briefing in the squadron read room or whatever it was. When she essentially tells him he can't pull it off. Oh, my anger, let me explode it out at you. I've seen a lot of people defend, justify, or explain what Kara meant, and I've seen fics that talk about how she thought it was necessary, et cetera, et cetera. And just, no. No. You will never convince me that this scene was anything more than a supremely bitchy move by Kara.

I could go on about scenes that left me really annoyed by Kara, but that would make this comment longer than it already is. Also, most of those scenes are more to do with her storyline and the contrived and horrifically executed destiny arc than they are with Lee.

4. And a moment when you had your particular Kara!epiphany?

Mmmmm. I don't know if I've ever really had what you would call an Kara!epiphany. I have never been fully persuaded to her side or been able to connect with her. Her mind tends to be a mystery to me, and what I know about her is usually only what I see in canon. Meta doesn't factor into my opinions on Kara anymore. Used to, back when the show was on, but now? Eh.

So no, I have never had a moment of just clicking with Kara. I like her best of Lee's love interests (well, on a good day) because Lee loves her the most. Even if I'm unsure she's a good match for him. On bad days (aka lots of days) I'm convinced that I was hoodwinked into shipping them, and I ship Lee/anyone-but-Kara because the thought of Lee/Kara makes my stomach lurch a bit.

Yes, that means there are several days I support Lee/Gianne, or Lee/Gaeta, even Lee/Dee. *shrugs* (I must admit Lee/Gianne fascinates me. And Lee/Gaeta is a minor obsession of mine.)

...

Wow. I think this is probably the most negative comment that's been made to this comm the entire week. I'd say I'm sorry to disappoint y'all, but I'm not. ;)

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Wow! You really don't like Kara very much, do you? ;)

I also consider myself "such a Lee fan, it's ridiculous" and I totally agree you regarding the "Hand of God" scene. I really hated what she did to Lee on New Caprica and it amazes me that he was ever able to forgive her for it, but in a way, I think the Hand of God scene is even worse (although easier to forgive). What I mean is that on New Caprica one can argue that she did it because she freaked out over the depth of her feelings and fear of hurting Lee even more on the long run/getting hurt herself or anything along those lines. In short, it was cruel and mean but motivated by love. And she suffered as well, it is evident on her face when she runs into him on the street. Now in Hand of God she was just bitchy and, to me, selfish and unprofessional. No matter how frustrated she was for not being able to take part in the mission or how strongly she might have believed she could do the job better, it's no excuse for trying to make your co-worker insecure about such a crucial mission. Neither of these episodes scenes is enough for making me like her less, though. And to support other ships other than Kara and Lee? No way. Yes, she is flawed (even on her good days) but so is he (and I can admit it) but somehow they work so well together and, over time, both of them grew into better versions of themselves.

[(Anonymous)]

Leeee all the way. I do love Kara too most of the time. but I don't get her instinctively which makes it hard to understand her when she does unlikable things or treats people horribly. (I'm not saying Lee doesn't do these things too, I just understand his motivations better). Having said that I love Kara in fanon, or I usually love the explanations Kara fans give me for her behavior, I just need a translator! ;)

My problem with Kara also specifically came with Sam, as I'm usually a bit frustrated with love triangles in fiction. I just find the whole "I love two people and I can't decide" angle really selfish. And I don't understand when people in fandom think Kara should be with both of them, but sadly that doesn't work because Lee's so possesive. I mean maybe I'm old fashioned but I get why that would be a bit hurtful to him.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

And I don't understand when people in fandom think Kara should be with both of them, but sadly that doesn't work because Lee's so possesive

I don't understand it either. And I haven't anything against Sam as a character --even though I always felt he was too unidimensional for my tastes--, but I despise the K/S dynamic in S3 and S4. And I never thought Kara should be with both... mainly because I always felt that although Kara cared for Anders, Lee was the one she really wanted.

[x5vale.livejournal.com]

1.I am a pure shipper too but I was born as a Lee girl, as you know very well :)

2.No it didn't, because I loved Kara since the beginning.

3. When she let down Lee, marrying Anders. I have to say, Lee let me down when he didn't fight enough to have her back. But I get why they did.

Quoting you, I totally agree with this:
And yet, in S4, something changed. I still adored Kara but couldn’t connect with her the way I did before the Demetrius story arc.

I adore this ( being a Lee girl :)))
And there was Lee, becoming his own man and the President of the Twelve Colonies and taking charge of everything and holding Papadama while he drooled and fell apart and loving Kara no matter what she was…

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I was born as a Lee girl, as you know very well :)

Heee, yes, I know how much you love our boy :)

But I get why they did.

Me too. They are incredibly frustrating, but I just can't blame either of them. I understand the reasoning/feelings behind their choices (bad writing aside, that is), and I can't help but feeling terribly sad for them. But that was just them.

I adore this ( being a Lee girl :)))

I knew you were going to love it! :p Yep, I guess I had my Lee!epiphany in S4 (not that I didn't love him to bits before, though), but right now I honestly can't choose between them, I adore them individually and as a couple --as you know very well ;).

Hope that are you are doing ok, hon! (dear, I feel like I have been neglecting my flist all this week, hopefuly I will be able to catch up soon!).

**hugs**

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

Why must I choose? I love them both and I refuse to choose who I love more.

I fell in love with both of them at the same time in the first brig scene. As the show progressed, I understood them as individuals and as a couple/friends/whatever they were. I love the parts that made them unique and I love the parts that connected them. Though like rayruz says belows Lee is more hated in the fandom and I do find myself defending him but then I would defend Kara as well.

If you are shipper, you know that sometimes you just want to smack them in the head and say 'What were you thinking?' I've had those moments for Kara, Lee and Kara/Lee.

I love them no matter what, whether they are kicking cylon ass or just comforting each other, through thick and thin.

I shall forever love my pilots!

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

If you are shipper, you know that sometimes you just want to smack them in the head and say 'What were you thinking?' I've had those moments for Kara, Lee and Kara/Lee.

Oh, yes, but that is part of their charm, right?

(and I love them no matter what too, I have never been so fascinated by a fictional couple. They were/are the best :)).