DPP: Troubled Waters

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

The hearty discussion of the last two days has left me feeling a little raw. Clearly, pilots still generate a lot of feelings, particularly about angsty things. Today, however, I'd like to turn the discussion to a topic rarely demonstrated on the show:

Forgiveness

I am wondering about the unresolved feelings that people have towards Kara and Lee for their hurtful actions towards each other on the show. I know many shippers have sorted their feelings, but the discussions over the past two days still speaks to some unresolved and intense reactions to the themes in their relationship.

Today, I want to look at forgiveness from two perspectives:
1. Kara and Lee forgiving each other for hurtful acts.
2. Shippers forgiving Kara and/or Lee for hurtful acts.

To participate, list any action taken by Kara or Lee that feels unresolved or generates troubled feelings. Consider whether or not the wounded character forgave the other. And then turn the question onto yourself (if you want) and ask yourself if you've forgiven the character. If you answer NO for any of these questions, describe what it would have taken to reach forgiveness.

For example:
1. Lee was a jerk to Kara in KLG and said some terrible things. Do you forgive him? Did Kara? If you answered no for either, what would have made forgiveness possible?
2. Kara married Sam after a night with Lee. Did Lee forgive her? Do you? If not, what would have made that possible?

If you've resolved all of your feelings about pilot actions, stand by and offer support to other shippers who still struggle to make sense of things. Be kind, my friends. Today is a day of FORGIVENESS.

*insert butterflies and rainbows*

So, shippers, what are the pilot actions that still weigh on your mind?

BONUS QUESTION:
If you are feeling the meta today, comment on how Kara/Lee's journey expressed themes of forgiveness and/or acceptance (if it did) in the show.

---

WISHING WELL UPDATE:

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Videos
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Comments

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

First: *SIGH*

Second: WOEFUL LAMENT

I am still angry about Lee's rejection of Kara in TAB. I have thought about this so much and I understand and empathize with Lee's reasons for making the choice he made, but it broke my heart. Like into a zillion pieces. Maybe in the end it would have been okay if they'd ended up together, but it didn't go that way, so I am still blaming him for not at least having SOME time with Kara before she died. No, he didn't know that she was going to die, and yes, this is hindsight, but I can't resolve my feelings towards it. I GET YOU LEE ADAMA BUT I AM SO ANGRY STILL. >:(

As for Kara, I think she accepted his decision, although still felt hurt by it. I see her statement in SoO, "Except me" (in response to Lee saying he could never say no) as an expression of her hurt feelings about his rejection. IT BREAKS ME STILL. I think that hug of theirs has so much love and forgiveness in it, but ultimately, he rejects her again.

WHY DOES THIS KEEP HAPPENING????????

*cries buckets of unresolved tears*

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

*hugs* I don't feel anger at either of them, so much as the writers (which I talk about below) but I have to say about that "except me/especially you"... I kind of hate that exchange. Ha! I mean I think it does explain their relative mindsets--Kara thinks he never loved her enough to overcome whatever resistance he had, and he thinks that he loves her so much that he...cheated on his wife I guess? or at least made himself miserable over it--but...I can't help but think Lee is kind of full of shit there. KARA IS RIGHT. He does resist her. Even in that scene. Oh kids. Oh writers who were so bad with romantic scenes/dialogue that thank god Katee and Jamie saved it with their faces and their body language and their deliveries. <3

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I have to say about that "except me/especially you"... I kind of hate that exchange. Ha! I mean I think it does explain their relative mindsets--Kara thinks he never loved her enough to overcome whatever resistance he had, and he thinks that he loves her so much that he...cheated on his wife I guess? or at least made himself miserable over it--but...I can't help but think Lee is kind of full of shit there. KARA IS RIGHT. He does resist her.

I have the exact same feelings about it. He is rejecting her again EVEN AFTER SHE COMES BACK FROM THE DEAD?????? I just can't believe Lee would do that. He pined for her, kept her picture in his pocket, and she comes back and he leaves anyway?? For that, I guess I have to be mad at the writers because it just doesn't work. DOES NOT WORK or make sense.

