No Takebacks

A++

Masquerade!
Seething shadows,
breathing lies...
Masquerade!
You can fool
any friend who
ever knew you!

Masquerade!
Run and hide,
but a face will
still pursue you!

From:

ninjamonkey73.livejournal.com

Damn it, Lee... Stop her from her fool's errand and spare us the QoD. *sniff*

From:

There is a time for everything,

and a season for every activity under heaven:

a time to be born and a time to die,

a time to plant and a time to uproot,

a time to kill and a time to heal,

a time to tear down and a time to build,

a time to weep and a time to laugh,

a time to mourn and a time to dance,

a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,

a time to embrace and a time to refrain,

a time to search and a time to give up,

a time to keep and a time to throw away,

a time to tear and a time to mend,

a time to be silent and a time to speak,

a time to love and a time to hate,

a time for war and a time for peace.

As usual, their timing sucked. That was not the time for Lee to be all noble in a "I want you to be happy" sort of way. If only he had had the same gutsy, it's now or never attitude he had in UB... Oh, pilots, so many missed opportunities. *smacks them in the head*

From:

helikedmyshoes.livejournal.com

NO! LEE TELL HER NOT TO GO!

Or at least frak her senseless before she does...

sigh

From:

rdave1.livejournal.com

All Lee had to do was tell don't go! That simple!

From:

scifishipper.livejournal.com

Owwwww. This scene makes my heart HURT! :(

From:

cosetteferaud.livejournal.com

This scene is so frustrating, gah! Just look at their faces! Damnit Lee, why didn't you make a move? (because Kara obviously wanted him to). Sigh.

From: (Anonymous)

Yes, the scene itself is sad, but I like how they played it.

Lee wanted to tell Kara not to go. Even when Lee tells Kara that he hopes she finds him, you can see it in his face he didn't really mean it.

I always felt that in that moment that Kara wanted Lee to stop her. Give her reason not to go back for Sam. Though at this point it was beyond the point of no return, she'd have to go back at this point, but in this moment she felt the doubts of who she wanted.

Another wasted opportunity...

From:

ddt73.livejournal.com

ugh the above was me. Didn't realize I wasn't logged in.

From:

I think he means it.

Edited Date: 2010-12-09 10:05 pm (UTC)

From:

I think he means it, just as Kara means she's "happy for him. Really" when he says things are the best they've ever been with Dee.

Doesn't mean he/she's not still regretful and wishing things were different.

From:

It's hard for me to see it outside of the context of us talking about him potentially hoping that she fails to save a person's life, which is not very Lee. So I think it's a little more genuine than Kara's sentiments about his marriage later. But there's this feeling before she leaves to get Sam that they're approaching this pitfall where the noble thing to do is also going to lead to her doing that, which is why the situation stacks up so that Lee keeps putting off doing anything about them until he feels like it's his last chance.
(PILOTS = AN ENDLESS SHITSTORM OF REALLY BAD TIMING. EXCEPT FOR WHEN THE TIMING IS PERFECT AND THEN THE WRITERS FORGET ABOUT THEM. ARG.)

Edited Date: 2010-12-09 11:22 pm (UTC)

From:

I don't think the issue here is whether or not he really meant that he wanted her to find and rescue Sam (and the other resistance fighters). It never crossed my mind that he might be petty enough to wish the guy was dead or that the mission would fail. The issue is what is implied in his statement - that he is particularly interested in the success of the mission because it would make her personally happy to be reunited with Anders and, despite his own feelings about her, deep down he really wants her to be happy, even if it means it would be would somebody else.

Again, I really think he meant it. After all, this is after Scar, when she was very clear when she said there was nothing between them and she just wanted a warm body to keep her mind off Anders. And this was after she shot him and didn't bother to visit him afterwards, whereas Dee was clearly interested and supported him through everything. So, I guess he had accepted that there would never be something more between them, but he cared enough about her to want her to be happy just as he was trying to find some happiness himself.

