Our choice lies in the space between stimulus and response

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

"33" is a relentless hour of enthralling television empathy. The rushed feeling of the episode, the glimpse of people on the verge of breakdown, the sweat, the dirt, the bags under the eyes. The exhaustion, the strain, the sleep-deprivation. Everything seems, tastes and feels real as you witness how the Fleet has been threatened by a Cylon attack every 33 minutes for five days.

It’s the end of the world, boys and girls, and we’ll sleep when we are dead.

 

“33” is arguably one of the best episodes of the series and the perfect trigger for Battlestar. The episode encapsulates the concept of this show: when the enemy doesn’t give a break and humanity fights for its survival at any cost, the boundaries between human and inhuman, between right and wrong, truth or lie become blurry… a nightmare picturing the terrifying threat of losing humanity for the sake of mere existence.

“I'm sorry to make it a numbers game”

This episode has so many moments... Some powerful and some quieter ones, all of them portraying a bunch of people trying to come to terms with the fact that the entire survival of the race depends on the successful execution of the next FTL jump. And the Olympic Carrier is definitely a pivotal moment, since it raises difficult and controversial questions about war, leadership and responsibility.

Starbuck, Apollo and Boomer are out on CAP when the Olympic Carrier, the ship missing from the last cycle of jump, reappears. The ship has more than a thousand civilians aboard and the captain does not respond to demands to stop. Following Adama’s instructions, Starbuck fires a warning shot across the Carrier's bow. The ship doesn't stop. Suddenly, a Basestar reappears and a nuke onboard the ship triggers the radiological alarm. Adama, believing that the Cylons are using the Carrier, tells the President that the only solution left is destroying the it. "There are 1,300 people on that ship", answers Roslin. "It's either them or us.” And then the new elected President harshly tells Adama, "Do it!"

It is an incredibly difficult decision: they kill 1,000 people in order to save 50,000. The reward is survival.

Boomer: We have new orders. We are directed to...destroy the Olympic Carrier and return to Galactica.
Starbuck: It's a civilian ship.
Crashdown: A civilian ship with nukes. I don't see anybody in there, do you?
Apollo (peering at the windows): The Cylons'll be here any second. If we're gonna do this, let's just do it. Starbuck, form up with me, we'll make one pass from astern.
Starbuck: What if you're wrong? Lee, come on...Lee!
Apollo: Okay. Fire on my mark.
Starbuck: No frakkin' way, Lee. Lee...come on!
Apollo (hand hesitating on the trigger): Mark.

Lee follows Adama's orders and fires. Starbuck follows. A few shots hit the side of the Carrier, and then the engines explode. The explosion is blinding, and we see how both pilots shut their eyes. TPTB’s original idea was to show passengers behind the glass as Apollo flies alongside the Carrier, but the network—afraid of the darkness of the show—got in their way and made them go for a more ambiguous choice.

It is still a powerful and haunting moment though, which raises lots of questions on the morality of the characters. The episode portrays an extremely difficult yet necessary decision, but the question becomes murkier from the character point of view. There were innocent people aboard who could have been saved? Was it the right choice? Was Baltar right to argue for the ships' destruction, knowing that he was also saving himself? Did he argue just to save himself?

And what about Lee?

Lee pulls the trigger that destroys the Carrier. The consequences of this event will haunt him forever and shape his growth as a leader. At the end of the episode, we see a short scene between Adama and Lee. Lee is in the ready room setting the next day's flight schedules. His father arrives and he greets Adama with a “Sir,” and continues to write.

Adama answers, shifting from the professional to personal treatment, “Son.” There is a quiet moment between them, and Lee doesn't stop or turn. Adama goes on and say: “I gave the order. It was my responsibility.”

But Lee just looks at him. “I pulled the trigger. That's mine.”

For Lee, it is not that easy. You can’t avoid responsibility like that, just because the order came from a superior officer. Adama tries to absolve Apollo of his guilt, since he is the military leader and—theoretically—the responsible one for the decision. Nevertheless, Lee refuses to absolve himself of his responsibility and the consequences of his acts. He followed orders, but he chose to pull the trigger. There was an alternative—a choice—there. Just sometimes it's a choice between two terrible alternatives

And this question leads me to the old topic of responsibility in war time: who should bear this responsibility? On a daily basis people make ethical judgements in relation of private action. We expect that individuals will act on "universal" principles in their treatment of others independent of race, gender, sexuality, and class. However, the boundaries of moral responsibility and accountability tend to become fuzzier when decisions are made by the system, the leaders or the government. During the Olympic Carrier crisis, Adama acknowledges his overall responsibility as the military leader of the Fleet. He chooses to take accountancy for his decision. And that gesture does him credit and frames him as a valuable leader well aware of the duties and responsibilities of his position.

