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no_takebacksPlease for give my tardiness, y'all. RL has been off the charts insane this week, and I haven't had time to devote to the meta-poetry-fic. Instead, I'm pulling a page from the eighth-grade playbook and throwing out some discussion questions. I love this episode for many, many reasons. (Not the least of which is the one we're looking at below.)
To the discussion!!!
Letter \ˈle-tər\ — actual terms or wording; literal meaning, as distinct from implied meaning or intent; the strict or outward sense or significance; Meaning in our case, succession of office was properly implemented—authority is just. We don’t owe the people anything else. No reason to promise anything, especially once you have the upper hand.
Spirit \ˈspir-ət\ — the general meaning or intent of a statement, document, etc.; In other words, the law must be followed, but not manipulated. Power doesn't exist to gain more power; it exists to ensure freedom and the rights of all. It means you that can't hold on to power simply for the sake of keeping order/control—even if you feel it's in the best interest of the people.
Be polite to all, but intimate with few.
Every generation needs a new revolution.
I have no ambition to govern men; it is a painful and thankless office.
– Thomas Jefferson
Discussion questions:
What does a free society mean when there are only fragments of a civilization left? How does survival change the equation?
Did Lee make the right decision about promising the elections, especially considering what happened (and who was ultimately elected)?
Why do you think Starbuck insisted on going on the mission?
Is Zarek a noble figure, an idealist—or merely out for himself?
Important pilot-centric shippy discussion questions:
Zarek has a long bit of dialogue explaining the meaning of Lee's callsign, Apollo. Lee calls it "just a stupid nickname." How does his callsign fit him (or not fit him)?
Why did Kara apologize/offer the olive branch to Tigh at the end? What was she feeling guilty about? And was Tigh right that her problems are professional and not personal?
Really REALLY important discussion questions:
What the hell ever happened to Boxey?
Why does Lee look even hotter all beat up?
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All right, kids. Go forth and discuss. : )
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Date: 2009-07-29 01:58 am (UTC)I think Kara tried to make peace because... hey... when you are stuck with Tigh as your XO for the forseeable future... you might wanna make nice so that your life isn't total hell. And I mean... though he's an ass to her about it... to be fair... he tried to do the same thing at the end of the mini and she was an ass to him.
NOW. (Oh gods you brought up Boxey. I'm not going to shut up) *cracks knuckles of Old School BSG*
I just have to go into my TOS stuff right now... I know it's probably obnoxious but whatev.
Anyways... I wish something had become of Boxey. And I understand why they used him because while he wasn't "important" in the old series he was prevalent.
Story of TOS Boxey for those who want to know... Boxey was the son of a reporter from Caprica named Serina. During the first few episodes Serina and Apollo got really close (and Starbuck got really jealous)... Serina's actually pretty badass and goes from reporter to shuttle pilot to viper pilot really fast. And by episode 4 they were engaged and they got married in episode 5. (Hilariously enough... magical space marriages make them find Kobol!) And then Serina died and the last thing I saw in my viewing of TOS was tiny Richard Hatch taking tiny Boxey by the hand and calling him son. And for some reason there are officer's uniforms tiny enough to fit him... why I'll never know. Boxey also has a really freakish robot dog that freaks me out.
Also, old school related. I ABSOLUTELY LOVE EVERY SCENE WITH LEE AND ZAREK ESPECIALLY WHEN ZAREK CALLS HIM APOLLO.
ALSO LEE LOOKS HOT WHEN HE'S BEAT UP BECAUSE HE LOOKS BADASS. WHICH IS A GOOD LOOK ON HIM.
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Date: 2009-07-29 03:31 am (UTC)You know, it would have been so nice if we'd seen Boxey again. Really wish they would have let him hang around.
Love the new Apollo/old Apollo scenes. V. cute. : )
Badass is definitely a hot look. And being smeared with blood never hurts. (What is up with my obsession with blood?? Hee.)
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Date: 2009-07-29 02:04 am (UTC)I think Lee's decision about elections was absolutely the right one; democracy doesn't just hold for when you like the candidates, so it's not Lee's fault that the Fleet was war-weary and made Gaius Baltar president! I also love how (at least until season 4.5 >:|) Zarek is a very ambiguous character: he is both a freedom fighting revolutionary and an ambitious man (v. Lenin-like, IMO!)
I have such love for this episode; it was the one that made me start doing my Leecaps back in season 1 and made me revel in BSG fandom and all the rest. SIGH!
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Date: 2009-07-29 03:28 am (UTC)I agree. You have to believe in the system and in the rule of law for it to work, not the persons involved. Even if the outcome is sucky.
Zarek = Lenin.... I LOVE that! Spot on. He really is a mix of both. It makes him such an interesting character.
I was already in love with Lee in the mini, but this ep just locked it up. MADLY in love with the staunch defense of democracy. : )
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Date: 2009-07-29 02:16 am (UTC)That's still one of my biggest questions.
cheers.
--Lex
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Date: 2009-07-29 03:21 am (UTC)((Actually, Tara totally wrote Boxey = God in a crackfic once and it was so damn brilliant it's permenantly etched in my brain. *g*))
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Date: 2009-07-29 03:20 am (UTC)He's up in the attic with Chuck Cunningham.
What, you didn't know Galactica had an attic? And thus I think the more important question begs: what do they keep up there? Besides Apollo brand ramen noodles, of course.
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Date: 2009-07-29 03:22 am (UTC)GIVE ME BLOODIED UP LEE, DAMMIT!!!!
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Date: 2009-07-29 03:27 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-29 03:33 am (UTC)Thank you. Just what I needed. *g*
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Date: 2009-07-29 03:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-29 01:08 pm (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2009-07-30 12:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 03:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-29 04:20 am (UTC)I HATE THE TIGH "YOUR PROBLEMS ARE PROFESSIONAL, NOT PERSONAL" QUOTE SO MUCH BECAUSE IT IS EXACTLY FUCKING WRONG.
Kara is a totally professional soldier, her problems come when her emotions come into play *yes even punching Tigh, because that's about not respecting him as a person as well as an officer* and that's all personal not professional at all. AND Tigh is the exact opposite!! He lets all his aggression and drunkenness come through on the job. And he doesn't really have a personal life at the time, so...
Gah I have always hated that quote.
Ok, carry on.
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Date: 2009-07-29 01:11 pm (UTC)And Tigh's line-- perhaps it was meant to mess with her... as her professional life is often the only things Kara's got together. Maybe he was just takign a shot at what she prides her self on.
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Date: 2009-07-29 01:20 pm (UTC)Yeah, he could be doing that, but the line has still always bugged, because usually when the show tries to make a character statement like that ("You're fine with the dead guys..." or "You're a serial contrarian...")it's earnestly meant.
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Date: 2009-07-29 02:35 pm (UTC)True. Our little show's strength does not lie in subtlety. ; )
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Date: 2009-07-29 03:19 pm (UTC)So maybe that was enough.
See, we say that a lot, but I don't know. One of the things I loved about early BSG is that they never did lay all the cards out on the table. (Esp. between Kara and Lee. Their exchanges were all about the subtext.)
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Date: 2009-07-29 04:34 am (UTC)Why does Lee look even hotter all beat up?
Because he's Lee and if there's anyone who can look hot all bloodied up is Lee. ;)
I think Lee got his callsign because he's got a heavenly cock. ;P
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Date: 2009-07-29 01:13 pm (UTC)And the blood and bruises totally help (see OMF's pic above. Sigh)
That seems to be a very popular opinion. *g* I was more wondering how he does or doesn't live up to the characteristics of Apollo (the deity). ; )
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Date: 2009-07-30 12:52 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 02:14 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-29 02:43 pm (UTC)You know I totally agree with Lee in this - either they are a sociey abiding by the people run and established government or they aren't. At this point, neither Adama nor Roslin is willing to appear less than democratic. They want the power of a dictatorship they just don't want anyone to call them on it and Lee effectively throws it in their face and forces them to choose.
And why do people think that things would have been better if Roslin The Hallucinating Despot was still in charge? They may not have settled on New Caprica, but then they would have been wandering around with a finite set of supplies. Or she would have let the cylons kill them all, thus ending all but 1000 people if they had decided to settle on New Caprica. There is no evidence that life would have been better under Roslin.
The Tigh/Kara scene is a bit of a nonsequitor. But I think it's funny that those two are calling each other on how bad the other one is. The irony is enjoyable.
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Date: 2009-07-29 09:28 pm (UTC)It's moments and ideas like this that make me *kinda* wish sometimes we could have seen the perspectives of the regular citizens from time to time, beyond their dull, dull reps in the quorum. But no, we get Saggiterean flu outbreaks and xenophobic doctors.
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Date: 2009-07-29 11:39 pm (UTC)I think that's one of the reasons (among many) that I was drawn to Lee, because he seemed to be the only main character who gave a rat's ass about anything outside of Colonial One and Galactica. The actual well-being of the people were incidental to everyone else, ships to track on a dradis screen, a number to edit on a whiteboard. I'm not saying he was always thinking of others, because he definitely was not, but at least he thought about consequences for everyone, not just the military and Roslin's pack of of merry synchophants.
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Date: 2009-07-29 11:54 pm (UTC)According to EGO, they are planning more spin off flicks; I wonder if the mutiny will get further development after the fact. Not that it matters or interests me (because the actors/characters I care about watching have most assuredly moved on from BSG) but when you mentioned the mutiny that popped into my head. It was certainly a hot potato of a dropped storyline, and an interesting one at that. So much potential.
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Date: 2009-07-30 12:02 am (UTC)Maybe they should do a spin off from Black Market where's Lee's supporting the working boys too. He believes in equal opportunity. . .
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Date: 2009-07-30 12:47 am (UTC)In a similar vein, I would also love to read a WWII BSG AU. I know Sept 11 is the noted historic parallel for BSG, but WWII makes perhaps more sense to me. Or maybe I'm projecting my fascination for that era's culture. Idk, Idk.
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Date: 2009-07-30 02:47 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-29 11:55 pm (UTC)I love you guys so freaking much.
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Date: 2009-07-30 12:48 am (UTC)no subject
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Date: 2009-07-30 03:28 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 03:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 03:47 pm (UTC)That is one classic that should be left alone. Lawrence Olivier IS Zeus, dammit!
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Date: 2009-07-30 12:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-30 03:29 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-07-29 11:06 pm (UTC)Letting my geek out, the question becomes one of causality. Do I notice his arms because Lee is somehow hotter beaten up, or does he appear hotter all beaten up because it happens to be the first time we've seen those spectacular arms?
I can't believe I'm going to let other people read this. *hides*
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Date: 2009-07-29 11:28 pm (UTC)I don't know why I didn't notice them before. Perhaps his arms were featured more because BD was the first ep that was really Lee's to carry. Also the overhead lighting was incredibly helpful in highlighting the Bampceps. :D
And I agree, sweaty, bloody Lee is hawt!!
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Date: 2009-07-29 11:54 pm (UTC)It really is a chicken and egg argument. The bloodied up-ness certainly adds to the hotness, but the arms themselves are ... well, marvelous.
No! Don't hide! Keep these fantabulous insights coming! We needs 'em. : )
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Date: 2009-07-30 02:06 am (UTC)There's no part of Lee that isn't spectacular.
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Date: 2009-07-30 10:44 pm (UTC)I think they're delicious icing on a piping hot crumpet. Just don't tell my boyfriend :p.
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Date: 2009-07-31 08:04 pm (UTC)I love that this was one of the show's biggest issues early on. "Captain's Hand" was the ep that made me think about this topic the most in BSG, but of course I like that Lee introduces it here. 'Cause while survival *has* to change the equation by its very nature, I get the sense that Lee would agree that you should try to make sure it changes as little as possible (sticking to the spirit of the law). Because otherwise, what have you got when the world rights itself again?