I am often in a state of acceptance about their story, but these discussions have really stirred me up, mostly, I think because it seems like a lot of the blame for the relationship problems gets focused at Lee and it really throws me back into a character-blaming mode. IDK. I know it sucks.

*HUGS*

Thanks, bb!

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Narratively, it just doesn't make sense in any logical way. <3 <3

I was going to reply to you at first with a jokey "DO YOU REALLY THINK IT'S FAIR TO BLAME LEE FOR HIS INACTION?" since that's exactly where we started this week's discussions. Hee. But I hear ya. It is unfair that we expect him to somehow rise above Kara's bullshit and maybe that's an Our World Phenomenon, where most of us still, in this day and age, are preconditioned to thinking that the man needs to make the (big) moves in a relationship? Or maybe not, maybe it is about their personalities and all the things we discussed on... Monday? I'm not sure, I wonder about it sometimes.

You can't help how you feel though. Sometimes it just creeps up on you and overwhelms ya! *hugs*

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

HA! Yes I DID! ;)

[marce-w.livejournal.com]

So true! I remember watching BSG for the first time so long ago and kind of focusing all the "hate" on Kara (and the writers) for her inability to be brave when it comes to her life and fight for what she really wants instead of taking the easiest way out. At the same time I loved Lee so much I could ignore all the crap he did along the way.
And then, not so long ago came a time of rewatching. I'm not sure what was the trigger for having a total one eighty when it comes to the character love/hate. Maybe it was simply because I was more focused on them (and a bit wiser myself - I hope) but I guess that the biggest reason to change my mind was that extended scene in TAB. And while I don't approve Kara's decisions I understand why she did it because I've been in her shoes (apart from the whole abusive family thing). When it comes to Lee it is much more complicated and even after all this time I can't see any logic in his actions (Shevon part especially - I mean, I know why the writers did it but it still didn't make sense to me). In a way there are too many moments of "why the fuck did you just do that?" for me to forgive him, because as much as the writers wanted to make Lee the perfect guy who got screwed over by some slutty chick for me he ended up being the immature manwhore (oh my, I didn't even think I'd ever call him that) that I totally hate when I'm not thinking of how much I'd love him if he could get his shit together

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Yup! I hear ya. The rage...it can be sneaky. ;)

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

maybe that's an Our World Phenomenon, where most of us still, in this day and age, are preconditioned to thinking that the man needs to make the (big) moves in a relationship?

I wonder about that quite a lot. When it comes to personal relationships, they are both so messed up as individuals and yet we always end up sort of "blaming" him for not doing something, for not pushing more, for not understanding where she was coming from, for being passive. Yes, her issues are more exposed for us to see while his are more carefully disguised, so maybe his personality could make it easier for him to push more than her, but it seems to me that he did. Only, it clearly was not enough. But do we get angry and frustrated at him for being him or for not being the prince in shining armor who ,against all odds, including his own shortcomings, bravely and fiercely slays the dragon and rescues the damsel in (emotional)distress?

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

*nods* About that last bit though about rescuing the damsel in distress--one thing I would've liked to have seen in canon is Lee rescuing Kara from some situation. I mean, of course, I love that she rescues herself whenever possible and I love that they invert the trope and has her saving his life quite frequently in battle situations, but... it would have been nice to see that reciprocated. It would have been nice to see Lee take a really big risk for Kara in a very open and public way at least once in canon. The only thing that really comes close is his decision in Maelstrom to not revoke her flight status...and sadly that has an unfortunate ending (even though it's done with really good intentions).

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I am often in a state of acceptance about their story, but these discussions have really stirred me up, mostly, I think because it seems like a lot of the blame for the relationship problems gets focused at Lee and it really throws me back into a character-blaming mode.

