DPP: You Give Fic A Bad Name
Feb. 20th, 2012 09:45 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
kl-shipper1.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
no_takebacksHello, fellow pilots shippers! I'm ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
kl_shipper1 and I'll be driving the DPP bus this week. This is my first time leading this thing, so bear with me.
I've been around fandoms long enough to see that there are certain genres of fic that have a reputation for being badfic-- for example, babyfic and songfic. So, my question for you all today is:
Why do these types of fic automatically get such a bad reputation? Is this the case in the BSG fandom? With pilots fic?
(Also, feel free to rec some fics that you feel are examples of these genres done well.)
kl_shipper1 and I'll be driving the DPP bus this week. This is my first time leading this thing, so bear with me. I've been around fandoms long enough to see that there are certain genres of fic that have a reputation for being badfic-- for example, babyfic and songfic. So, my question for you all today is:
(Also, feel free to rec some fics that you feel are examples of these genres done well.)
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2012-02-20 07:38 pm (UTC)Writers write the things they love, the things they want to see in their heart of hearts. I'm certainly not going to judge them or call them anti-feminist - that in and of itself defies the modern definition of feminism. Women can want and express themselves in any damn way they choose.
If they love baby!fic and want to see Kara Thrace with fifteen children, so frakking be it. Why do we care? They're not forcing anyone to do the same, nor are they insisting the every woman should have children. They are portraying THEIR version of a favorite character in a different way that fulfills their writing purpose.
Kudos to the baby!fic and marriage!fic and infidelity!fic and Karaneverdies!fic writers. It's all interpretation and fiction.
Write what you want people. Haters to the left.
no subject
Date: 2012-02-20 07:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-02-20 07:45 pm (UTC)*crazypants* :P
no subject
Date: 2012-02-20 07:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-02-21 04:53 am (UTC)*crosses legs* OWIES
no subject
Date: 2012-02-20 08:05 pm (UTC)I'm a fan of almost all genres tbh. Sometimes I'm in a mood for angsty pilots, fighting pilots, happy pilots, schmoopy pilots, married pilots and pilots in the family way. Sometimes it pings for me and sometimes it doesn't but I give credit to all that go out there and write their visions.
As a huge fan of AU I can totally get down with baby/kid fic. I wanted them to have a happily ever after and once in awhile that means the white picket fence and 2.5 kids roaming around the backyard. I feel like canon punished them enough that its fun to think of the what if's. I hate seeing it bashed because it's like a perfect guilty pleasure and it's just another lovely way to say "neener neener" to RDM who couldn't give them any shred of happiness or a future. If he wouldn't do it, then at least fandom will.
That being said I know everyone has something that isn't for them or a subject that is taboo but at the end of the day the community is richer for all the different versions of pilots we can find out there. SUCK IT CANON, WE REJECT YOUR REALITY OF POOFS AND PIGEONS AND SUBSTITUTE OUR OWN.
no subject
Date: 2012-02-20 08:15 pm (UTC)Yes, to all and every fic about Kara and Lee. Fuck canon. I can and will change Kara Thrace in any way I choose. She is character open to interpretation. Do I try to make her as canonical as possible? Sure, if I'm writing in a canon world. But do I also change her? Yes, of course. By changing or adding even one different piece of dialogue, I have changed her. And to that end, I can change her as much as I choose.
I so don't want people judging me for what I write. I want to change what we got from RDM and so I have and will continue to do just that. Will I respect Kara and Lee and all of the marvelously created characters in the show? Yes, I will to the best of my abilities. Will I stand behind anyone who wants to write a softer Kara with a different life who might want to have children. Of course I will. Will I judge that person as anti-feminist? No, I won't.
*HUGS* There is so much dark in the world and the idea of bringing a little light into their world can sometimes bring me great joy. <3
no subject
Date: 2012-02-20 11:25 pm (UTC)I think you make your point eloquently here, but not as clearly above.
The thing I get stuck on is this: What if for an INDIVIDUAL person, this course in life is good and positive for THEM? Why is that bad then to write it? Why does a particular fic say that any of its content has to extend beyond the borders of the fic? For many people, those ideals are fine and they are happy to live those lives. That doesn't mean that others are required to follow the same course. There is nothing in baby!fic that says, "Yo, reader subscribe to my version of happiness."
I am well-versed in literature as a representation of the culture we live in, and yes, many people enjoy the relationship, marriage, family path. What I don't see is why it's wrong for people to desire that? If that is not what you are saying, I guess I need further clarification. It seems like a judgment to say no one can write that path without simultaneously supporting a cultural standard. I disagree. I believe people can write to challenge or support cultural norms with great purpose. If you are saying that awareness is the key, then I agree. If you are saying that you want people to be aware that they are writing something that other's find offensive, I think your point doesn't need making. People read what they like and disregard the rest.
I support the view that often times baby!fic comes in that path, but it doesn't always. And the reasons for writing that path are often judged as non-feminist and "supporting the patriarchy". If that was not what you were saying in your various statements, I'll withdraw my assertion. I am very sensitive to what I hear as judgments about how people write certain characters. We have no say or influence of some else's creative process and to malign a genre which contains a certain trope over and over again doesn't really sit that well with me. (And we can never really know unless we ask the writer.)
From the use of "We", I get the sense that you are differentiating yourself (and others) as feminist while I am not. I see nothing in my views to give you that impression. Interestingly, I have not even expressed a preference or dislike for baby!fic or its ensuing tropes. What I am doing is supporting the view that people should write baby!fic in any form they choose and that assertion has somehow now cast me as a poor naive non-feminist. That is, IMO, anti-feminist. Supporting any and all views by women is feminist - regardless of their origins. Encouraging women to explore WHY they believe certain things is absolutely needed, but judging them for their desires and wants (with or without their personal insight) is the opposite of my version of feminism.
In the end, we should encourage exploration of these themes from an empathetic perspective, not from a judgmental one. There are a lot of members of this comm who love and read baby!fic and greatly desire many of the things you've pointed out as problematic. The tones of much of the above sentiments felt a bit insensitive and judgmental to me. That is why I felt compelled to express my views as I have. I appreciate the thoughtful reply. :)
no subject
Date: 2012-02-20 11:53 pm (UTC)This was asked and answered before, if you read all the posts here, but futhermore, no one ever actually implied otherwise. The question was "Why does babyfic get a bad rap?" The answer was, essentially, "It is thematically problematic since it plays into a patriarchal narrative, and people can have a negative reaction to it, particularly if that narrative encourages character behaviour that strikes the reader as OOC."
At no point did anyone say people shouldn't enjoy writing babyfic, or reading babyfic, or even want to have babies in their real lives. (If you feel I missed it, please quote/point to wherever you think someone said anything of the sort.)
no subject
Date: 2012-02-21 12:48 am (UTC)On a personal level, I actually agree with most of what you said and do also find those themes to be problematic in fic and in society. I am troubled, though, by the manner in which many of the statements were made (not just by you, but by others using so much sarcasm that I thought I might drown). Women who choose to have children or enjoy fic about children are often subjected to feminist ridicule. That is what I read above and it bothered me. I'm sorry if my comments were offensive to you. That was not my intent. :(
no subject
Date: 2012-02-21 01:27 am (UTC)I can only speak for myself, but I was discussing a well-recognized cliche (her hair/his eyes, etc) of the kind that was already skewered (delighfully) in the classic The Absolutely, Positively True (Sort Of) Fictional Adventures of Hot Pilots in Love (http://widget285.livejournal.com/311346.html). As a writer, I know you're sensitive to unsupportive writing atmospheres, far moreso than myself, but I was speaking to vast generalities - amongst all fandoms even - and had no particular author in mind.
Yours and others' comments seemed very full of judgment and seemed shaming to me. That was the origin of my comments. The fact that, under pressure, allowances were made for those who might "want babies", doesn't take away the sting.
A couple of things to address here - my context, as a feminist, is to Blame the Patriarchy. That is, you hate the game, the system, but never the player. The patriarchy is a mother of a bitch, and I screed and snarl at the system - indeed, with bile - but trust me when I say that, 99% of the time, I am not in any way judging or shaming women for whatever choices they make in their lives, even if its not what I would ever do. I will apologize for any confusion on that particular matter, as I'm used to hanging around in forums who understand that frame and would never take what I say in that manner, and I often shorthand and/or don't feel the need to preface my statements with that context.
But as to "under pressure, making allowances after the fact" - that really wasn't what happened, from my perspective. I stated what I thought was a clear criticism of a sociocultural narrative alone, which got interpreted as personal criticisms, and I tried to clarify that that was not, in fact what I said or meant. "I resent it being assumed that I can only find ultimate happiness in assuming a motherhood role", to me, never equals "No woman ever can find ultimate happiness in motherhood, and I'M JUDGEY JUDGEY JUDGING YOU IF YOU DO." The two statements are not at all equivalent to me, and I was certainly taken aback that my comments were taken that way.
I am troubled, though, by the manner in which many of the statements were made (not just by you, but by others using so much sarcasm that I thought I might drown).
I was being serious when I wanted you to point out specific comments, because I followed the entire conversation closely, and I never got the vibe you and
Women who choose to have children or enjoy fic about children are often subjected to feminist ridicule. That is what I read above and it bothered me. I'm sorry if my comments were offensive to you. That was not my intent. :(
Not offensive - I was perturbed by the persistent insistence that I'd somehow said or implied something that I never would have even thought of saying - but if there are zones of fandom where "feminists" are ridiculing fic readers/writers, maybe things were getting read into my comments from poster's past history.
no subject
Date: 2012-02-21 01:33 am (UTC)You know I think you're awesome, and I was nervous for expressing my concerns. I do think general criticisms (particularly harsh ones) of writing hurt people. Writing is a personal and often painful process and yes, if I protest anything, it is the creation of an environment where writers feel ashamed of the content of their fic. Personally, I dislike baby!fic and fics of the family-oriented genre for the most part, but I will fight to the proverbial death to support anything that anyone wants to write - even if it offends me.
Thanks for clarifying, bb. *HUGS*
no subject
Date: 2012-02-21 01:50 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-02-21 01:53 am (UTC)Are we okay?
*shuffles out*
no subject
Date: 2012-02-21 02:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-02-21 01:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-02-20 08:59 pm (UTC)If they love baby!fic and want to see Kara Thrace with fifteen children, so frakking be it. Why do we care? They're not forcing anyone to do the same, nor are they insisting the every woman should have children. They are portraying THEIR version of a favorite character in a different way that fulfills their writing purpose.
I subscribe to this. It's a personal choice and sometimes (at least for me) even a mood choice.
no subject
Date: 2012-02-21 12:50 am (UTC)*HUGS*
no subject
Date: 2012-02-20 11:01 pm (UTC)But here, I would never ever want to even open up that can. Hell, there isn't even any fic that I've come across that made me snicker! At least not on LJ.
You (We?) are so supportive of writers and comment so enthusiastically...it really makes the argument for rewards-based systems versus punishment-based systems if you ask me, but that's waaaay OT :D
no subject
Date: 2012-02-21 12:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-02-21 05:07 am (UTC)