But what about individuals? Yes, leaders bear great responsibilities, but each individual bears personal responsibility too. However, there is a tendency to deny the responsibility of an individual person, instead attributing blame abstractly to "the system” or “the government.” And what happens in a war context? Who should bear this weight—the leaders who give the orders or the soldiers who carry them out?

During the Olympic Carrier crisis Lee refuses to make excuses for his actions, not letting the consequences of his act to become blurry under the easy “I was following orders” label. Lee is a good soldier who is actually following orders, but in the end, he makes the final choice and decides not to ignore his own agency. It’s always easier to follow the lead of others and turn a blind eye to what the leaders are doing—but this refusal to acknowledge an individual responsibility is often the root cause of terrible crimes.

In “33” we see Lee hesitate as Kara questions him but, in the end, he decides to fire himself first. He will carry that weight with him forever in his conscience and his choice will shape him as the leader he will become. And that is exactly what set Lee apart for me—his moral courage to not run away from responsibility.

“We're not friends. You're the CAG.”

OK. So let’s enjoy pilots for a while. Because this is PILOTS and that’s why I fell for them. The pills scene is the shippy moment of the episode… And I watch it again and the first thought that crosses my mind is: “That’s it. Starbuck and Apollo. CAG and problem pilot and friends.” This is what I love about their interaction here. There is no doubt of the UST between them but what it strikes me is the undeniably friendship vibe—paradoxically, despite Kara’s words, “We are not friends. You are the CAG”.

Apollo: Hey, did you see the note from the XO?
Starbuck: I saw it. No way.
Apollo: Kara, everyone else--
Starbuck: I don't fly with stims. They fudge with your reflexes, your reaction time.
Apollo: Come on, Kara, give me a break. Just--
Starbuck: Why are we arguing about this?
Apollo: I have no idea.
Starbuck: Neither do I. You're the CAG, act like one.
Apollo: What does that mean?
Starbuck:  It means that you're still acting like everyone's best friend. We're not friends. You're the CAG. "Be careful out there?" Our job isn't to be careful, it's to shoot frakking Cylons out of the sky. "Good Hunting" is what you say. And one of your idiot pilots is acting like a child and refusing to take her pills. So she either says "Yes, sir" and obeys a direct order, or you smack her in the mouth and drag her sorry ass to sickbay and you make her take those pills.

(Lee and Kara both start laughing)
Apollo: Well, I'm glad I'm not working for you.
Starbuck: (laughing) Damn right you're glad.
Apollo: So do I have to smack you in the mouth, Lieutenant?
Starbuck: No sir, I'll take my pills. (takes pills from Lee) Perfect.
Apollo: Carry on.
Starbuck (smiling and saluting): Yes, sir

 

Adorable. That’s how I’d describe this scene… It captures in a lovely way this Starbuck and Apollo professional/personal vibe I love about them.  An enraged Kara tells Lee how he should behave towards his pilots—since he is their superior officer, their CAG, and not their friend. So Kara gets up in Lee’s face and criticizes his "Be careful out there" speech in the Ready Room. Apollo looks pissed off but doesn’t react while Starbuck yells. The funny thing is that when Kara stops yelling and they stare at each other for a minute, all the tension fades away. Starbuck starts giggling, and Apollo smirks, "I'm glad I'm not working for you." Kara can’t stop laughing as Lee seductively asks, "So, do I have to smack you in the mouth, Lieutenant?" And this is such a cute moment between them because it so clear that both see the absurdity of the whole situation—and because it frames Kara and Lee’s friendship and electric chemistry in a way I love.

We could argue that Starbuck's confrontation with Lee seems insubordinate, but I believe she is making him a better CAG—and later on, when he says "good hunting", you can see how he's internalized Kara’s advice. This is a beautiful quality of Kara and Lee’s relationship: they challenge and bring out the best of each other. They push their limits in order to be the best they can be. And together, they become an invincible team.

By the way, did you notice the look Chief gives Kara after he sees the whole incident and she snaps “What?". And what about Kara's face chewing the tablets? (heh. Our girl can be so hardcore!).

It is all about the scruff

We all agree that “33” perfectly encapsulates Battlestar Galactica… And not only because of its grittiness and its daring approach to issues like war, survival and humanity. Let’s be shallow for a while, dudes… “33” also means APOLLO'S SCRUFF. So if you need an excuse to rewatch the episode, that is definitely a worthy one ;)

Some questions to ponder

1) This episode contains powerful and “big” moments like the destruction of the Olympic Carrier and “little” ones portraying the crew of the Galactica dealing with the tragedy. What’s your favorite moment of this episode?

2) What was your first impression of about Starbuck and Apollo’s confrontation in the hangar deck? And how do you feel about this scene right now? Starbuck is being a pain in the ass for Lee as she usually is, or is she making him a better CAG?

3) How do you think Lee's decision affected him and the choices he will make later on?

4) Why does everyone look like hell, while Lee Frakkin Adama manages to look incredibly hot? Is it because of the scruff?