Oh goodness - I could see how you would feel that way, but certainly the blame SHOULD be equally handed out with those two. I'll just try to reassure you that I see Kara as VERY much to blame too. (Not that it makes it any better...) *sigh* :(

*sends you lots of hugs* K :)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

*hugs back*

I guess RDM did a fine job of screwing them both up emotionally and then never really letting them fully blossom. Maybe that's the fatalistic view of the universe he seems to have. I could never buy into his cylon alliance because it left all of the human relationships fall apart in favor of it. Kind of like a universal statement on love and forgiveness in the ordinary relationships of humans. Almost says to me that human relationships are essentially flawed and need to be replaced. Humans need to do it better so let me take my two human-human(ish) relationships at the end and destroy them. I guess if the entirety of sentient existence gets to NOT REPEAT THE CYCLE, I'm supposed to be happy? IDK. Seems to me that robot montage ending said it was all going to happen again anyway. WHAT WAS THE FUCKING POINT OF THE WHOLE JOURNEY? (Sorry, rage has been stirred. Explosions likely to occur!)

*HUGS LONG AND HARD AND TRIES TO FORGET*

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

My take on it is that when he says "Especially you" it means that he even if he could literally tell her no he could never get her out of his heart. To me it always came across as his way of confessing that he could never stop loving her even when he thought it was a bad idea to be with her. And it's hard for me to see him as once again rejecting her after she came back, but that's because their scenes together make it confusing as hell whether either of them is even trying to initiate anything other than the perpetual limbo their relationship stays in until the end of the show - It's too fuzzy for me, but I can see why a lot of people would say Lee is still to blame.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Yeah I think in Lee's head he could never resist her or stop loving her, despite everything, but...his actions tell a different story unfortunately. I don't see it as him rejecting her exactly, or that there's anyone to blame for it, other than the writers making them go their separate ways, sort of stupidly. I thought it was just a time-wasting thing...that they didn't know what to do with pilots but they didn't want to get rid of Dee and Sam (or their actors), and that towards the end of the show they would start coming back together. Sadly, that really didn't happen. :(

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. I don't really tend to blame either of them and I think by the end of their story, they don't either. It's a terrible course of events that they could never get it together, never be on the same emotional page at the same time...but I'm not sure I feel like that's either of their faults necessarily. I mostly understand why they react the way they do at the different junctures. I tend to think of it more as an outside thing, an external rather than internal problem, of the writers simply not putting them together when she comes back in S4 and instead sending them off separately when their journey should have been together.

Maybe again this is because I liked (loved? Loved-to-Hate?) all the twists and turns and never really wanted them to get together till the very end of the show. That they didn't there, when it was all laid out for them, that's the part that breaks me really.

But, regardless of how you process, there's certainly a lot of heartbreak in the idea that they never got a chance, whether its you view it from inside the narrative and are bitter and upset that they never give themselves that chance, or if you view it more as a situation of writerly interference and curse RDM's name. **hugs to Heather and all who need it**

[kag523.livejournal.com]

Maybe again this is because I liked (loved? Loved-to-Hate?) all the twists and turns and never really wanted them to get together till the very end of the show. That they didn't there, when it was all laid out for them, that's the part that breaks me really.

I recall D turning to me during the last robot-montage and saying something like "so I guess they ran out of time". That's as good an explanation of NOT getting there as any.

Hear you so much on this. :/

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Yup. I love whenever Katee says she thinks they just ran out of ideas and didn't know what to do with her character at the end, and that's why they didn't explain anything. Indeed.

Although I love the robot montage as I just said earlier to Norah because I think it's the perfect encapsulation of how badly they lost their plot and how far they strayed from the miniseries.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

1. Kara and Lee forgiving each other for hurtful acts.

Forgiveness is a topic that I have thought about a lot in regards to this show.

I know both Kara and Lee said hurtful things to each other more than once. That comes from their explosive personalities and from the fact they both knew each other so well (on some levels). Nobody has the ability to twist the knife where it will hurt the most as those who love you and know you.