However, deep down he didn't fully believe her (as his last words in Scar - the line about dead guys - implied). He was just being his usual extra controlled, extra careful self, too afraid to actually put his feelings/pride on the line and actually pursue her and make her confront her own feelings. That is why I feel that was the moment where who could have pulled a move similar to what he did in NC. Then again, he might not have really believed whatever she had with Sam would last and therefore, didn't feel the same desperate need to get outside his comfort zone and just take a chance at a relationship with her. In NC, the fact that her relationship with Sam seemed to be becoming serious enough for her to actually consider mustering out was the proverbial last straw. Hence, his "it's now or never" act.

But I really wish he had done it earlier. *sighs*

From:

However, deep down he didn't fully believe her (as his last words in Scar - the line about dead guys - implied). He was just being his usual extra controlled, extra careful self, too afraid to actually put his feelings/pride on the line and actually pursue her and make her confront her own feelings. That is why I feel that was the moment where who could have pulled a move similar to what he did in NC. Then again, he might not have really believed whatever she had with Sam would last and therefore, didn't feel the same desperate need to get outside his comfort zone and just take a chance at a relationship with her. In NC, the fact that her relationship with Sam seemed to be becoming serious enough for her to actually consider mustering out was the proverbial last straw. Hence, his "it's now or never" act.

This makes me wonder if Lee wasn't somehow almost relying on the fact that Kara's fascination with Sam was that he was "dead" or in the least unavailable. When Sam was part of her life, he would become as real, live as Lee was and thus someone that she would or could push away. It would be easy for Lee not not see this as his last chance.

From:

I think so, too. Too bad he thought so, though. I wish he had seen as a crucial moment and had made a move then.

From:

I couldn't agree more. *sigh*

From:

I don't really see why Kara's sentiments in Maelstrom should seem any less genuine just because there wasn't a life at stake. I really believe she wanted him to be happy, since she felt she'd fucked things up beyond repair pretty much.

From:

Unfortunately my total cynicism of Lee and Dee's relationship makes me kind of unable to believe she truly thought things could be going that great, and the line always seems a little forced to me. Like it's important for her to get across the sentiment that she wants him to be happy and she's sorry for screwing up more than any actual "Go forth and be blissful with Dee" thing. But I'm probably projecting a little :/

From:

I'm not sure how much she believed he could actually be happy with Dee, but that doesn't make her wish that he would be able to do so any less real. Just as I'm not sure how much Lee believed Kara was really so hung up on Sam but that didn't mean he didn't truly wished she could find a way to be happy.

From:

As I say, she is trying to convey and is conveying that she wants him to be happy - I just don't know if she truly feels he can get that with Dee, and it's kind of hard to be 100% genuine in that situation. I don't know. I just can't stop feeling like deep down they always knew when they were settling for second best, but when confronted with how Kara and sometimes Lee kept running from their feelings for each other a sense of false hope in each other's other relationships was all they had because they did want happiness for the other, but the hope always felt a little false.

(And I just don't interpret Lee's comment to Kara about finding Sam as being a hundred percent about hoping she's gonna be happy with him either way, cause to me that situation just registers as "Go take care of this so that you don't have to beat yourself up anymore."...Pretty much I'm regretting getting into this whole sincerity inequality equation of these episodes because the contexts is kind of apples and oranges to me.)

Edited Date: 2010-12-10 08:46 am (UTC)

From:

I just can't stop feeling like deep down they always knew when they were settling for second best,

Absolutely.

And I just don't interpret Lee's comment to Kara about finding Sam as being a hundred percent about hoping she's gonna be happy with him either way, cause to me that situation just registers as "Go take care of this so that you don't have to beat yourself up anymore."

I guess that was definitely part of it. I don't think he truly believed her when she tried to convince him that she was pining for Sam. He wanted her to feel better about the whole situation. But if in the end it turned out that would mean she would eventually find happiness with him, since by then he was thought nothing was going to happen between them, I think on one hand he would be sad to see it, but on the other hand, the selfless part of him would want her to be happy, no matter what.