5) What do you think it means Chief look at Kara after the pills discussion? Is it a “Good Lord, Starbuck, what a pain in the ass you are for that poor boy” look or a “Please, you two get yourselves a room to work out your issues because it is SO obvious” one?

Comments

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

1) I can't pick a favorite moment for 33. It's the episode I've seen the most because of the "getting people started watching BSG thing. I have to say though? In terms of overall themes being presented... I love the little moment at the very end when Billy reports that a baby was born. It's like everything is dismal and tragic and then... wow... a little bit of hope.

2) Because I started with 33, originally, and not the mini, that scene was the first scene between them that I saw... and my impression was... "WOW." It's such a dynamic scene and I definitely think it's the latter.

"And together, they become an invincible team." YES THIS. That's pretty much what I love about them the most. (I mean yes, the making out and the sexing is great, but more than that, it's the way they make each other better, the teamwork, how they can each hold their own, and knock each other down and build each other back up.

3) This question is too big for my brain to handle right now.

4) Because he's Lee (the guy who made me realize I'm not fully lesbian for frak's sake!)

5) "Please, you two get yourselves a room to work out your issues because it is SO obvious"

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Love that moment too. It is a good way to end the ep after all the darkness... And now that I rewatching, every time I see Billy I can't help but think "He should have been one of the final five!" lol. I like his interactions with Roslin (and with Dualla, too. Thay were cute together).

the way they make each other better, the teamwork, how they can each hold their own, and knock each other down and build each other back up.

I afore how they always support each other. As you say, the chemistry, the sex and the UST is great but the trait I love most about pilots is their friendship. It is the very core of their relationship, imo. No matter how frakked up is their relationship on a romantic level and how dark and painful can get their friendship, they still remain friends.

the guy who made me realize I'm not fully lesbian for frak's sake

HA! That's funny... Kara is the girl that made me wonder if I am bi ;)

[daybreak777.livejournal.com]

I haven't rewatched yet because I forgot. But I will.

1. Strangely not a K/L moment. I'll parapharase:
Cally: Why do the Cylons come every 33 minutes? Why not 32 or 34 . . .
Chief: Cally.
Cally: What?
Chief: Shut up.

Hee! I love Cally snapping back because she's irritated and tired and Cally. And I love Chiefy's response. Banter! I love it.

2. I thought Kara was being a little mean. Lee was trying to be nice. But by the end when she took her pills and saluted I was smiling with her. :-) That was my first impression. Years later, I agreed with her, taking stims could cause them to make a mistake that would get them killed. And now? Now, they are just so cute and obviously know each other so well. I wonder how they got so close, actually.

3. Lee? Seems to pile on the guilt on to himself. I knew he wouldn't forget. Nor would Laura Roslin. I don't think Kara would/did, either though she rationalized it better for herself.

4. IT IS BECAUSE THE SCRUFF. ;-)

5. Chiefy had a look? Hmm, I'll have to go take a look. I guess it's a little of both. It's a bit too early and too soon after the attacks for the room thing. (Though Chiefy does know a thing or two about storerooms. :-)) I don't think he knows them well enough to guess about UST. But he is amused. Who wouldn't be?

[rayruz.livejournal.com]

I love the Big Bro/Little Sis kind of dynamic that Chief and Cally had... that's kind why their marriage squicks the hell out of me...

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Rewatch it, rewatch it! It's a damn good ep! :)

Now, they are just so cute and obviously know each other so well. I wonder how they got so close, actually.

I thought they were really cute the first time I watched the ep. And I loved Kara's being a pain the ass for Lee... and then how they start laughing. Loved the fact that they seemed really close. And like you, I wonder how became best friends (but well, that's nothing new, I have always been fascinated by pilots' backstory, it seems so juicy).

Chiefy had a look? Hmm, I'll have to go take a look.

That little details are why you should rewatch ;). Yeah, his look was really funny (and it was something that wasn't on the script, btw). I think Chief knew that something was going on between them from the very beginning (the chemistry between them was undeniable! ;))

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Fantastic mix of meta, thinky thoughts and SCRUFF my darling!!! Love it to tiny bits. : )

And now, on to the questions:

1. Definitely the moment at the end about the baby. This whole episode is so dark and bleak and relentless and then that part at the end is like such a fresh beath of hope. Just perfect.

2. I think it's a perfect encapsulation of their realtionship, how they interact and what they mean to each other. And I love your assessment of it, so I shall simply nod my head and agree. ; )

3. He's always carried a lot of responsibility on his shoulders (I suscribe to the theory that with an absentee father and alcoholic mother, he became a parent figure to Zak at a young age), but this really ratchets up the responsiblity to a whole new level. Now it's about so much more. This decision is a defining point for Lee, and one that greatly shapes him throughout the rest of the series.

4. Because he's justy so darn purty. *g*

5. Dude, Chief's ahd their number from the very beginning. Love that.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Yay, thanks hon! Those posts are so much fun!