However, sometimes, I think forgiveness is a much more complicated part of the equation with these two because to forgive someone you first have to believe they have done wrong to you in the first place(I believe that is particularly true in Kara's case). Then, it needs to be followed by a change of attitude - the person who forgives needs to be able to let go of the hurt and the person who is forgiven can't go on repeating the same "mistake" over and over again.

Yesterday, there was a lot of discussion about the punch exchange after the Baltar thing. I don't think Lee's behavior is defendable, but I also don't think Kara herself (though clearly hurt) felt he really needed to apologize. That is not to say she wouldn't have appreciated if he had, of course. Even if she had acted completely non-challant about it, had he ever done so. (She wouldn't want to reveal she had been hurt). What I mean is that it hurt her but not because because of the words or what they implied about her, but because he was disappointed in her and because he had seen her for what she believed she was - a do no good frak up. In her eyes, that was her fault. I think the same logic would apply for most , if not all, the times he was mean to her (like when he said he would open an airlock for her or when he refused to leave Dee). She might have felt hurt and she was certainly angry (anger keeps you alive, after all), but deep down she felt she deserved. I think the person she really needed to forgive and had the hardest time forgiving (if ever) was herself (more for her imagined faults than her real ones, sadly).

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

As for Lee, I guess forgiveness was more of an issue. First, because he felt Kara did in fact do him wrong more than once. So, from his perspective, there was indeed something to be forgiven (Kara's night with Baltar, Kara's mission to recover the arrow, Kara's flaunting of her relationship with Anders, Kara's marriage and her refusal to divorce). There is no doubt a lot of that was unfair, but at least the marriage was pretty unforgivable, in my opinion. In his defense, I can only say there were times when he saw how raw she was and that either allowed him to forgive her or at least to shove his hurt aside enough to support her in any way he could (the no-takebacks conversation when she returned from Caprica and his support of her at the end of Scar).

However, did he ever truly forgive her for her real or perceived wrong doings?

Most of those hurt feelings were just thrown into the deep recess of his heart and got buried there among all the junk we carry with us and life went on. Her death rendered all that moot, though.He reached a certain peace in the acceptance that regardless of anything they had both done or failed to do, he loved her. And that was it. All the rest didn't mean a thing. Like the question of what she was once she came from the dead. He was Lee, she was Kara and that was it. He didn't care about anything else.

Does that mean he really forgave her? Sometimes, I think he did and sometimes I'm not so sure. I mean , I know he matured a lot. So did she. But had she stayed I'm not always positive those old hurts wouldn't rear their ugly head the first time there was trouble between them. Not if they somehow reverted to old patterns - like Kara running away or doing something to push him away.

I guess we could believe that the Kara who returned had somehow resolved her inner issues and that wouldn't be an issue, but I have a hard time to understanding what that Kara was supposed to be. On my more optimistic moments, I believe they both learned from all those experiences and were finally ready to let go of the past and start anew. But sometimes I wonder if despite their obvious growth, they didn't need more.


2. Shippers forgiving Kara and/or Lee for hurtful acts.
Yes, I forgive them everything. Misguided as they were at times, they meant well. Most of the time. I feel very sorry, very sad and very angry about what happened to them, though.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

But sometimes I wonder if despite their obvious growth, they didn't need more.

This is where my forgiveness issues end as well. I think their individual arcs are supposed to represent growth, but where did they end up with each other? Still close? Still friends? I don't even know. I mean I assume that they shared great amounts of feeling for each other, but it was almost COMPLETELY absent in S4. What does that say about changing and growing to be a better, calmer, peaceful person? That one has to give up on important things? I don't think that's a message I want to listen to. For all their personal struggles, in the end they received no reward. More than that, they were IMO punished - Kara died and then poofed, Lee lost everyone he ever loved or loved him. How does that justify the struggle?

Yes, they needed more words between them. An extra, MUTUAL scene of love and acceptance. SOMETHING to let us know they were actually happy with their journey. We didn't get that.