From:

Huh. Well I think it was probably all too easy for Kara to believe Lee felt he had a good thing with Dee, and that after TABFYW when he decided he couldn't trust/believe Kara and that he needed to improve his marriage, that...that's exactly what he did.

From:

I think that at this point in their relationship, Lee is very accustom to putting his feelings for Kara aside, in this case because he wants her to be happy even if it's not with him.

In fact, I was thinking earlier that as much as I want Lee to say something different or do something to stop Kara, all I could think was that Kara would end up mad at him anyway for waiting so long or some equally picky thing. Agh, frustrating.

From:

I think she would have been happy he was upsetting her applecart.

From:

I think she would have, but I have less faith in Kara (or possibly the writers) today.

It's a really great, ansty fight scene in my head, and it doesn't end unhappily. It's just angsty and fight-y on the way. ;)

From:

O.o

I mean, yeah they can only make a move when the writers let them *shrug* But it's not like Kara's the only "difficult" one in the relationship.

From:

Very true. I mean, there Lee sits not saying anything. *whomps him up side the head* :D

From:

Plus...he already had a fairly steady girlfriend, which Kara knew.

From:

How conveniently I can forget about Dee as Lee's girlfriend. HA And Lee for that matter, she wasn't a consideration at all when he was ready to upset Kara's applecart. Hmm

From:

I don't know if she would have been happy, but she definetely needed some heavy pushing and the sooner it started the better. And right then there wasn't really anything going on between her and Anders. It had just been a fling she was hanging on to in order to prevent herself from going where she really wanted to go but felt she shouldn't/couldn't.

From:

I think she would've been. She was pretty happy to go with it in UB (and I don't think that was alcohol based). I think Kara waited a long time for a sign/move from Lee (as she implies to Sharon in UBEX), and he never really gave her any indications that he felt much more than friendship for her. Even in Scar.

From:

I see your point, but I think there are some differences to be considered. First of all, in they had plenty of time to make declarations of love and to give in to the physical aspect of it. So, yes, she was happy. But it didn't last long since she ran away in the morning and she was clearly not happy about it (her face when she ran into Lee later the following morning was gutting), but she did it aanyway. Now, even if Lee had made a move in this scene, she was about to go on a mission and they didn't have enough time to really connect and freely express themselves, especially considering she was so hung up on the idea that she felt something for Anders AND his very live was at stake at the moment. So, I think part of her might have felt some satisfaction at hearing Lee being straight with her about his feelings. But overall, she would have just fled faster than she did on NC and with a good excuse to do so (the mission). All in all, I think she would have been more confused than happy, really.

I think Kara waited a long time for a sign/move from Lee (as she implies to Sharon in UBEX), and he never really gave her any indications that he felt much more than friendship for her.

Well, here is a point where we just have to agree to disagree, I guess, since we have already talked about this before. As I see it, not being certain of Lee's feelings for her or Lee not being certain of her feelings for him was never the real issue between them. Deep down they both knew it but had their own reasons for keeping their distance - Kara's self-worth issues and her belief she was a cancer who destroyed those she loved, Lee's fear of needing someone, their fear of being hurt by giving in to feeling that ran too deep and they couldn't control or understand, their guilt over Zac, etc. But if one of them had more reason than the other to have doubts (which on the surface they had, because it was a way for them to protect themselves) I myself believe it was Lee because Kara actually had said out loud that she didn't have feelings for him (and even then, he didn't quite believe her), whereas he had never said anything like that to her . Yes, he might not have come out right and said he loved her, but he never said he didn't either. So, in short, they both knew instinctively how the other felt but they were both afraid to do something about it. They were both subtle in showing their love through looks and handshakes and hugs instead of actual words. But she was the only one who actually denied it.

From:

I think not being certain of Lee's feelings was a very real issue for Kara.

It's all in her line in UBEX "Are you sure I'm what you want?" She couldn't quite believe she was. And she ran not because she wasn't happy with Lee in those few hours, but because she couldn't believe he would be happy with her in the long run. Survival tactics.

I mean obviously we'll never know what would have happened if he'd said "Before you go, I have to tell you I'm in love with you, because I might not get the chance again." The writers had already boxed them into the QoD, since he was already with Dee and clearly Anders was coming back and we knew that.