The moment at the end about the baby

I love that moment too. It was like "This show is not all gloom and doom, there is hope, they will make it!". I love the scene with Dualla in the Memorial Hall too… I really like how that place changes throughout the series and ends up being a sort of chapel --with all those pics and candles.
And of course, I love the Kara/Lee confrontation because it was funny and fresh and they actually laugh, despite all the bleakness.

He's always carried a lot of responsibility on his shoulders

Agree. And I suspect that Lee should have been a parent figure to Zak too. Lee always carried heavy burdens, since he was very young, I guess. Something I adore about him is that he always accepts his share of responsibility. In this ep we saw him make the personal decision to follow orders, but he carried the weight of what he did forever –as we will see in "Water" (love his scene with Roslin) or the deleted scene in “Razor”.

Because he's justy so darn purty. *g*

Oh, Lee. The scruff is a killer. *g*

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Lovely encapsulation/recap.

1. Some of my favorite moments didn't even make it into this episode. The bit (I think it's a deleted) where Kara and Lee are in the head and she requests a transfer and he says all forms need to be submitted in writing and she says I'll go find a pen. They're both so damn tired but still bantering heh and it's so second-nature to them. Love it. I also like the this patrol is 100% stimulated deleted scene because they're actually laughing for a moment. And I adore the deleted scene (that was included on the Razor movie as a flashback) to them sitting in the ready room going over the footage of the Olympic Carrier and Lee's trying to see if there are shadows of people in the windows and Kara is telling him to stop beating himself up about it, but...they just keep sitting there (possibly passing a bottle back and forth). Oh pilots.

2. I actually didn't like that they busted into laughter when I first saw it. I actually thought it was more forced/contrived/cutesy than them just straight arguing. But it grew on me over the years. I like the way she goes to touch his shoulder but pulls back, knowing she shouldn't do it. I think Starbuck is making him a better CAG by being a pain in his ass. So both. Tough love, baby. But then Starbuck and Apollo disappear for a moment and Kara and Lee show up. :)

3. I think Lee's decision was key to one of the themes of the series, that you need to roll the hard six sometimes. It's proof that for all he doesn't want to be military like his father, Lee's got the chops to do it. It's the first inkling that he will, like Roslin, err on the side of the greater good always, even if it means making personal sacrifices. It's an echo of what happens later in Razor when he has to order Kara to stay back and detonate that nuke. (I also think it's very telling that no matter how much she protests, Kara fires very quickly after Lee does.)

4. Who doesn't love the Scruff?

5. Chief was thinking "On my deck? You know the rest of us have the courtesy to find ourselves a storage compartment... These two are gonna be so much fun."

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

(I also think it's very telling that no matter how much she protests, Kara fires very quickly after Lee does.)

Oh yes, excellent point. No matter how much she's against it, at the end of the day, she won't let him take the heat alone. Oh pilots. **sigh**

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Love all that deleted scenes, especially the Kara requesting a transfer one. As you say, despite being on the verge of a mental and physical breakdown, they can't help the banter :) And I adore the Razor scene too... I was tempted to include it in the recap, but it was getting too long… I love the fact that TPTB decided to include the Carrier incident 3 seasons later for Razor, when Lee is struggling with all the hard decisions he must make as a commander for the greater good (namely, to sacrifice Kara in order to accomplish the mission).

t's an echo of what happens later in Razor when he has to order Kara to stay back and detonate that nuke. (I also think it's very telling that no matter how much she protests, Kara fires very quickly after Lee does.)

Agree. In Razor, I wanted to cry when Lee ordered Kara to detonate the nuke, but I think it was in character for Lee to do something like that. The same for Kara, when she simply said “understood”. Something I adore about them is that they are so professional, great soldiers in their own way (despite being so young).

actually didn't like that they busted into laughter when I first saw it. I actually thought it was more forced/contrived/cutesy than them just straight arguing

It’s funny, my husband had the same reaction. He keeps telling me that he sees the scene *sort of* contrived. I love it to bits though. Love pilots being so… pilots :)

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

I don't think I EVER saw that deleted scene you mentioned until about two minutes ago, when I sought it out on my DVDs! Wow. How did I not?!! Anyway, so thanks for describing it, Tara!

[eugis.livejournal.com]

Loved loved the recap, Cosette!! ♥

1) It's difficult to pick only one moment, the entire episode is great, one of the best of the whole series, no doubt. If I had to choose, I'd probably pick the end, when Billy tells Roslin a baby was born. There still was hope among all the tragedy.

2) That scene is so them. They amke each other better by being a pain in the ass, they have each other's backs, they are a team. And they are so much more than just that, too.

3) Because he's the one who pulled the trigger (first), he feels responsible and he carries the guilt of that decision. And that definitely shaped the kind of person he'd become.