Thanks so much for your lovely words. They echo so many of my own feeling about the subject. *hugs*

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I guess we could believe that the Kara who returned had somehow resolved her inner issues and that wouldn't be an issue, but I have a hard time to understanding what that Kara was supposed to be. On my more optimistic moments, I believe they both learned from all those experiences and were finally ready to let go of the past and start anew. But sometimes I wonder if despite their obvious growth, they didn't need more.

I really like how you've described this conflicted issue. I have hope certainly, but I still am let down by the end. Thanks for putting that so well, C. *hugs* K :)

[winegums.livejournal.com]

re: KLG, I always thought the spillover of that was in Home 1, when Lee welcomes Kara back to the Fleet.

There's no explicit apology because that's simply not how pilots roll, but I thought the kiss (and later, his consciously putting his own feelings aside and telling her he was her friend and that he was there for her) was in fact Lee's way of saying he was sorry for how he'd treated her earlier, and that he wanted a chance to make it up to her in whatever way she felt able to deal with.

And it does make absolute sense - both of them have been through hell since the last time they saw each other, and near-death can render pettier grudges pretty much moot. Not that KLG didn't have its own fallout in pushing them back to their respective corners after things looked so hopeful in Colonial Day...

Yes, I forgive them everything. Misguided as they were at times, they meant well. Most of the time.

Me too, bb. Me too :(

[kag523.livejournal.com]

Oh goodness, I fear I’m too weary to delve into this deeply today. :(

In a nutshell, I don’t think that Kara and Lee ever really get resolution or true forgiveness, because if they did, they would have been able to move past their issues as a couple. Do they forgive one another in regards to being friends? Definitely. (And I think that’s where the writers wanted to leave us at the end of the show.) But if I’m looking at it from the perspective of a loving relationship between equals, with the intent of working toward greater goals and eventually being together, then no, I don’t think they do. The brig scene after Kara’s death (which sci_fi_shipper mentioned above) would be my argument as well.

I see Kara and Lee in this way:

Lee holds grudges for a long, long time. If you’ve crossed him, it basically would take more than the end of the worlds to fix the issue (ie: his father). Kara, on the other hand, never holds grudges (and frankly is loyal to a fault) – but she spends all her time testing boundaries to see if people will leave her – and that means she’s consistently letting Lee down in big and small ways (and honestly? Some of her actions are complete deal breakers). All of these things ultimately build Lee’s distrust, no matter how he might feel for her. In the end, the elements, of distrust, fear and pushing boundaries / causing harm on purpose are never really adequately resolved for them as a couple. Are they friends at the end? Sure. But that’s quite a different.

How do I get around it?

Well, one thing that I’ve been reminded of a couple times is that if I write Kara / Lee, they are almost always together for the long haul and most of the internal impetus has to do with them figuring things out. I rarely write fluff - (DEFINITELY not canon!fluff) – and it’s probably for this reason: that if I want them being together then I need to see those two individual roadblocks resolved so that there is a chance that they actually could make it. I’m pretty resolved with the plot and overall narrative, but I still feel that Kara and Lee actually were the ones sacrificed (both literally and figuratively) for the good of everyone else. Rather sad, really.

If you are feeling the meta today, comment on how Kara/Lee's journey expressed themes of forgiveness and/or acceptance (if it did) in the show: Sadly, I think part of the purpose of the show was to show to show that the heros don't always win, that black AND white are sometimes just grey and that sometimes loving one another - despite the odds - simply isn't enough. In that regard, I think the nebulous apparent acceptance / forgiveness / not following through, all fits rather nicely.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your thoughts, bb. I agree with all of it. They did push them into a friendship role and that level of forgiveness was certainly achieved. I do believe they could have worked out their issues easily enough if the writers had wanted it that way. The idea that the show sacrificed the two of them will never be okay with me. I guess that brings me back out of the character-blaming feelings I was having and into an authorial intent. It wasn't the end game and very much didn't end positively for either of them. *HUGS*

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I do believe they could have worked out their issues easily enough if the writers had wanted it that way.

THIS is where my rage is. Because the truth of the matter is, there could have been resolution to everything. *sigh*

[marce-w.livejournal.com]

As an aside, one of the most painful discussions I’ve read in the Kara / Sam side of things is regarding the moment when Sam walks away from her in Collaborators(?) which many K/S people see as Sam ultimately doing exactly what Lee has done to her in the past, and what she expects everyone else to do. A LOT of K/S people have similar feelings about Sam as I see written about Lee above. Interesting, hm?

That's what Sam is - a bit taller and easier for Kara to deal with version of Lee

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Lee holds grudges for a long, long time. If you’ve crossed him, it basically would take more than the end of the worlds to fix the issue (ie: his father). Kara, on the other hand, never holds grudges (and frankly is loyal to a fault) – but she spends all her time testing boundaries to see if people will leave her – and that means she’s consistently letting Lee down in big and small ways (and honestly? Some of her actions are complete deal breakers). All of these things ultimately build Lee’s distrust, no matter how he might feel for her. In the end, the elements, of distrust, fear and pushing boundaries / causing harm on purpose are never really adequately resolved for them as a couple. Are they friends at the end? Sure. But that’s quite a different.

I think you summed up their tragedy very well. The only they had a chance as couple was if they somehow managed to get a grip on their own emotional problems first.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

The only they had a chance as couple was if they somehow managed to get a grip on their own emotional problems first.

Sadly so true... luckily there are so many wonderful writers in fandom that we get the chance to read those stories. And so many wonderful READERS - like you! - that it is worth the time to write it. *HUGS* K :)

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

Ok, this is going to come out all sideways but...

I think that when Kara comes back from the dead Lee forgives her completely. I'm not entirely sure that it's in character or even shown to my satisfaction on screen or that it happens all at once. But Lee forgives Kara.

I don't think that Kara is given to opportunity to forgive or accept Lee's forgiveness because she's dead. Whatever it is that comes back as Kara doesn't need Lee's forgiveness for her. Maybe she wants to find a way for him to find that forgiveness in himself. But she isn't real. So ultimately, it doesn't matter.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

This makes total and complete sense. I so struggle to keep Kara dead in my brain, but it is so difficult. I remember watching that scene the first few times and just FEELING the forgiveness. Now, in scrutinizing it, it feels so lacking.

I guess I'm just never going to be at peace with it the way I want to.

Thank you, bb. <3 *HUGS*

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

Honestly, the only way I can come to any sort of peace is by accepting that Kara isn't Kara in S4. That she can't be any of the things I want her to be because she isn't human anymore. And it's why I don't much like S4 (aside from a strange dislike of planned final seasons). She's too much Kara. There only for other people and not for herself. Accepting forgiveness and forgiving are both very personal, almost selfish acts that dead!Kara doesn't need anymore. :(

[kag523.livejournal.com]

Whatever it is that comes back as Kara doesn't need Lee's forgiveness for her. Maybe she wants to find a way for him to find that forgiveness in himself. But she isn't real. So ultimately, it doesn't matter.

*sigh* This is perfect and brilliant. Thank you! K :)

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

I think that when Kara comes back from the dead Lee forgives her completely.

I agree with that.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I blame Kara/Sam on Lee's treatment of Kara in KLG.

I think you are saying that Kara/Sam happened because Lee treated Kara so terribly in KLG? I agree in hindsight. I have always been angry at Lee for being a jerk and basically pushing her into the intensity of the connection with Sam. As the show was apparently intended, though, under the war-like circumstances, I think the girl got what she could. Sam wasn't supposed to ever come back and RDM changed his mind. And that's what we got. Sam became the wedge that RDM needed to keep K/L apart. That, I believe, became one of his goals in the show. Why? I'll never know.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

The saddest thing about Lee/Dee is that it ruined Dee's character. It turned her from a snarky adorable woman into someone who sold herself for someone who treated her terribly at times. AWFUL. The writers' portrayal of women for the most part is so well expressed by that very thing. I think, though, they were left scrambling when Paul Campbell didn't renew his contract. Dee/Billy was a little sweet, but at least they had chemistry. Dee was always Lee's second choice and it was painfully evident. Ugh. I think on the whole that Lee would be less distasteful to people if he hadn't faked his way through most of marriage.

