Discussion: Friendlies!

[embolalia.livejournal.com]

People in our community play different roles - readers, writers, betas, lurkers, mods - and it seems that tensions arise sometimes without our really thinking about them. We all love pilots and enjoy this comm, or we wouldn’t be here, and I think we all want this to be a welcoming, inclusive place. So today, I’m declaring this a safe space to talk about these issues.[Poll #1849710]

And then some questions: how did you chose how to identify yourself? Has it changed over the course of your time here? Do you see one POV or another as dominant in our conversations? Are there other kinds of conversations or POVs you’d like to see us include more of?

(Hopefully it doesn’t need to be said, but NO PERSONAL ATTACKS are allowed during this conversation.)

Comments

[lyrela.livejournal.com]

I am pretty new to the BSG fandom. I started watching the miniseries in September 2011 and slowly went through all four seasons until I finished off the entire run with the finale three months ago. What can I say, the pilots had me at hello.

I would identify myself as a reader and *clears throat uncomfortably* lurker. I love reading the fanfiction works of the many talented writers in this fandom. And I also enjoy reading comments and thoughts by the shippers about Kara and Lee. I am quite shy and I don't trust myself to be eloquent enough to wax poetic about how awesome the pilots are in one hundred variations.

I continue to be amazed and blown away by how passionate and active the fans in the BSG fandom are (especially when this fandom is relatively small compared to other fandoms out there), and how the shippers in THIS community work so very hard in finding a million ways to keep the love for pilots alive (three years post 'poof'). So to every fangirl and shipper in this community, thanks for the memories, for making me smile when I check my f-list everyday and for the lovely stories about a girl and boy who shared a special connection.

[bluuefiire.livejournal.com]

You said perfectly pretty much exactly how I feel! (I started watching about the same time too)

I am SO happy to have found the BSG fandom

[embolalia.livejournal.com]

Well, welcome! I think what you've written actually speaks to Bee's comments below - we seem to have various 'waves' of fandom coming through here, too. I've been around for a little more than a year myself, and others for far longer. Sometimes I think there are tensions around that, too, but people are generally welcoming and new folks become part of the fold before too long. So feel free to chat in the future, no need to lurk :)

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I checked every box because I do all of those things or have at different points in my fandom life.

I think when you're a writer or an artist or a comm mod and you're constantly producing stuff that you're posting, you're naturally perceived as being really loud/dominant in the fandom. Reading and betaing and lurking are, of course, quieter, behind-the-scenes kind of activities. It's been my experience that you tend to get out of fandom what you put into it, for whatever that's worth.

Personally, I've always thought people were pretty good at giving beta shoutouts on fic and thanking their readers and appreciating readers/betas/lurkers in our love posts.

I'm always interested to hear feedback, criticism, suggestions for the comms I moderate. And the DPP schedule always has some open slots for anyone who'd like to try to steer fandom conversation in certain directions. :)

[wicked-sassy.livejournal.com]

I'm definitely primarily a reader, and have often done beta work. I started off that way in the N_T comm, and now I've betaed for quite a few folks here. A few months ago, letterstonorah asked me to be her ongoing beta, so that's been fun. I like reading stories and seeing everyone's views on Kara & Lee; I also like watching fanvids, listening to fan mixes, and looking at the pretty fan art. I've occasionally written some BSG fic.

I do my best, as a reader, to leave comments on every fic I read--BSG fanfic writers are very talented, and comments are the least I can do. Same for fan art, mixes, and vids. Everyone is amazing!

However, I feel like the contributions of writers are most sought and most praised in many comms, and a lot of member participation seems geared towards that. I've spent a lot of time doing beta work for mostly-very appreciative writers, but sometimes I feel like my contributions for fandom events aren't considered noteworthy, since I'm not primarily a writer.

(I'm not pointing fingers at anyone specifically here, and I'm talking about my own experiences.)

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

However, I feel like the contributions of writers are most sought and most praised in many comms, and a lot of member participation seems geared towards that. I've spent a lot of time doing beta work for mostly-very appreciative writers, but sometimes I feel like my contributions for fandom events aren't considered noteworthy, since I'm not primarily a writer.

