No Takebacks

What an excellent topic! Pilots be lyin' to each all ALL THE TIME.

I keep wanting to turn the question on its head and think about the times when they actually told each other the truth (instead of dancing around/deflecting/denying). That might even be harder to come up with....

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...not to mention painful.

It's why I love UB so much - it's one of the few times where they actually admit it out loud and just for a little bit, stop the cycle of dancing/deflecting/denial. (and then comes the morning after, and PAIN)

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Times they don't lie to each other... **ticks off fingers**

UB
End of Captain's Hand ("Are we okay?")
The Second Brig Scene ("I believe you")
Islanded ("I don't care")

I'm trying to think of other times but I'm comming up blank. Thoughts?

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Home Part 1 (well, after Lee was done being angry "I'm your friend, I love you.", though Kara deflected that one)
And for the briefest moment in Maelstrom ("Whatever it takes.")

And it wasn't about their relationship itself, but they were frank with each other in RS1 when Kara was given the suicide mission and asked Lee to back her up.

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I think it's those little moment I love best-- when the truth breaks out despite all the attempts to the contrary.

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Oh, and this is not shippy but RS1 and 2 - Kara about the assassination, Lee about wanting to die.

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In season four they are honest to each other. They realized what they meant to each other, but also resigned to the reality of their situation. That's why you feel alot of love between them but also definitely regret about how things had gone.

I love the end of UB could after they beat the crap out of each other, and broke down each others walls. The simple truth comes out is how much they missed each other. Also by extension that despite EVERYTHING they still love each other.

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callmeonetrack.livejournal.com

Lee lied to Dee pretty frequently about his feelings for Kara, in the middle of his proposal when she says he's in love with Kara, he immediately denies it, and then in TABFYW I think, he talks about how he's not really in love with Kara anymore or something...it's definitely past tense...and then he eyefraks her across the room before he even finishes his sentence.

Kara is fairly forthright with Sharon in UBEX and with Sam when he asks her in TABFYW. I could never really believe her line "I love Sam, I hate Sam, I love Lee, I hate Lee, I have to cheat to keep the pieces straight" had any truth to it. I don't believe she felt the same about them and was just confused. I do think the writers wanted us to believe that though maybe.

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*nods* seriously, TAB was ALL ABOUT THE LIES. I don't think there's another scene where the expressions of the actors contradicted basically every single line of dialogue so hard.

As for the line in EoJ, I never thought it was about her feelings so much as it was about what she thought she should do/feel? Still trying tothrash it out in my head here - I do believe she loved Sam, but not the same way she loved Lee.

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kdbleu.livejournal.com

Yeah, I've always taken the "I love Sam. I hate Sam. I love Lee. I hate Lee. I have to cheat to keep all the pieces straight,' as Kara trying, while in a huge amount of pain and under the influence of drugs, to sort things out specifically for Dee. She would have said something different if Sam had rescued her or if Lee had. But it more about justifying her own actions and feelings than truth or lies.

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under the influence of drugs

And there you go. DRUGS. That ain't no soul-baring confession right there.

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word-vomity.livejournal.com

drugs make me honest-er...not that I do drugs... *awkward shuffle*

But I also like to interpret that line with a beach of sand. Coulda meant anything! ;)

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That line always confused me and I never knew what to think of it. According to RDM, the scene was originally much longer.

"I like this little chat that they have, this was a longer chat as scripted and shot, where Kara talked more about Lee, and her problems with Lee, and her— the emotional stuff with Dualla, and there was more give and take between the two. It was a scene that I wrote, and it wasn't that good, we saw it on camera and I just felt it was a little overwrought and a little too melodramatic, a little too soapy, and it just— it- less is more is the cliché, and it's true. You could get away with a lot less being said in this scene then what I initially thought."
Terry: Just the fact that these two women are in this situation—
RDM: -is plenty.
Terry: —it's plenty.
RDM: You don't need them to really bare their souls and it doesn't play.

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kdbleu.livejournal.com

I'm not sure that Kara's supposed to be making much sense, the whole moment is just impossible if you think about it too much, really. And I think this Terry: Just the fact that these two women are in this situation— says a lot to that point.

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Well he bold faced lied when he said he chose Dee, no he didn't, he chose Kara and Kara broke his heart so Dee was the consolation prize basically.

Lee never really admitted to Dee that he loved Kara, he sort of copped to it a little in TAB at the end but he was at best only partially honest. He never admitted the affair they had.

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There were the times Wineguns and Taragel pointed out, of course, but most ot the time they lied by omission rather than by words, especially when talking to each other. When they did lie, though, they didn't do it by halves. That is a fact. In that regards, besides what has already been mentioned, a piece of dialogue from UB comes to mind.

Kara: Been there, done that. I guess it just rubbed us both the wrong way.
Lee (to Dee): What she is talking about was a long time ago. A long time ago.It didn't mean anything.

There were also those times when they were only half lying.

Lee: If you wanna die, I'll open an airlock for you.

Lee: I hope you find him, Kara. I really do.

But mostly, as far as I remember, what caused more problems were the things that remained unsaid rather than the opposite.

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lizziec

I don't think Lee was lying when he said he wanted Kara to find Sam - that I think was completely genuine, because I think he wanted Kara to be happy. I don't think he anticipated the degree to which Kara would be into Sam to the exclusion of everything else when she brought him back though, or the degree to which seeing that would destroy him.

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*nods* yes, this exactly. I think the sentiment was honest - Lee really did want her to be happy, he'd seen her go through the events of Scar and how being "hung up on a dead guy" nearly destroyed her and he didn't want her to go through that again - even if it meant that he himself couldn't have Kara the way he wanted.

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I agree with you. Strangely enough, considering what I said before. I just tried to point out that, despite that wish for Kara to be happy, part of him must have wished she didn't find him, hence the "half lying" I used.

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Oh yeah another quick thing. I felt that Kara (in that moment at least) wanted him to say more.

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I feel it was partially honest. He did want Kara to be happy and thought Sam was what she wanted. However I think he wanted to tell her what he did later in UB. You can see it in his face when he says it and his face after she leaves there was more he wanted to say.

So it was definitely not a lie, but let's just say not the whole truth.

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I think it was a lot of things, really - he wanted her to find Sam because he knew it was important to her and he wanted her to be happy, but I think he hoped that if she found him maybe she'd get over the dead-guy hangup (and eventually maybe even break up with him) and maybe then pilots could stand a chance.

So much unsaid in that scene *sigh* Kara knew it too, but I don't think either of them were ready to say it/deal right at that moment.

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Well, as I said, I think he was "half" lying there. I totally agree with what you said. He wanted her to be happy, even if it meant being with someone else. I love him for that. I have often heard people say Lee was too passive and that he should have pursued Kara more strongly and that in this case that meant she should have told her he loved her and wanted her to be with him and not Sam (or something like that). I don't see things quite like that. I think after Scar, when she was so direct with him (There is nothing here.), part of him didn't believe her, but part of him (the insecure part, the one that was afraid to need her) was confused and it really moves me to see that despite everything he wanted her to be happy. However, I think part of him (the shadowy part that lives inside us) was lying, he didn't really want her to find Sam and risk really losing her. So, not really a lie, but not really true, either. I don't know if what I said makes a lot of sense, but that's the way I see it. *shrugs*

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I think Lee really wanted Kara to succeed because he knew that the feeling of helplessness was driving her mad. She worked really hard to get the rescue plan approved (why Adama/Roslin agreed to that I'll never understand) and she was desperate to prove to everyone that it was the right decision. It was a very dangerous mission and most of all Lee was worried that she might not come back from it. I think the goodbye scene is mostly about that, he feels like he should tell her how he feels, tell her that she "shouldn't risk unnecessarily during the rescue and make sure to come back to him" but the moment is inappropriate, because she is about to board the raptor and her mind is focused on the mission and he doesn't want to start messing with her head at this pint. But the silent look they exchange says it all and Kara understands. Lee is saying to her that he wants her to be happy and that he really hopes that her plan will work and she will successfully bring all the people from Caprica including Sam, because he understands how much this means to her.

I wonder if he really felt that threatened about Sam at this point. He knew Kara only met him for a few days and thus barely knew him. Did he really think that she was in love with him and if he comes back, it's the end of any chance of romance between them? I doubt that. Besides, he's with Dee, yet he clearly still hopes that maybe eventually he and Kara will get their shit together, and finally get what they always wanted.

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I wonder if he really felt that threatened about Sam at this point.

I think he did. I mean, he probably didn't think Sam was the love of her life. I never bought the idea that she could fall in love like that in just a few days, especially considering the whole mess with Lee. But Lee was jealous of Baltar, who was clearly never more than a one night stand. So, yes, I think he felt threatened by Sam, even if he thought that he was just an excuse she was clinging on to in order to keep them apart (and that's what I think, not necessarily what he thought). Besides, he was going through his own depression fase at the time and she had stated in no uncertain terms that she didn't want anything from him other than a fleeting physical encounter. Even if he doubted that to be true, part of him believed it and he had resigned himself to be just her friend, but that doesn't mean he didn't resent Sam for making it easier for Kara to stay away, for appearing in her life and causing such an impact.

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callmeonetrack.livejournal.com

I can't decide if she believed what she was saying or not in the Under the Wing scene when Kara says "Maybe that was all we were ever supposed to be."

Lee looks like he doesn't believe it.

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word-vomity.livejournal.com

Wait? She says that?! I remember 'i guess that's all we'll ever be now' but I don't recall that she said that's all they were ever supposed to be! If she said that I may die. Noo! She didn't say that right? Take it back!

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callmeonetrack.livejournal.com

Oops. That's the one I mean. I guess I just have a more nihilistic view of it in light of the finale.

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word-vomity.livejournal.com

Close call! That coulda ruined my whole day! :P

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I think deep down they always knew when the other was lying, even if they themselves got confused at times.

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"I think deep down they always knew when the other was lying, even if they themselves got confused at times."
Not just deep down. I think canon is pretty clear on this one. It's very obvious that they don't buy each other's bullshit like "there's nothing here" or "it's all we'll ever be".

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I don't think it's all that clear that they don't buy the lies. I think their situation is so confused that part of them don't believe the lies but their insecure part gives them pause. That adds to their conflict. Especially Lee's, I guess, because, unlike Kara, he never there was nothing between them. So, I think, a lot of the time, he was torn between what he felt in his bone to be the truth and what she said and did. We often focus a lot on the whys behind Kara's hesitation and dismiss Lee's insecurities and fears. They were both so frakked up. *sighs*

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Yeah, you are right. They are both unbelievably frakked up. I'm not saying that Lee is super confident and absolutely certain that Kara loves him above everybody else but I think he knows that he means a lot to her and that the connection they have is pretty damn special. What he thinks is that despite the fact that she loves him, she prefers to just stay friends with him and he understands that and respects that. I think at some points (early seasons and after TAB), Kara is of the same opinion (Lee loves me but just wants to be a friend).

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kdbleu.livejournal.com

I think this a place where Kara is saying something she might like to be true but probably is not. I think more than lying this is Kara's MO.

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I think Kara wants to believe it ("I guess that's all we'll ever be now), esp. since she seems to know she's doomed and this is her attempt at letting him go.

She also said that after all this, they were "right back where we started." Which she SAYS is as CAG and problem pilot, but in their actual timeline is LOVE AT FIRST SIGHT.

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It was definitely attraction at first sight, I think the love probably came tiny bit later and piece by piece as they started to know each other better (that's just my view). They definitely started the show as two people in love.

I think that's what Kara meant, they've been through so much together and have tried to be just friends, family, colleagues or even lovers and throughout all that their feelings never changed. Now they are back at the beginning: loving each other but unable to be together, fighting it and trying to be just friends.

(deleted comment)

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I guess part of it was that he'd seen her go through emotional breakdowns before (in AoC and Scar), and he definitely knows something's wrong but was hoping she'd pull through like she did before. And if he had enough of an insight into her to know that revoking her flight status would take away all she had left......well, at least his attempt at reassurance worked for a little bit.

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"Because I'm just a CAG, and you're just a pilot."

I thought that was sarcasm rather than a lie.

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scifishipper.livejournal.com

Part of the problem with these LIES is that often the other one believed them. I think Lee really did believe Kara when she said "There's nothing here" and that it helped push Lee towards Dee. I also think Kara believed Lee when he said "I hope you find him" although disagreeing with what the others have said above, I don't think he meant it. I think he had no idea what else to say and it would have seemed pretty shitty to pull the rug out from under her. (I know this is not a popular opinion.) Lee lies to himself better 'n anyone.

All this lying to each other and to themselves. DNW. So painful.

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I think a part of Lee believed Kara in Scar, not about there actually being nothing between them (because the kiss before she stormed out basically proved that was a lie) but about how she wanted things to be between them - ie that they were attracted to each other and in the moment she was ok with acting on that but absolutely wanted no part of a relationship with him.

I do agree that it probably pushed him a little harder towards Dee, though. It's kind of a writerly accident since they originally planned for those two to be sleeping together by Black Market, but the way it actually shapes up is more believable.

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scifishipper.livejournal.com

Yes, agreed, Lee took it to mean that she didn't want anything between them. :( Clearly there was at least SOMETHING between them. :D:D Rawr.

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onlyariana.livejournal.com

When she says that in Scar it always reminds me of when someone is asking for a promise of silence on a subject or compliance in a cover up like, "I was never here. Do you understand me? I was never here." kind of a thing.

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selene23.livejournal.com

For me, in that scene, Lee is saying what he thought Kara was willing him to say. I always thought she was afraid Lee would tell her something she didn’t want to hear at that moment (“Don’t go, stay with me, I love you”). Since Scar, in my opinion, Lee has resigned himself to be nothing more than a friend to Kara. So as a good friend he is telling her what she needs to hear even if he doesn’t believe it.

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