Great points all! <3

[wicked-sassy.livejournal.com]

The saddest thing about Lee/Dee is that it ruined Dee's character. It turned her from a snarky adorable woman into someone who sold herself for someone who treated her terribly at times. AWFUL. The writers' portrayal of women for the most part is so well expressed by that very thing.

Yes, this, exactly this!

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

I think season 4 Kara is exhausted from all the forgiving she's had to do. She's forgiven her mother, she's sort of forgiven Leoben, she's been the one to take the first step in human/Cylon reconciliation which requires some measure of forgiveness as well. I wonder how that affects her ability to forgive Lee. I mean, she's been running around forgiving Great Horrific Epic Awful, maybe she takes it as granted that everything she has to forgive Lee has already been forgiven? I do like the thought of her having to process that forgiveness can take place on smaller scales as well. I like what kdbleu says above, that Lee forgives her everything when she returns, and I definitely also feel the change then. But I also like what kag523 and letterstonorah said about forgiveness sometimes not being enough - it's not enough for humans and Cylons, and maybe it's not enough for Kara and Lee.

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

Honestly? I think it's because deep down she loves her mother. So she knows in some gut place that it's possible to still love someone no matter how much they've harmed you. I think she ran away from her mother not because she wanted to hurt her but because she was afraid of watching her die. I think that's the sense in which her mother's abuse prepared her for her destiny - it prepared her for taking the first step in human/Cylon reconciliation by making it possible for her to imagine that people who have done horrific things might still be human on some level.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

I think you're making total sense. I didn't ever think that Kara ever forgave Socrata for anything, but that, like you said, that Maelstrom scene was about Kara seeing that her mother really did love her. THAT is the emotional release - that Kara felt, for once, really and truly loved. Shame, IMO, that it was a hallucination and ultimately led to her death. What does that even say about finding peace? That one has to die? RDM has a frakked up view of the world. Ugh.

Sorry, I've tainted these lovely sentiments with my rage. *HUGS*

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

I think you're right - it's not just that she loves her mother, it's that she knows her mother also loves her. Which means that she knows in a deep lay that you can love and try to do your best and still end up committing horrible evil. I think that makes her more inclined to be hard on herself - because her good intentions are no excuse - but also to see possibilities in others.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I think season 4 Kara is exhausted from all the forgiving she's had to do. She's forgiven her mother, she's sort of forgiven Leoben, she's been the one to take the first step in human/Cylon reconciliation which requires some measure of forgiveness as well. I wonder how that affects her ability to forgive Lee.

This intrigues me, especially in regards to how you see Kara's deification and return to Leoben post-finale (not in regards to how I see her, but as if Kara IS Kara after Maelstrom). How much of the way you write Kara post-finale (when, to be fair, she does a fair bit of torturing of Leoben), is because she's forgiven and forgiven and forgiven, and she simply cannot do all of it (without some physical element) any longer.

Sorry - I'm realizing this is off topic, given that this is a Kara / Lee comm. *shakes head* Just an interesting idea.

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

How much of the way you write Kara post-finale (when, to be fair, she does a fair bit of torturing of Leoben), is because she's forgiven and forgiven and forgiven, and she simply cannot do all of it (without some physical element) any longer.

Yes, that's exactly it. And I think at that point she's forgiven him in some ways and not others, and needs some kind of physical process to make it more complete.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I think at that point she's forgiven him in some ways and not others, and needs some kind of physical process to make it more complete.

This totally makes sense in your vision of the finale and with Kara. :)

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

SSWA!