I think that at this point in their relationship, Lee is very accustom to putting his feelings for Kara aside, in this case because he wants her to be happy even if it's not with him.
In fact, I was thinking earlier that as much as I want Lee to say something different or do something to stop Kara, all I could think was that Kara would end up mad at him anyway for waiting so long or some equally picky thing. Agh, frustrating.
How conveniently I can forget about Dee as Lee's girlfriend. HA And Lee for that matter, she wasn't a consideration at all when he was ready to upset Kara's applecart. Hmm
I don't know if she would have been happy, but she definetely needed some heavy pushing and the sooner it started the better. And right then there wasn't really anything going on between her and Anders. It had just been a fling she was hanging on to in order to prevent herself from going where she really wanted to go but felt she shouldn't/couldn't.
I think she would've been. She was pretty happy to go with it in UB (and I don't think that was alcohol based). I think Kara waited a long time for a sign/move from Lee (as she implies to Sharon in UBEX), and he never really gave her any indications that he felt much more than friendship for her. Even in Scar.
I see your point, but I think there are some differences to be considered. First of all, in they had plenty of time to make declarations of love and to give in to the physical aspect of it. So, yes, she was happy. But it didn't last long since she ran away in the morning and she was clearly not happy about it (her face when she ran into Lee later the following morning was gutting), but she did it aanyway. Now, even if Lee had made a move in this scene, she was about to go on a mission and they didn't have enough time to really connect and freely express themselves, especially considering she was so hung up on the idea that she felt something for Anders AND his very live was at stake at the moment. So, I think part of her might have felt some satisfaction at hearing Lee being straight with her about his feelings. But overall, she would have just fled faster than she did on NC and with a good excuse to do so (the mission). All in all, I think she would have been more confused than happy, really.
I think Kara waited a long time for a sign/move from Lee (as she implies to Sharon in UBEX), and he never really gave her any indications that he felt much more than friendship for her.
Well, here is a point where we just have to agree to disagree, I guess, since we have already talked about this before. As I see it, not being certain of Lee's feelings for her or Lee not being certain of her feelings for him was never the real issue between them. Deep down they both knew it but had their own reasons for keeping their distance - Kara's self-worth issues and her belief she was a cancer who destroyed those she loved, Lee's fear of needing someone, their fear of being hurt by giving in to feeling that ran too deep and they couldn't control or understand, their guilt over Zac, etc. But if one of them had more reason than the other to have doubts (which on the surface they had, because it was a way for them to protect themselves) I myself believe it was Lee because Kara actually had said out loud that she didn't have feelings for him (and even then, he didn't quite believe her), whereas he had never said anything like that to her . Yes, he might not have come out right and said he loved her, but he never said he didn't either. So, in short, they both knew instinctively how the other felt but they were both afraid to do something about it. They were both subtle in showing their love through looks and handshakes and hugs instead of actual words. But she was the only one who actually denied it.
I think not being certain of Lee's feelings was a very real issue for Kara.
It's all in her line in UBEX "Are you sure I'm what you want?" She couldn't quite believe she was. And she ran not because she wasn't happy with Lee in those few hours, but because she couldn't believe he would be happy with her in the long run. Survival tactics.
I mean obviously we'll never know what would have happened if he'd said "Before you go, I have to tell you I'm in love with you, because I might not get the chance again." The writers had already boxed them into the QoD, since he was already with Dee and clearly Anders was coming back and we knew that.
I just think it's kind of unfair that Lee gets this "oh poor baby" treatment for his pining woobie faces and Kara gets "she probably never really loved him or wanted him to be happy anyway". Of course, they never show us any Lee/Dee, which makes it really easy to forget that he's in a relationship, happily frakking another woman on a regular basis, before Kara and Sam even see each other again.
And she ran not because she wasn't happy with Lee in those few hours, but because she couldn't believe he would be happy with her in the long run.
Totally agree.
Here is where I disagree with you. You understand her line in UBEX as meaning she was unsure he truly loved her. And that, therefore, he should have done a better job (then or before that) to convince her and assuage her doubts. As for me, I tend to see that line as having more to do with her self-worth issues. It's almost as if she is purposefully giving him an out - "Are you sure you want ME, this frakked up person who fraks up everything?". If the real, BIG issue for her was the fact she truly questioned his feelings, I don't think she would have given in so easily that night. As you said, when she left the next morning it was because she "couldn't believe HE would be happy with HER", not the other way around.
Now, having said that, I truly love to hear your thoughts and you are absolutely right to say it's unfair to simply see Lee as the "victim" and Kara as the "bad guy". That is not what I think at all. And I don't think for a sec that she didn't love him or wanted him to be happy. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think they are truly equal in both their deep love for each other and in being emotianally dysfunctional. (But I have to point out that , as I see it, the only reason Lee hooked up with Dee was because Kara was so adamant in saying there was nothing between them and because Dee was there for him when he was emotionally and physically wounded, while Kara wasn't.)