4) If there's anyone who can make scruffy and tired hot, it's Lee. Why lose the style even if it's the end of world? ;)

5) "Please, you two get yourselves a room to work out your issues because it is SO obvious.” Most def.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Yay! Thanks Euge!

I agree that this is one of the best eps of the series... It is not my favorite --you know it is the glorious UB ;)-- but it is one of the Top 5 for sure. 33 is a perfect encapsulation of what was BSG for me...

they have each other's backs, they are a team.

I LOVE that about them. No matter that they want to hit each other or frak each other or whatever, at the end of the day they are friends and will always support each other. That the thing I love most about them :)

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

1) This episode contains powerful and “big” moments like the destruction of the Olympic Carrier and “little” ones portraying the crew of the Galactica dealing with the tragedy. What’s your favorite moment of this episode?

Well, aside from the pilots' scene, which is awesome, I think my favorite moment of the episode is probably what you highlight at the end, where Lee refuses the absolution offered to him by his father and accepts his own responsibility for the destruction of the Olympic Carrier. I love that we find out in "Crossroads" that this moment haunts him years later.

2) ... Starbuck is being a pain in the ass for Lee as she usually is, or is she making him a better CAG?

I think it is something of both of these things. Kara is telling Lee to make a hard choice (because some of his pilots will die and he will have to order them to die and that's why he has to be CAG and not their friend) but later on in the episode, Lee makes a far harder choice regarding the Olympic Carrier. So ... I feel like Lee obviously has it in him to make those difficult choices (as we know already from the miniseries and abandoning the non-FTL ships) but Kara is also making him aware of something else, which is that he can't always be a friend to his pilots. OTOH, I think Kara is never happy when Lee internalizes the advice she gives him here in regards to herself - she does want him to be HER friend, not her CAG :P

3) How do you think Lee's decision affected him and the choices he will make later on?

I think this moment and the moment in "Water" when Lee talks to Roslin kind of crystallize his ability to a) not just follow orders (we'll see this with Zarek in "Bastille Day" and in KLG) AND b) the thing that makes me love him even when he's being self-righteous and judgmental, because Lee is harder on himself than he is on anyone else.

4) ...Is it because of the scruff?

Aye aye! I definitely agree that it's because of the scruff.

5) What do you think it means Chief look at Kara after the pills discussion?

I think Chief has never seen Kara interact with anyone else the way she interacts with Lee, so I'm not sure if it's a conscious "get a room" thought or just a "wow, this is a totally different side of Starbuck that I've never seen before!"

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I love that we find out in "Crossroads" that this moment haunts him years later.

And not just in “Crossroads”... I love the deleted scene in “Razor", when Lee and Kara are wacthing over and over the Carrier footage and Lee asks Kara if she see the faces... No matter he saved the fleet then, he followed Adama's orders because he believed it was the only option left, but he sacrificed part of his soul in the process.

I think Kara is never happy when Lee internalizes the advice she gives him here in regards to herself - she does want him to be HER friend, not her CAG :P

Heh. We all know that Kara has always been a walking contradiction... But she wants him to be much more than her friend, really (and who can blame her?) :P

not just follow orders (we'll see this with Zarek in "Bastille Day" and in KLG

That’s something I *adore* about Lee. He questions absolutely everything.

"wow, this is a totally different side of Starbuck that I've never seen before!"

Love that. I can imagine Chief wondering how Starbuck was so close to the commander's son... But I'm sure he got that “more than just friends” vibe... He had a similar interaction with Boomer, after all!

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

re: 5...God, I have always ADORED that he gives them that look. I think it's a very realistic beat for them to throw in, because we have to keep in mind that while everyone already knows Kara, Lee is a newbie and people aren't really used to their relationship. Considering that she probably hardly ever mentioned her relationship with Adama's living son before the fall of the colonies, I can imagine Chief and a lot of other people are a little thrown through a loop by how their friendship takes on this immediately close dynamic.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Excellent point. And it's interesting to think that the crew are probably experiencing a different side of Kara now that Lee's around.

[bonita-chica71.livejournal.com]

1) This episode contains powerful and “big” moments like the destruction of the Olympic Carrier and “little” ones portraying the crew of the Galactica dealing with the tragedy. What’s your favorite moment of this episode?
I actually have two favorite scenes from the episode- the moment when Dualla goes along the memorial wall to try and gather information about her family. The scene was filled with such reverie and heartache that you could bear to look away. I also love how much of a part of the show the wall turned out to be. Secondly when Billy *wibble* tells Roslin that a baby was born, it always makes me smile. To me, these two wonderful moments perfectly encapsulate what the series was going to showcase; the horrifing lows and joyus highs of human existance and it's resilance to continue.

2) What was your first impression of about Starbuck and Apollo’s confrontation in the hangar deck? And how do you feel about this scene right now? Starbuck is being a pain in the ass for Lee as she usually is, or is she making him a better CAG?
I really liked that the scene was played so light and for me the laughter towards the end was completely unexpected and welcome. I still love it today. "and later on, when he says "good hunting", you can see how he's internalized Kara’s advice." - So true. Just goes to show they are better together than apart.