I think this is because we're always craving new content with the show defunct, and most people just do not write much meta these days. Reading is a silent activity and beta-ing is kind of specific to the content you're beta-reading, so it becomes more of a private one-on-one discussion with the person you're working with usually.

I think too for some of us who've been around for several years, you find yourself repeating discussion points a lot. I think that's why many of the pilots fans that I knew when I first got into fandom who are primarily readers or just stopped writing fic don't really come around and participate anymore. It's hard to raise discussion on things you feel like you already know all the answers/arguments for. I don't have many burning questions about BSG anymore, so I know when I host DPP weeks, I usually do throw a bunch of fic challenges up because that stimulates my brain a bit more than just meta does at this point when it comes to pilots--though I usually try to always leave an option like "Or instead, meta/discuss how you think a prompt might play out." And if I forget to do that, please assume you always can!

That being said, I do think there's a pretty even balance of fic/meta-discussion here at N_T. Especially since Applecart comm opened, there's been less fic writing here in general, I'd say.

But yeah, apart from expressing gratitude, there's not a really a ton of ways to discuss reading or betaing as an activity (not in context to any particular fic) within a group, since they're such an insular activity, I think? (We'd discussed this briefly before, but I'm not sure if a discussion of the ways in which you could beta a fic (Grammatically, story-oriented, hard beta, soft beta, etc.), would be appropriate for a comm like this that is not a writing technique comm. That almost feels too "inside baseball" maybe?

Maybe that's a failure of imagination on my part though! If you don't want to host a DPP week, but would like to suggest some ways that we could more specifically highlight contributions by non-writers (aside from gratitude/love posts which we do fairly often already) please feel free to comment here or DM me if that's more comfortable.

(Not that I want to take ownership of the discussion or whatever--but I do feel a sense of responsibility about N_T, Pilots Presents, Reel Pilots, as well as the other comms that I moderate.)

[embolalia.livejournal.com]

you find yourself repeating discussion points a lot

I do feel like this happens from time to time around here - just by the nature of the comm. But different people are around to be involved from day to day or month to month, so there's not necessarily anything wrong with that.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Yup. I'm just saying that's why personally I can't always come up with new discussion or meta topics. My brain's just not firing in those directions anymore. Fic, on the other hand, is usually easier if I find a prompt that sings to me.

[wicked-sassy.livejournal.com]

I'm a bit baffled. It basically sounds like you don't think there's much meta or fic going on here, that it's tricky for the folks who've been around for a long time, and that things repeat themselves. So... I'm not really sure where to go from there.

Hmmm. I don't think reading is silent, to use your word. If it was, I'd be a lurker, right? I'm a little surprised to see "readers/betas/lurkers" lumped together in your other comment; don't people in each of these roles do something different? To me, vocal readers provide feedback, encouragement, and a sense of community. I perceive betas like myself as helping writers achieve what they're working towards, and lurkers pick and choose what they read without making their presence known. A lot of people seem to enjoy comments on their writing, but maybe that's my misconception; should I not be leaving comments on the fic I read?

Re: reading and betas, I thought it was nice when someone (maybe workerbee73 or kag523? not sure) put up a post to thank readers. Similarly, I think it would be nice to see a post specifically offering gratitude for betas, artists, mixers, and other folks after contests, ficathons, gift exchanges, etc--not just "thanks to the hard-working writers." Honestly, simply getting a "thanks, cheers" can feel pretty unsatisfying after I've devoted an hour or two to someone's fic, or when I've betaed multiple fics when asked to do so. That's just my take on it, and you asked me to suggest some ways that we could more specifically highlight contributions by non-writers.

Heehee, I had to look up "inside baseball," that made no sense to me at first! I had no idea if pilots ever played baseball!

I did host a DPP week a few months ago, and it was great to have so many folks participating. :)

[embolalia.livejournal.com]

things repeat themselves. So... I'm not really sure where to go from there.