I'll add my voice to those who've already professed the opinion that yep, Lee was absolutely right to insist on those elections. I just think it was a shame that, in the end, it was all for naught. Because obviously RDM thought that government, along with technology, was eeeevil. *is still bitter*
I've always liked the idea that Starbuck volunteers for those missions (Sacrifice being another example, obviously) because she wants to have Lee's back. But okay, I can also admit that part of it's probably just that she always wants to be in on the action.
Whether Zarek had the right intentions or not, I'd agree with Dualla on this one: the moment he blew up a government building, he became a terrorist, pure and simple. After New Caprica, I started liking Zarek more, thinking he'd learned how to go about things the right way. But then the mutiny happened and now I'm back to thinking he was in it for the glory the whole time. Which is sad, since I think Hatch did a good job of developing Zarek as a character you really couldn't get a handle on either way (something I liked).
Apollo's callsign is love. Certainly it's fitting in that he is the son of the fleet's zeus, and in the fact that he is indeed a hunter. Furthermore, I think most of us agree that, superficially, he is quite deserving of the "sun god" title. Yum. Then there's the fact that, according to Wikipedia's article on him (*g*), "Apollo became associated with dominion over colonists, and as the patron defender of herds and flocks." Interesting... Of course, the biggest reason I really like that callsign for Lee is that he's brother to Artemis--it's weird (and disturbing if I really think about it, lol), but I love all the fanon comparisons between Kara/Lee and Artemis and Apollo.
Lee looks even hotter when he's bloody simply because it's evidence of Alpha!Lee. And there's no topping that, in my book... Yowza.
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Date: 2009-08-05 12:40 am (UTC)So on with the q's:
1. The question is, is there such thing as a free society when there is only fragments of a civilization left? I think up until a certain point, there has to be some sort of ‘dictatorship’. Someone who can lead while the rest of humanity copes with the end of the worlds. But eventually you have to move towards reintegrating the rest of humanity. If the person is unwilling to incorporate others, they will be over thrown. People can be distraught for a time but no one is stupid they will catch on eventually. Free society has to exist but I think when it comes to the reintegration, it is all about timing. The right time and right people will only strengthen the rest of the population while a bad choice will create havoc because power is what is important to them.
2. I think Lee made the right choice in promising elections. His intentions were correct. Democracy had to exist, something of the old had to survive, something that the people had to look forward, that their voices were being heard. Lee would never have known the outcome of the elections; his guess would have been as good as the next guy. The Lee we know expects the best from others, the innocence that slowly starts fading after this episode.
3. Simply put because she couldn’t let another Adama die if she had the chance to save him. Of course, that is my shippy answer. My shippy answer is she didn’t want her man to be shot.
4. I still think Lee should’ve let Kara shoot Zarek when she had the chance. I think Zarek thinks he is noble but he always does what’s good for him. He is much like Baltar but he manipulates and looks like the victim and Baltar gets caught in his own lies.
5. Lee’s callsign fits him perfectly. It works in with the mythology of the show. Apollo is the God of Hunt. Lee is always hunting for justice, truth and the right thing. He has a chariot; his viper, the Pegasus and then Colonial One. Lee is also Apollo, the God of Sun. The light that shines bright for the new dawn. He was the leader that led them to their new home. Also, his twin is Artemis, who matches him in every way. In Lee’s case, his twin is more like his soul mate, his better half; the person that completes him in everyway a human needs completing. In other words Kara Thrace. Apollo = Lee Adama
6. I think out of all the people on Galactica, Tigh and Kara are probably more different and alike at the same time. Their personal problems affect their professional duties. Kara needs Tigh on her side (up to a certain point), granted Lee is the CAG and Adama is the Commander but Tigh still has some power. She needs Tigh to keep flying, with Lee. No need to hold grudges when the worlds have ended. Kara and Tigh have no families of their own, the only family/friends they have are Lee and Bill, respectively.
7. Great question! I’m still wondering. I was hoping to see him strolling on Earth 2.0. We never did see him after this episode. I am sure he was running sort of something on one of the other ships. I’m sure he learned some leadership skills from Kara.
8. Well, it is BECAUSE HE IS LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There is no way he can look un-hot EVER. It’s a skill and an art form! The man is God for nothing.:)