3) How do you think Lee's decision affected him and the choices he will make later on?
I believe Lee's decsion irrevicobly changed the way he thought about "wearing the uniform"; his doubts, remorse and overall sadness of his choice are seen in "Water" and much later in "Crossroads Pt.II".

4) Why does everyone look like hell, while Lee Frakkin Adama manages to look incredibly hot? Is it because of the scruff?
Of course it's the scruff! Although he *did* look good in Colonial Day, Scattered, Home Prts.I&II, UBEX, EOJ.....hmm I think it's actually because he's 'Lee Frakking Adama'! lol Although I think the eyebrow may have pushed it over the edge in this one. ;P

5) What do you think it means Chief look at Kara after the pills discussion? I think he though- “Please, you two get yourselves a room to work out your issues because it is SO obvious” because you saw in the mini he was TOTALLY like that with Boomer. ;)

Whew, I got a little long there, sorry!

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I also love how much of a part of the show the wall turned out to be.

Yes, yes! I love the scene with Dualla in the memorial wall... It made me realize how important this wall becomes in the future for all of them... There are a bunch of lovely scenes there.

his doubts, remorse and overall sadness of his choice are seen in "Water" and much later in "Crossroads Pt.II".

Agree. But I believe that sense of responsibility is what makes him such a good leader.

Although he *did* look good in Colonial Day, Scattered, Home Prts.I&II, UBEX, EOJ

Personally, I think Lee only looks "bad" in the New Caprica flashbacks (I am a hair snob and Lee's horrible bad hair in those flasbacks *sort of* ruined the pilots!sex ;)). My all time favorite Lee is HomeLee --OMG, that scruff. He looks SO hawt there! (and another soft spot of mine is his black t-shirt in "A measure of salvation" too ;P)

You saw in the mini he was TOTALLY like that with Boomer. ;)

Yes, that is what I think ;)

And don't worry, your comments can be as long as you want, I loooove long comments! ;)

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

I have read and will comment more coherently tomorrow no today. It's about 3am. I'm catching up on LJ. Will be back soon!

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Oh hon, comment when you --if you-- can! Don't worry about that at all! ;)

[kellychameleon3.livejournal.com]

Just watched...

Did anyone else notice Tyrol refer to Lee as Captain Apollo?

Lee and Kara are barely in the episode which I didn't remember. It didn't bother me the first time around because everything about the show was interesting. Now they are pretty much all I care about which is sad but it's hard to care about all the other stuff when I know it's a lot of bullshit. Sorry trying not to get too down but I want to speak the truth. The episode is very good and seems to promise a lot of stuff the series couldn't keep. Oh, well at least it gave us Pilots. My favorite moment is of course, the stims,"we're not friends you're the CAG" scene. I think you said it all, Cosette.

Also, damn, the cylons were so much more intimidating and interesting when they were mysterious, when we didn't see the ins and outs of their lives.

I'm sorry this is a horrible response. I'll come back when I'm in a better mood. I just wanted to jot down my initial reactions. Please don't kick me out of the com. :P

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Did anyone else notice Tyrol refer to Lee as Captain Apollo?

Mmm... I didn't notice... But it makes sense,being Lee is a total newbie on the ship.

the cylons were so much more intimidating and interesting when they were mysterious, when we didn't see the ins and outs of their lives.

I agree with you here. To tell you the truth I never cared about the cylons very much... For me they were just the device to put humans in terrible situations and see them facing them. That was the part I always enjoyed the most about the show: how humanity tried to survive at all costs, how those life or death situations affected this new society, the goverment vs. military confrontation... you know, those sort of things.

I'm sorry this is a horrible response. I'll come back when I'm in a better mood

Don't worry about that. I'm sorry the ep put you in a bad mood... But girl, I believe BSG has so many good things despite all the bullshit... And it gave us pilots ;).

Besides, given that this comm is a sort of group therapy to mend our shipper hearts after the finale, I have homework for you: try to come here again with some positive thoughts!! Don't let the finale ruin this show (and pilots)! ;)

[latteaddict.livejournal.com]

I have no energy to to be thinky right now, but I love this ep, I love Lee's scruff and dirty, dirty voice when he asks Kara if he needs to smack her in the mouth and I love the insane chemistry Kara and Lee share in that scene and how they continued to make me believe they had a long and complicated history even though it's only episode #one.

:) :)

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Hee! Don’t worry about the thinkiness, girl… LOVE the shallow comments!!! ;P You know, I am a fan of scruffy!Lee, his scruff is a soft spot of mine (even though my favourite scruff is the one in Home… Yum! Lee looks unbearably hot in those eps, imo :D).
The “smack in the mouth” line is a favorite of mine, especially because Lee’s low and sultry voice as talks to Kara… I adore the chemistry too, it seems they are very close and know each other really well... It always made me wonder what sort of **extremely complicated** history they shared ;)

[shefcat.livejournal.com]

Lots of great comments here and not really sure what I can add at this point.