It actually seems like this has come up with many comms as fandom, ah, *ages*, and was part of why the Kara comm went on hiatus.

As I see it, there are a couple issues going on here: how we treat new content and how we treat members of communities. People get excited when there's new content based on what they enjoy - for me, that's fic, but everyone's got their own interests. What that means is that the generators of content get more recognition than other people. As a writer (as a person?), it does feel good to get praise when you've put time into something. But because there's no finished product or posted work for a beta or a commenter in an easy-to-access place, it does seem to get overlooked. Short of devoted posts, I'm not sure where else that would happen except as exchanges between individuals, but I agree with you that it would be a good thing to bring up regularly to keep everyone feeling loved and engaged - certainly given the poll up top, more people identify as readers than writers.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

(As a mostly non-participant, this is not me commenting, so just pretend I'm not here.)

... but you know what would be kind of awesome? Have a day for betas to talk about what they do and why they love and what they want to see in fics and how to make fics better and how to enrich the storytelling process. Kind of like having the betas put on a seminar for everyone else. And hell, you could do another day for the readers to do a mini seminar of their own and discuss the same things. I think it'd be awesome to have those two groups of folks take the rest of us to school (and man, I for one would love to hear what they have to say). Because both groups--betas and readers--are so intregal to the whole process. Betas take raw, unfinished resources and make them fit to see the light of day, and readers are, well, they are the audience it's all made for. And I'd love to hear more from them/celebrate them/give them our everlasting love and gratitude.

This comment shall now self-destruct in 5 seconds. ;P

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

Have a day for betas to talk about what they do and why they love and what they want to see in fics and how to make fics better and how to enrich the storytelling process.

That sounds really interesting. I'd like to hear a beta's eye view on those questions.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

it does feel good to get praise when you've put time into something. But because there's no finished product or posted work for a beta or a commenter in an easy-to-access place, it does seem to get overlooked. Short of devoted posts, I'm not sure where else that would happen except as exchanges between individuals.

Exactly. I'm not sure how to make it into a group discussion or how we as a community can exhibit more recognition of the awesomeness of readers and betas (and lurkers?) aside from your standard love memes/gratitude posts, which I feel we already have a lot of here. I mean I haven't checked but I'd say we have about one every month or two... Maybe that's not a lot though. Or not enough? Or maybe it should just be segregated out so that we have special days where you only talk about betas or readers. I think we've done that before too but perhaps it should be more often.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I guess my perspective is skewed from being around when fandom was a bit more active? Comparatively, I don't think there's very much meta or fic nowadays? Not necessarily here at No_Takebacks but across pilots fandom as a whole, including posts at personal journals that aren't prompted by anyone at a comm.

I'm saying the act of reading itself is silent. If you decide to comment (which of course all writers enjoy reading) then you're entering into a discussion. If you choose to lurk, then you're not. I've never really understood lurking because I see LJ as a place for discussion and interaction, but I know not everyone views it that way or they have social anxieties or other reasons that prevent them from commenting.

I agree with your definitions of what readers, lurkers and betas do. I put them together because as any of the three, you are usually responding to a discussion that's already been initiated by someone posting something, whether it's a fic or a piece of art or a discussion topic at a comm or on a personal journal.

Yes, we often have gratitude posts here for everyone to participate in, readers and writers and lurkers alike, but we could separate that out and specifically have posts just for readers or betas or lurkers. I was trying to think of other ideas to highlight readers or betas, since we already do a fair number of love memes and gratitude posts here.


ETA On a personal level too, I totally agree that it's unsatisfying to leave a long thoughtful comment on something and only get a cursory thank you back. I've definitely been there. The people I've betaed for have usually been fairly close friends, or even if they haven't, where I pinch-hit beta-ed for someone, they've been really generous in their thanks and praise. I'm sorry you've had some bad experiences there. :( That can be really unsatisfying and sort of sour you a bit on participating, I know.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

Of all the things I do in fandom, I must say that the one that is most fulfilling to me, frequently, is beta-ing. I write fic, but most of my life I have written in a vacuum so while I enjoy the comments and involvement I get as a writer, I would make up stories about Kara and Lee regardless of whether I was writing them down and sharing them.