Very interesting discussion. I agree with most of what you've said, except that I myself have never regarded this scene as a major missed opportunity or turning point. Lee obviously wasn't going to tell her not to go on this life-saving mission because that would be petty and wrong. He wasn't going to ask her not to act on her feelings for Anders, because he had no right to ask that, especially after she'd told him, directly and recently, that Anders was who she wanted to be with. After "Scar," he was frustrated enough to give up on her and start a relationship with someone else (THAT was the major turning point, I think, not what he says or fails to say here).
His feelings for Dee are casual at best and I think in his heart he knows he would much rather be with Kara, but I think he finds it almost impossible to admit to needing Kara as much as he does, and even if he did admit that to her in this moment I don't think she would decide to be with him after all. They both honestly admitted their feelings on NC, as you say, and she still decided against him. As you've said, I think she's afraid of herself and the intensity and equality of this relationship, and Sam is frankly a lot easier to deal with, a lot more comfortable. And I think Lee finds Dee rather comfortable, though also awkward when his stronger feelings for Kara intrude.
In short, I find it hard to believe that a declaration of feelings at this moment would have changed much. It didn't change much later on when it actually happened. And, this is just my impression, but Kara seems focused on the rescue mission here and a bit impatient with Lee's awkwardness, and I don't actually think she is wanting Lee to ask her to stay, or admit he loves her, or anything like that. I think *she* means it when she says she hopes she finds Sam. And later on, when she gets effusively physical with Sam in front of Lee, I don't think it's an act and I don't think she believes it's cruel -- after all, she's said enough for Lee to know what to expect, and she seems to honestly not care that he's sleeping with another woman. I don't think she's looking to start a relationship with him; quite the opposite, in fact.
I should clarify that I'm not saying that Kara doesn't love Lee. Clearly she does, and she wants him to be happy. As taragel said, those are major reasons why she refuses to get into a relationship with him. That's part of the reason I don't think a declaration on his part at this moment - or later - would have changed that.
I'm sorry, I don't want to make it sound like I'm trying to make Kara the bad guy or that Lee's the only one who deserves sympathy. Not at all. I have sympathy and frustrations with both of them. I'm just not particularly frustrated with Lee here, because I don't think more words from him would have solved Kara's emotional reservations about being with him in any serious sense.
Realistically speaking, you are absolutely right to say this scene was not about missing opportunities and didn't have the potential for becoming a turning point for them. I totally agree with that, for all the reason you pointed out - unlike Scar, which was a very clear turning point for Lee. I'm totally with on that, as well. I'd add that Sacrifice helped him seal the deal for him because that was the moment Dee was there for him when he was down both emotionally and physically whereas Kara was not.
However, although I don't think anything would have really changed if he had poured his heart out just then (and it would have been really OOC for him to do so), part of me wishes he had said more even if it didn't work. Kara is stubborn but as the old saying goes "many little strokes fell great oaks". Wishful thinking, I know, but still...
And later on, when she gets effusively physical with Sam in front of Lee, I don't think it's an act
It was not all an act, but part of it was. I think she was clearly happy with the success of the mission, she had easygoing, comfortable Sam to play with, she was pretty drunk by then, but part of it was for show. She wanted to push Lee away. And I think she did care he was sleeping with another woman because her line about him still being frakking Dee was really petty.
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2010-12-09 10:12 pm (UTC)In fact, I was thinking earlier that as much as I want Lee to say something different or do something to stop Kara, all I could think was that Kara would end up mad at him anyway for waiting so long or some equally picky thing. Agh, frustrating.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-09 10:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-09 10:18 pm (UTC)It's a really great, ansty fight scene in my head, and it doesn't end unhappily. It's just angsty and fight-y on the way. ;)
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Date: 2010-12-09 10:20 pm (UTC)I mean, yeah they can only make a move when the writers let them *shrug* But it's not like Kara's the only "difficult" one in the relationship.
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Date: 2010-12-09 10:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-09 10:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-09 10:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 12:53 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 01:54 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 02:31 am (UTC)I think Kara waited a long time for a sign/move from Lee (as she implies to Sharon in UBEX), and he never really gave her any indications that he felt much more than friendship for her.
Well, here is a point where we just have to agree to disagree, I guess, since we have already talked about this before. As I see it, not being certain of Lee's feelings for her or Lee not being certain of her feelings for him was never the real issue between them. Deep down they both knew it but had their own reasons for keeping their distance - Kara's self-worth issues and her belief she was a cancer who destroyed those she loved, Lee's fear of needing someone, their fear of being hurt by giving in to feeling that ran too deep and they couldn't control or understand, their guilt over Zac, etc. But if one of them had more reason than the other to have doubts (which on the surface they had, because it was a way for them to protect themselves) I myself believe it was Lee because Kara actually had said out loud that she didn't have feelings for him (and even then, he didn't quite believe her), whereas he had never said anything like that to her . Yes, he might not have come out right and said he loved her, but he never said he didn't either. So, in short, they both knew instinctively how the other felt but they were both afraid to do something about it. They were both subtle in showing their love through looks and handshakes and hugs instead of actual words. But she was the only one who actually denied it.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 02:57 am (UTC)It's all in her line in UBEX "Are you sure I'm what you want?" She couldn't quite believe she was. And she ran not because she wasn't happy with Lee in those few hours, but because she couldn't believe he would be happy with her in the long run. Survival tactics.
I mean obviously we'll never know what would have happened if he'd said "Before you go, I have to tell you I'm in love with you, because I might not get the chance again." The writers had already boxed them into the QoD, since he was already with Dee and clearly Anders was coming back and we knew that.
I just think it's kind of unfair that Lee gets this "oh poor baby" treatment for his pining woobie faces and Kara gets "she probably never really loved him or wanted him to be happy anyway". Of course, they never show us any Lee/Dee, which makes it really easy to forget that he's in a relationship, happily frakking another woman on a regular basis, before Kara and Sam even see each other again.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 11:21 am (UTC)Totally agree.
Here is where I disagree with you. You understand her line in UBEX as meaning she was unsure he truly loved her. And that, therefore, he should have done a better job (then or before that) to convince her and assuage her doubts. As for me, I tend to see that line as having more to do with her self-worth issues. It's almost as if she is purposefully giving him an out - "Are you sure you want ME, this frakked up person who fraks up everything?". If the real, BIG issue for her was the fact she truly questioned his feelings, I don't think she would have given in so easily that night. As you said, when she left the next morning it was because she "couldn't believe HE would be happy with HER", not the other way around.
Now, having said that, I truly love to hear your thoughts and you are absolutely right to say it's unfair to simply see Lee as the "victim" and Kara as the "bad guy". That is not what I think at all. And I don't think for a sec that she didn't love him or wanted him to be happy. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think they are truly equal in both their deep love for each other and in being emotianally dysfunctional. (But I have to point out that , as I see it, the only reason Lee hooked up with Dee was because Kara was so adamant in saying there was nothing between them and because Dee was there for him when he was emotionally and physically wounded, while Kara wasn't.)
no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 03:35 am (UTC)His feelings for Dee are casual at best and I think in his heart he knows he would much rather be with Kara, but I think he finds it almost impossible to admit to needing Kara as much as he does, and even if he did admit that to her in this moment I don't think she would decide to be with him after all. They both honestly admitted their feelings on NC, as you say, and she still decided against him. As you've said, I think she's afraid of herself and the intensity and equality of this relationship, and Sam is frankly a lot easier to deal with, a lot more comfortable. And I think Lee finds Dee rather comfortable, though also awkward when his stronger feelings for Kara intrude.
In short, I find it hard to believe that a declaration of feelings at this moment would have changed much. It didn't change much later on when it actually happened. And, this is just my impression, but Kara seems focused on the rescue mission here and a bit impatient with Lee's awkwardness, and I don't actually think she is wanting Lee to ask her to stay, or admit he loves her, or anything like that. I think *she* means it when she says she hopes she finds Sam. And later on, when she gets effusively physical with Sam in front of Lee, I don't think it's an act and I don't think she believes it's cruel -- after all, she's said enough for Lee to know what to expect, and she seems to honestly not care that he's sleeping with another woman. I don't think she's looking to start a relationship with him; quite the opposite, in fact.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 03:43 am (UTC)I'm sorry, I don't want to make it sound like I'm trying to make Kara the bad guy or that Lee's the only one who deserves sympathy. Not at all. I have sympathy and frustrations with both of them. I'm just not particularly frustrated with Lee here, because I don't think more words from him would have solved Kara's emotional reservations about being with him in any serious sense.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-10 11:42 am (UTC)However, although I don't think anything would have really changed if he had poured his heart out just then (and it would have been really OOC for him to do so), part of me wishes he had said more even if it didn't work. Kara is stubborn but as the old saying goes "many little strokes fell great oaks". Wishful thinking, I know, but still...
And later on, when she gets effusively physical with Sam in front of Lee, I don't think it's an act
It was not all an act, but part of it was. I think she was clearly happy with the success of the mission, she had easygoing, comfortable Sam to play with, she was pretty drunk by then, but part of it was for show. She wanted to push Lee away. And I think she did care he was sleeping with another woman because her line about him still being frakking Dee was really petty.