I think on question #5 it is no mistake that it is the Chief that gives Starbuck "the look" at the end of the stims scene. Who better than the Chief, who has been carrying on an illicit and secret love affair with Boomer, to recognize the signs of an unacknowledged relationship? Even when the participants in that unacknowledged relationship don't even recognize it....

On the stims scene itself I always thought that that was a direct lead in or a link to the Olympic Carrier scene (since we don't see much of our pilots...but maybe I'm thinking too much on that). Kara has to remind Lee that they're not friends, that he's the CAG. It's like she is telling him that the military supercedes the human stuff (sometimes). "I may be your friend, but I still have to do what you say when we're in work mode." It's like they are trying to learn where the lines are drawn between personal and professional.

There's a very similar quality to the Olympic Carrier scene. Except, this time it is Starbuck who is questioning. "It's a civilian ship." But Lee grasps that destroying it is a military matter. It has to be done no matter what he thinks about it as a human, with a conscience. And it is very telling to me that Kara is right on his tail when he starts firing. She's not going to let Lee swing on this one. She will always have his back.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Lots of great comments here and not really sure what I can add at this point.

We love reading the impressions of fellow shippers, so feel free to share your L/K love with us! :D

Even when the participants in that unacknowledged relationship don't even recognize it....

Hee! Both Lee and Kara are in denial of their feelings for each other (even though I think it is SO obvious that they are more than friends from the very beginning…). I agree with you about Chief’s look –as you say, he and Boomer had the same sort of confrontations and… well, we all know what was going on…

"I may be your friend, but I still have to do what you say when we're in work mode." It's like they are trying to learn where the lines are drawn between personal and professional.

Something I love about Kara and Lee is that no matter how frakked up they are on a personal level, they are always unbelievably professional. As for the line between professional and personal… When I think of this issue I always remember “Razor”, when Lee orders Kara to detonate the nuke and Kara just winces and mutters “understood”. Both of them were willing to sacrifice their personal feelings at that moment because they knew it was the right think to do. It was painful to watch as a shipper, but it was very telling of who they are, imo.

She's not going to let Lee swing on this one. She will always have his back.

And vice-versa (remember Resurrection Ship, when Adama asks Kara to kill Cain?). That’s something I love about them. They are friends and a team, no matter what.

[justascrewup2.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten how much I loved this episode. It jumps in feet first into the story and all of the tension in everyone's new reality. It's gritty and action packed and almost more than the mini, it hooked me on BSG.

I thought Lee looked ok in the mini, but with the scruff in this epi I really began to notice his extreme hotness. He was also too tired to be too uptight and that was attractive as well. The moment between Lee and Kara with the stims was bantery and necessarily snarky - Kara doing her part to make Lee a better CAG - and I totally noticed the moment with chief giving them the 'get a room' glance in my first re-watch and loved it.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

I'd forgotten how much I loved this episode.

This ep is one of the best of the whole series, imo. It is a perfect encapsulation of BSG.

I thought Lee looked ok in the mini, but with the scruff in this epi I really began to notice his extreme hotness.

It is all because that damn scruff!!! (Lee looks really good most of times –except in the UB flashbacks, maybe… but Scruffy!Lee is the hottest thing ever, imo ;)). And I love his exchange with Kara too –especially when he says that thing about smacking her on the mouth with that low and seductive voice… It was sooo sexy! ;P

[delle.livejournal.com]

coming in really really late just to chime in how much I adore 33. It really is one of the best eps of BSG.

Hot!Lee is HOT!

My favorite moment, actually, is when Tigh tells Adama it's his 10. Dualla waits and then reminds Tigh it was his 10 and Tigh responds that if the Old Man is too tired to remember, it's his 10. I'm not a huge Tigh fan, but that moment really captures the best of Tigh: his unswerving absolutely unshakable loyalty to Adama. (It also helps that Eddie wasn't overplaying Adama, as he tends to do in the later seasons)

I love the look Chief gives our Pilots - and I can actually read *both* interpretations in his look. He senses something happening between Lee and kara, but he's not sure what.

I love Kara in that exchange, berating Lee and telling him how he should be acting as CAG. I think she's acting out of instinct and exhaustion and frustration - but her advice is correct and he definately heard her.

God, how I love this ep. I think I could talk about it for hours...

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Aww, I love that Tigh moment too! Such a great bit. : )

And it's never to late to gush about ship and show! (It's not like we're gonna stop anytime soon anyways.... : )

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

1)Honestly, I love the smack you in the mouth scene. Also one of my favorite is when they are all in the air and just joking about the stims, “this is ‘stim’ulated flight”.
2)On the first watch, you think she is being a pain in his ass but then you think about their relationship and she really isn’t. Lee doesn’t know anyone on the ship; he is the CAG and it is hard to play triad and win money from your junior officers. Kara acting up seemed like an outlet for Lee’s frustrations. She let him take it out on her so he wouldn’t be distracted in the air and get himself killed. She pushed his buttons and he was a better leader for it. They gave each other hell but somehow it was always for the betterment of the other. In the end they always had each other’s backs.
3)Lee has always taken responsibilities for his actions, no matter whose orders they were or whether it was even his responsibility. He has always lived by his beliefs and he has taken licks for it. But he is one of the few characters that didn’t change; he was always consistent in his views. And that was why he became such a great leader, why he was chosen to be President.
4)Because HE IS LEE “FRAKKING HOT” ADAMA. He looks hot all the time, NO MATTER WHAT!
5)Oh how young and care-free they looked even right after the ends of the worlds. The Chief’s look was somewhere between ‘did she just get away with that’ and ‘did I see that right?’ Chief got to see another side of Kara. They all knew her as the tough Starbuck who could out fly anyone and wouldn’t think twice before hitting the XO. Lee bought out the genuine, playful side of Kara. Lee bought OUT Kara. Chief was just shocked to see a different side of these two people and their magnetic pull towards each other.

By far this is one of my favorite episodes, if you take look at in a non shippy perspective. This episode set the stage for the show and what it was trying to convey to its audience. It showed tragedy but also gave hope like we see in the end when the population count goes up because a baby was born. One of the best episodes.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Sorry for the delay in the answer, girl! (and thanks for commenting --btw, are you rewatching?)

Also one of my favorite is when they are all in the air and just joking about the stims, “this is ‘stim’ulated flight”.

Hee! That is one of my favorite moments too. It is so cute and funny and hey, despite that they are all exhausted they are laughing and joking. I loved that.

Because HE IS LEE “FRAKKING HOT” ADAMA. He looks hot all the time, NO MATTER WHAT!

**haha** YES!!!! HE LOOKS HOT ALL THE TIME… well, except in NC flashbacks, his bad hair kind of ruins his hotness a little bit ;). And speaking of Lee’s hotness, I’m feeling the need to make a Lee picspam for “Bastille Day”, what do you think? ;P

Chief was just shocked to see a different side of these two people and their magnetic pull towards each other.

Yes, I think so. I assume Chief was shocked to see the Commander’s son and new CAG and the hotshot pilot arguing and laughing and flirting ;). Something I adore about that scene is that Lee and Kara seem to know each other really well. They are so cute together :)

By far this is one of my favorite episodes, if you take look at in a non shippy perspective.

Completely agree. It is one of my favorite episodes too. I think it encapsulates the concept of BSG in a perfect way. And the ending is lovely… Despite the bleakness and the darkness, there is also hope.

[thrace-adama.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love this episode so much! It's one I've watched many, many times. Lovely recap and analysis--I completely agree this episode is the epitome of BSG at its best.

1) I'd have to say that, at least as of now, the stims scene is my favorite of the episode. I found myself looking forward to that the most. :) However, I also love when Lee makes his decision to follow orders to fire on the Carrier, and also when he and his father share that brief scene in the aftermath. And now that I've JUST scene the deleted scene Tara mentioned in the head between K and L (I can't BELIEVE I hadn't seen it!), I can say that is a great moment as well.

2) I think when I first saw the stims/confrontation in the hangar deck scene, I just thought it was adorable. I don't believe I considered it on a deeper level--I was already shipping them, so I was just excited to see them like that. Now, though, I would agree with a few other comments I saw, that Starbuck was being a pain in the ass with the goal of forcing Apollo to be his best and to become a good CAG. So, both! Like everyone else here, I love that they can and do push each other like that. <3

3) This was his first major decision as a leader of the whole fleet (in the mini, he left Roslin to actually make the call), and it's clear this made a huge impact on him. As a viewer, I'd say this solidified my view of him as kind of the conscience of the fleet (as I believe RDM once referred to him--and much as I can't stand RDM, I agree with him here). I feel Lee, for whatever reason, could always look at things most objectively and find the way that really served the greater good.

4) No question. It is most DEFINITELY the scruff.

5) Gods, I LOVE Chief's look there. I generally think of it as him being one of the first to catch on to at least a bit of what's between Lee and Kara (which is why I think the Chief and Lee scene in Taking a Break is fascinating, when they're talking about whether or not they made the wrong choices in terms of spouses, because Tyrol KNOWS just how much has been between K/L all along). So yes, the "get a room" vibe is part of it, imo. Adding to that, it's a great point that QoT and ninety6tears made, that another part of Chief's reaction may have been from seeing Kara like that. And know Tyrol thought Lee was kind of a jerk in the mini, so he was probably surprised to see Lee loosen up too.