Acting as a beta, I think because it's for someone else (primarily <lj user=sci_fi_shipper.), is something that I'm immensely proud of. Something about the connection and support feels much more purposeful sometimes. I love when the writer I'm beta-ing for feels their story and writing is better for my assistance, even when I'm not entirely sure what I've done.

[wicked-sassy.livejournal.com]

<3 <3 <3

Rambly comment is rambly.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

I feel like I've worn a lot of different hats over the years, and gone from super-heavily involved to the point now where my heart is elsewhere, and I've kind of downgraded myself to lurkerbee/fandom alum status. So maybe I don't really have a place at the table anymore to speak my mind that that's fine. Truly. I'm happy to make room for the next gen.

I love that fandom lives on, even though I'm not that big a part of it anymore. I think everyone has their own life cycle with these things; everyone has their own trajectory. And we can't always be on the same page at the same time. And it's okay. It doesn't lessen the experience or the friendships or the connections; we just have to find new ways to relate.

I do feel like sometimes there is pressure to participate or be active or squee (and my God, I used to be one of those cheerleaders like whoa), but now I find myself on the other side, and I kind of want a space where I can quietly participate or lurk or drop in from time to time and have that be okay too. And really, I'm pretty sure that's already the case-- you don't really need permission/encouragement/space to lurk. It just happens or it doesn't.

And for me, a lot of this being able to pull back/move on really comes from working through a lot of my finale trauma. Way back in the day, when mintenergy wrote her fic Signal Fire, she made a comment when she finished that I didn't understand at the time, but I do now. Shortly after the story was finished, she said (and I'm paraphrasing) but something to the effect that she'd gotten the closure she needed, and now she could move on. And that never made sense to me until the past few months. For me, my closure was cavepilots, and what I needed to work through was finding a happy place in my head post-finale for pilots. So at the end of the day my journey was the same as hers, it just took a little longer.

But I recognize that's not everyone's journey. Not everyone is in it for the closure. (And long comment is long, lol.) So I guess I'll just say this-- we're all coming from different places and looking for different things and while we have a common bond, I hope we can continue to celebrate the different facets of this fandom.

Re: Rambly comment is rambly.

[bristow1941.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, I so feel the closure thing. When the show ended I was ready to fire my dvds out of the window and never think about it again. Cooler heads prevailed (ahh, wise friends...) and time was a great healer. Reading the plethora of absolutely amazing post-Poof! pieces has really helped me actually want to rewatch Season 4 and 4.5 (I swear I watched some through my hands going "lalalala, this is NOT happening"!).

[bristow1941.livejournal.com]

I'm coming back to pilots after participating as a reader, commenter and lurker in my first time around while the show was airing. Season 4 just killed my ability to rationally enjoy fandom and the show so I took a break of several years while I concentrated on real life stuff. Now real life stuff has ebbed, I rewatched a few episodes on hulu of season 1 and 2 and remembered the pilot!joy, and boom! here I am, back to reading and commenting. This time I'd like to be a bit more involved.

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

I checked both writer and lurker - I do read the posts (and the comments on them) every day but I don't always contribute. I do like it here, though. Hugs to all.

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

Hmmm, I mainly read (or at least try to when RL leaves me) the fic and I try to participate on the discussion when I can and I consider that I have something to contribute. But as of late I feel more like a lurker because of lack of time.

[winegums.livejournal.com]

Late here, but I see myself mainly as a commenter and reader, even though I haven't been around much for weeks.

I've written fic and meta in the past, but so little of it that claiming the title of either 'fic writer' or 'meta writer' would feel like cheating on a technicality or something. And I definitely want to participate in wordy discussions as much as I can, it's the only thing I can contribute to fandom and we kind of need the talking here, especially if we're to keep going.

Also, I see kag523 deleted her lj? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!