I just think it's kind of unfair that Lee gets this "oh poor baby" treatment for his pining woobie faces and Kara gets "she probably never really loved him or wanted him to be happy anyway". Of course, they never show us any Lee/Dee, which makes it really easy to forget that he's in a relationship, happily frakking another woman on a regular basis, before Kara and Sam even see each other again.

From:

And she ran not because she wasn't happy with Lee in those few hours, but because she couldn't believe he would be happy with her in the long run.

Totally agree.

Here is where I disagree with you. You understand her line in UBEX as meaning she was unsure he truly loved her. And that, therefore, he should have done a better job (then or before that) to convince her and assuage her doubts. As for me, I tend to see that line as having more to do with her self-worth issues. It's almost as if she is purposefully giving him an out - "Are you sure you want ME, this frakked up person who fraks up everything?". If the real, BIG issue for her was the fact she truly questioned his feelings, I don't think she would have given in so easily that night. As you said, when she left the next morning it was because she "couldn't believe HE would be happy with HER", not the other way around.

Now, having said that, I truly love to hear your thoughts and you are absolutely right to say it's unfair to simply see Lee as the "victim" and Kara as the "bad guy". That is not what I think at all. And I don't think for a sec that she didn't love him or wanted him to be happy. Quite the opposite, in fact. I think they are truly equal in both their deep love for each other and in being emotianally dysfunctional. (But I have to point out that , as I see it, the only reason Lee hooked up with Dee was because Kara was so adamant in saying there was nothing between them and because Dee was there for him when he was emotionally and physically wounded, while Kara wasn't.)

From:

rachelindeed.livejournal.com

Very interesting discussion. I agree with most of what you've said, except that I myself have never regarded this scene as a major missed opportunity or turning point. Lee obviously wasn't going to tell her not to go on this life-saving mission because that would be petty and wrong. He wasn't going to ask her not to act on her feelings for Anders, because he had no right to ask that, especially after she'd told him, directly and recently, that Anders was who she wanted to be with. After "Scar," he was frustrated enough to give up on her and start a relationship with someone else (THAT was the major turning point, I think, not what he says or fails to say here).

His feelings for Dee are casual at best and I think in his heart he knows he would much rather be with Kara, but I think he finds it almost impossible to admit to needing Kara as much as he does, and even if he did admit that to her in this moment I don't think she would decide to be with him after all. They both honestly admitted their feelings on NC, as you say, and she still decided against him. As you've said, I think she's afraid of herself and the intensity and equality of this relationship, and Sam is frankly a lot easier to deal with, a lot more comfortable. And I think Lee finds Dee rather comfortable, though also awkward when his stronger feelings for Kara intrude.

In short, I find it hard to believe that a declaration of feelings at this moment would have changed much. It didn't change much later on when it actually happened. And, this is just my impression, but Kara seems focused on the rescue mission here and a bit impatient with Lee's awkwardness, and I don't actually think she is wanting Lee to ask her to stay, or admit he loves her, or anything like that. I think *she* means it when she says she hopes she finds Sam. And later on, when she gets effusively physical with Sam in front of Lee, I don't think it's an act and I don't think she believes it's cruel -- after all, she's said enough for Lee to know what to expect, and she seems to honestly not care that he's sleeping with another woman. I don't think she's looking to start a relationship with him; quite the opposite, in fact.

From:

rachelindeed.livejournal.com

I should clarify that I'm not saying that Kara doesn't love Lee. Clearly she does, and she wants him to be happy. As taragel said, those are major reasons why she refuses to get into a relationship with him. That's part of the reason I don't think a declaration on his part at this moment - or later - would have changed that.

I'm sorry, I don't want to make it sound like I'm trying to make Kara the bad guy or that Lee's the only one who deserves sympathy. Not at all. I have sympathy and frustrations with both of them. I'm just not particularly frustrated with Lee here, because I don't think more words from him would have solved Kara's emotional reservations about being with him in any serious sense.

From: