DPP: Confession

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

Monday of us who confessed to not liking Maelstrom, despite it being a Kara-centric episode. So I was wondering what other deep dark confessions we have.

I’ll go first. I find Scar absolutely painful to watch with exception of the scene where she and Lee drink alone together and when they make out. I cried the first time I watched Kara in the film room and have only made it half way through that scene since.

Now it’s your turn… 

Comments

[ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com]

Lee did not repeatedly sleep with a hooker. That is all.

[bouncy-nut.livejournal.com]

1. I hate the idea that Kara slept around on Sam during their marriage with people other than Lee.

2. Equally disgusting to me is that Kara was sooooo in love with Sam after her random fling with him on Caprica that she couldn't get him out of her head while she was with Lee during Scar. Puke.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

I can get the Kara can't get Sam out of her head in Scar, but I've never understood how a random fling translated into a relationship based on anything other than guilt.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Ha. I always kind of liked the idea that she slept around on Sam.

[lotus79.livejournal.com]

Well in my personal canon, Sam somehow figured out she slept wih someone in UB but not who it was. So she did cheat on Sam, but only with Lee. Hehehe.

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

I like Maelstrom but it makes me weep everytime I watch it.

Can't stand to watch Black Market. Lee would never get a rent-a-family.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Heh. I do not like Maelstrom either. It is the beginning of the end for Kara as the character I always knew and loved and it makes me incredibly sad. Katee is beautiful and amazing in it, of course, but it makes me very angry to watch it. I also do not like the Under the Wing scene. Hate it, in fact, and cannot watch it. It represents everything that pisses me off about RDM and his efforts to reduce the K/L relationship to friendship and nothing more. :( That episode as a whole is the nail in the coffin of Kara/Lee. *raaaaaage*

I used to dislike Scar, but now I adore it. I've re-watched many times and each time I am just enthralled by Kara's struggle and Katee's wonderful acting. Gah. Sooooo good.

I also used to dislike the 33 smack you in the mouth scene because I felt terribly for Lee who was feeling like a frak up and getting bitched at. (Over-identify much?) Now, though, I enjoy it a lot. ;)

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

because I felt terribly for Lee who was feeling like a frak up and getting bitched at.

Not over-identifying, this is being protective. ;)

[entaiaime.livejournal.com]

I don't like the Under the Wing scene either. The whole "I guess that's all we'll ever be now" pisses me off so bad! It's just a nail in the coffin, as you said.

[zenzero42.livejournal.com]

maybe this isn't what you had in mind but: I have to confess that I love the poof.

because in some twisted way I think it's the poof that has kept my Kara/Lee love so strong in those years. I shipped A/R too when bsg was aired. Then they ended together, and now I'm quite annoyed by the invasion of A/R fics: I'm like, "we get it, they were in love with each other blah blah... but seriously, everything we needed to hear about them was said, so shut up crazy fangirls"

while for Kara and Lee, I always want to come back to them, wondering if Kara was happy and if a better ending was possible, reading UST, fluffy, porn, AU, academy, post-daybreak fics... everything.
and then I stop for a moment, finding some comfort in the notion that Kara saved all of them, I admire my heroic Kara, maybe I cry a little... just to come back reading an AU-fluffy-pilots-baby fic that takes place in NY...
... becouse this is what the poof did to me: I still want to explore all the possibility about them.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

This is just the kind of confession I was thinking. Yay!!!

[wand3rlust.livejournal.com]

I have a love/hate thing with Maelstrom. It's beautifully shot, acted and edited. As a vidder I love the imagery from it but in the grand scheme of things the episode itself does not make much sense to me.

Kara suddenly being emo/depressed/cracking under pressure (there's absolutely no lead up to this in prior episodes) is sort of a mystery to me. It really goes against the way her character has been written since the mini. I'd have believed it more if it was shown Kara was slowly breaking down over the previous few episodes. That said, I have to repeat how much I do love the imagery. Also, the background about her mother and even "creepy not-Leoben" being her guide.

Still, Kara's death will always be a sore point with me. It looked like exactly what it was: Someone pulled this storyline out of their butt for the shock value. Which is just ultra LAAAAAAZY writing to me. To top it all off it was never truly resolved and really screwed up not only Kara/Lee but so many other story lines along with it.

[entaiaime.livejournal.com]

Kara suddenly being emo/depressed/cracking under pressure (there's absolutely no lead up to this in prior episodes) is sort of a mystery to me. It really goes against the way her character has been written since the mini.

I completely agree with this whole post, but this in particular. I hated that her death was used for shock value and that's what it was because there was no lead up (like you said). Grr.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Mmmh… When I first watched Maelstrom I was ok with it –mainly because I knew Kara would eventually come back and I had so much hope for her and Lee right then… Now, in retrospect, I don’t like it –I know that Maelstrom is supposed to be read in a “positive” way, as Kara finally makes some sort of peace with his mum and willingly chooses to go into the nebula to fulfill her destiny--, but the way I see it know… well, it’s just her comitting suicide, and I don’t see anything beautiful in this twisted, horrifying “peace” as she kills herself. Ugh. (That being said, I do love the under the wing scene. I think it’s one of their most mature interactions –all about trust, acceptance, growth. And underneath the friendship, I always sensed a strong romantic vibe. I always thought that if they could get past all the obstacles ahead, they would ultimately be in a place where they could make their relationship work.

As for Scar? I love every bit of it.

My dark confession? (well, I don’t think it’s dark at all…). I dislike K/S so much. I just can’t. And it’s funny, because I used to be ok with Sam, and Kara’s love for Sam --although their dynamic in S3 always made me cringe, I always accepted Kara’s love for him (you can love two people in different ways, right?). But then RDM tried to make it all about K/S, and I just couldn’t take it. Kara’s “I love you” to Sam, if totally understandable given the circumstances, makes me cry for all the wrong reasons. It seemed so unfair to me. Sigh.

[eternal-nomad1.livejournal.com]

That's exactly how I think of Maelstrom.

[zenzero42.livejournal.com]

I have an other dark confession:

I screamed with joy when Dee killed herself.

I'm that bad.

[wand3rlust.livejournal.com]

awww that is kinda dark. I just chalk that up to another storyline I didn't understand. Then again S4 is a big fat mess IMO. I get that Dee was depressed, but she never seemed suicidal to me and it seems the writers just did it again for shock because they didn't have to explain it all. Plus it didn't serve any actual purpose... It's not like it changed Lee's storyline at all.

[eternal-nomad1.livejournal.com]

It's not news for people who know me, but I can't stand UB. It's a beautiful piece of cinematography and the acting in it is phenomenal, but I hate what Kara did to Lee (yes, I understand why, so no need to reopen this debate). AFAIK, this was the real beginning of the end for them, it got them to a place where total trust was no longer possible with everything else stemming from it (that is, of course, if you view the story as a consistent development and not a product of RDM changing his mind).

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

I hate what Kara did to Lee (yes, I understand why, so no need to reopen this debate). AFAIK, this was the real beginning of the end for them, it got them to a place where total trust was no longer possible with everything else stemming from it i love this comment.

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

I'm so glad someone else does not like Scar. It's not only a primarily Kara/Sam episode that falls back on a crappy one night stand instead of dealing with the trauma of being captured by the enemy and operated on while she was drugged up by them (you know, how she got that SCAR) but it's also a terribly constructed episode in terms of the editing!

Another confession... I'm not sure Kara could have been happy on Earth 2.0... while I'm sad that she's gone and dead and whatever... the only way I could have seen her living on that planet is if the rest of 4.0 and 4.5 had been completely different.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

It's not only a primarily Kara/Sam episode that falls back on a crappy one night stand instead of dealing with the trauma of being captured by the enemy and operated on while she was drugged up by them (you know, how she got that SCAR)

They never dealt well with her actual emotional trauma, which is really stupid and annoying. Gah!

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I wonder if they should have cancelled the show after Pegasus.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I think most of my confessions are old news *shrugs* But there are a few, I guess, that I haven't talked much about before.

One is that I don't like Lee's first big scene with his Dad in the mini. I love Jamie, but he's trying too hard in that scene and it doesn't come across to me as real fury and grief. I didn't *believe* him.

Another is that - based on his interviews and podcasts - I like RDM a lot, and I think he's overall quite a good writer and generally thoughtful about his own work and in some instances his self-criticism is right on the money, which is a rare thing when someone is evaluating his own work. I think he made some big mistakes with his storytelling, but I admire everything he did right as well. None of us want to criticize the actors or attack them for their interpretation of their characters, even when they wholeheartedly promoted storylines and interpretations that enrage us. We love them, so we don't get as mad or call them morons or failures when they say things about their characters that we disagree with. But RDM doesn't get much charity :) He was in charge, and the buck stops there, so to a certain extent if we hated certain parts of the show then he is the person most responsible. But, if that's our logic then we should also hold him most responsible for the things we loved about the show, too. I just feel a bit defensive of him, sometimes, because the criticism tends to be so harsh.

[zenzero42.livejournal.com]

But, if that's our logic then we should also hold him most responsible for the things we loved about the show, too.

I completely agree with you.

[nazkey.livejournal.com]

Like Rachel, I think my confessions are nothing new and you've all heard them before, but here goes.

I didn't like Lee AT ALL until he resigned from the military. He annoyed the crap out of me and I never felt that he was a good friend to Kara. Maybe it's because I relate so deeply with Kara and I understood her reasoning in almost every instance (yes, even the NC arc makes sense to me) and it just pissed me off that for someone who claims/portrays so much love for her, Lee was such a crappy friend to her. Constantly judging and wanting her to be different from who she is. I also didn't like that at the end of the worlds, he couldn't get over his anger with his dad and have a real relationship with the ONLY FAMILY HE HAD LEFT! His idealism was admirable at times, but I always felt that Lee was just too stuck in his own head and trying to be someone he wasn't because he never really stood up for himself. When he resigned, he "clicked" for me and I started liking him.

I HATED Lee's proposal to Dee and I hated that she accepted it. It was such a lame, 5-year-old asking for candy kind of proposal and it was HUGE disservice to Dee's character arc up to that point for her to accept. In some ways, I could've accepted the concept of Fat!Lee if Dee had also rejected him. But for both of them to settle like that was just awful and I really hated it.

And this isn't news to any of you (I don't think), but I can't STAND Roslin. I still scream at the TV for her to shut the frak up even during our re-watches. She went from being a nurturing, earth mother type to the most egotistical, megalomaniac, Machiavellian leader ever and then when things didn't end up the way she wanted them to (i.e. Earth 1.0), she just gave up. Horrible, horrible leader. I hate her and her manipulative ways and in some ways, can't stand that Adama is such putty in her hands.

I don't think this is news to anyone either, but I love Baltar. I think his character arc is the only one that was fully realized in the series. Yes, it's crappy that of all the people, he's the one who ended up with a happy ending, but that's just life. His happy ending was a testament to the show's trying to remain in the gray and realistic. We all know that in RL bad people don't always end up paying for their sins.

And finally, with regards to our awesome pilots, I HATE the table frak scene. This is all part of the whole notion that Kara is a thoughtless whore arc that I despise. I don't understand where/how that started. There's never any evidence of her sleeping around other than two instances of people talking about it - Lee's accusation about the major and Sam's angry words about Lee not being the first one - both of which were spurred from pure jealousy. The table frak to me was a huge, huge departure from who Kara was. I really doubt that even when drunk, she'd try to frak her boyfriend/fiance's brother on the table with Zak still in the same room. I felt that it was a contrived way to prove to us that yes, Kara was promiscuous. I don't buy it.

Of course the pigeon was all kinds of stupid, but we all agree on that one. It didn't mean what they thought it might mean ;-)

[wand3rlust.livejournal.com]

ITA about Lee's proposal to Dee. It would have been perfect had it ended at her "And what, they were having a two for one special?"

[velvety2010.livejournal.com]

I hated black market with a passion! Lee's actions felt so out of left field that I really had trouble with it. I remember hearing RDM say that they came up with that storyline to show the audience that Lee's not a traditional, perfect hero. Because none of us could have seen his more subtly presented flaws! But here's the funny thing. I recently rewatched black market for the first time. I kept waiting for Kara to pop up and help save Lee. It didn't happen! Then I went to deleted scenes -apparently watching the show on dvd the first time around has blurred the line between aired and deleted scenes for me. Yep, you guessed it, not there either! I believe the story that was stuck in my head as canon was from a fanfic afterall. From the possibilities series I believe. without that little consolation, I hate the episode.

While my mind wasn't powerful enough to fix what I consider major blunders like maelstorm or DB2, I kind of find the little mental "fixes" like my black market one cute. There was no excuse for maelstorm. With DB2, while I was heartbroken by it, I felt like RDM wrote the pilots story to the ground with the last kara/sam interaction which I hated with a passion, followed by the first kara/lee interaction on the table... There have been some great fixes in fanfic since then but at the time I didn't really have a way to get the pilots out of that green field. Other great fandom writers proved me wrong and I am grateful to them for it. I now have multiple post poof stories that I love.

With Scar, the "there is nothing here" scene is stuck in my head as an example of great acting. It is so painful to watch. In much of canon Lee comes off as the one that is more in love and that inbalance in sentiment kills me.

And lastly, I've said this before, I hated the kara/ sam/ lee first encounter scene in the bunkroom with a passion! Too painful for Lee and too insensitive of Kara. Hate it!

Hmm interestingly enough it appears that I identify with Lee more than Kara. I guess most of us have been on the "i am more in love with you" side of the equation one time or another versus "i think i love multiple people and am thoroughly confused".

Wheew, this felt like therapy! :)

[wand3rlust.livejournal.com]

hmmm dirty confessions *rubs hands together* I love this stuff!

1. When Sam first showed up I tried to really hard to not like him (really hard!) but dang it if Trucco didn't win me over being all charming and whatnot. That said, I didn't think it was going to go any further than a fling on Caprica, so I didn't feel so bad liking him. It was only in Scar that I realized they were going to bring him back - and THAT annoyed me greatly. As rayruz and bouncy_nut mentioned above, it was equally frustrating that Kara was focusing her I need to return to Caprica obsession soley on Sam instead of dealing with the actual trauma she went through on Caprica. In the end, I didn't like Sam/Kara together at all and wish they'd have found better use for him.

2. This one makes me feel like a horrible shipper, but I often find myself wondering had Zak not died or if he'd come back as a cylon if I would've shipped Kara/Zak over Kara/Lee. hmmm I'm pretty sure Kara/Lee would've won out in the end due to their insane chemistry, but still I do ponder it...

3. Lee ALMOST lost me as a fan when he was "slut shaming" Kara in KLG. The only thing that saved it was her punching him, I think. Then later his being so happy she was back in Home helped a ton.

4. I'm completely on board with the Roslin hate. Not sure anyone can hate her as much as our lovely Naz, but I don't like Roslin at all.

5. I find Helo/Sharon (in canon) incredibly boring and kinda selfish and hypocritical when push comes to shove. But that's a loooong rant I won't get into just now. I LOVE them in fanon most the time though.

Ok, that's all for now. I'm sure I'll have more later.

[zenzero42.livejournal.com]

I find Helo/Sharon (in canon) incredibly boring and kinda selfish and hypocritical when push comes to shove. But that's a loooong rant I won't get into just now. I LOVE them in fanon most the time though.

THIS.

and I love Helo as Kara's bff a lot! but Helo/Athena... really annoying.

... while Chief/Boomer managed to make me cry in STWOM

[anastashial.livejournal.com]

I've never really been big on hating chars. That said on BSG I could have done without Tory, and I wasn't too thrilled with Dee when she left Lee. Although someone told me they felt Dee did it because she thought it was what he needed I think she left when he really needed her the most.

I've never really been a fan of Baltar and the entire him as spiritual leader thing could have been axed as far as I'm concerned. Ditto for a lot of the Cylon spirituality stuff. I never really did get the point of the entire Opera House storyline either.

One chars I liked that I saw a lot of people dissing was Cally. I wasn't all that thrilled with what they did with her after the crash though. After what happened on the Astral Queen I would have loved to see some more friendship interaction, of the big brother-little sister type, between her and Lee. Some might say not appropriate because of fraternization issues, but that didn't stop things from happening with Dee.

I agree on Kara's cruelty when she and Sam were in the officer's quarters the first time and Lee showed up.

[themonkeytwin.livejournal.com]

Okay, I'll confess: I really like Kara/Sam. It's not OTP, but I don't actually see it as being in conflict with Kara/Lee OTP either (same goes for Lee/Dee), and I like their relationship and their journey together.

Here's how I see it: Sam just gave himself to Kara. Unconditionally and wholly. Dee did something similar with Lee, although not quite so unconditionally. He saw who she was, or enough to love her with his whole being, no matter what she did to him or how much she reciprocated, and I kind of love that. Sam belonged to Kara, and I think Zak probably did too. Dee belonged to Lee. Lee and Kara are the kind of people that really means a lot to, which explains so much of their behaviour toward them and each other; if someone has given them their wholehearted allegiance, their own senses of responsibility and loyalty insists that they honour that, in their own frakked up ways.

But Kara never belonged to anyone but Lee, and Lee never belonged to anyone but Kara. And different rules apply to that kind of relationship, partly because belonging to someone is a whole new level of scary and risk than someone belonging to you, and partly because when you belong to someone, you're not in control of that relationship (as opposed to K/S, K/Z and L/D). For one thing, you can also justify hurting them much more easily. To me, this makes sense of their choices while maintaining the clear OTP between them. And only reinforces the OTP. So when I watch Sam and Kara together, I really like what they can give to one another even though it's completely unequal.

[eridani8.livejournal.com]

That's an interesting way to think about a very messy bunch of interactions. I think you're definitely on to something, because it does seem to be a very conceptually attractive way of reconciling the sometimes contradictory choices K/L make from time to time.

[eridani8.livejournal.com]

I really, I mean REALLY, disliked the spiritual mumbo-jumbo parts of the BSG plot, and totally resented the fact that Kara's character got so caught up in the resolution of that part of the story. I was really disappointed that a show which did such an excellent job early on in it's life of creating, what is for scifi at least, a substantial level of verisimilitude and realism, ended up plunging head long into a fantasy plot. I thought the opera house plot, 'Kara Thrace and her Special Destiny', even the Arrow of Apollo stuff back in season 1/2, were all a bit lame. The writers wrote themselves into a complicated mess and only seemed to be able to think of a way out of it by suspending the rules of reality.

I think the best science-fiction should be plausible- i.e. in a slightly different world/time, or with superior technology. When you start relying on a total suspension of disbelief to resolve your plot lines, that's just a cop-out and your story starts to look like it lacks internal consistency.

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

So, kind of everybody made their confessions. I joined in some, I agreed silently to others and disagreed also silently to some opinions. I'm late to say my own due to RL. So here it goes nothing, because it's nothing really new i guess.

Firstly, i case there is somebody that doesn't know, I relate for very personal reasons to Lee. Probably more than I related to any other character. The only other that comes to mind is Dean W. So, in light of this, my opinions are always going to differ a little from the ones of you who relate so deeply with Kara as I know some do.

On the from of what i was really bugged about:
- Fat!Lee because it was going on for a while. I can get the fact that he let himself go for some time and sulked (?). But to go on like that for a year or something while still having a sort of a good relationship with his wife and the admiration and respect of his crew is strange, and out of character, whatever you want to call it.
- While I like Sam, I started to dislike Dee when she proved that for as much as she loved Apollo and Major Adama, she really didn't liked or understood Lee. And the fact that they made her leave when he leaves the military and sort of come back when he is the VP doesn't go well at all with me.
- Somebody mentioned this and I should say it also. I liked Cally but not what they did after she died. Making her cheat like that on the Chief... nop, not good.
- Story wise I can rationalize a lot of things, and I'm willing to accept a lot of things that I don't like but I have a BIG problem with DB2. and is not the poof. as i said a lot of times, I have a 'peace treaty' with the poof and reading fics helps maintaining it. My problem with the end is not that Kara poofed (even though i would of really liked a hug there) is that Lee is all alone. That is all sorts of wrong for me. I mean, the guy was there and supported everybody on their journeys - Adama, Roslin, Kara, even Baltar. who is there to help him in his journey on E2.0? I ask this because in my personal canon his destiny doesn't stop at helping people with theirs and idk, shaking on an alliance with D'Ánna and sending the FTL ready ships into the sun. For me his destiny is to lead the remaining of people in this new adventure. And he is all alone. And not only romantically (don't get me started on the waste of a perfectly good bunch of DNA) but in all of the other ways.

ok, i should probably stop here. even if i probably left a lot out but still.

[eridani8.livejournal.com]

I hear you on the Lee being all alone business- the show portrayed his ending as if this was finally his chance to grow into himself, lay down his burdens and what not. I thought it was a damn tragedy, personally. To be in an unfamiliar world with all your nearest and dearest (Kara, the Admiral, Dee) dead or gone? Sounds like a very bleak existence to me.