DPP: The Same

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

If Kara and Lee are two sides of the same coin, they must not be all oposition and condradictions.

So today... What makes Kara and Lee the same?  What are their similarities?









And get ready to write over the weekend...

Comments

So far away...

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

Their incredible distance from everyone around them. No one---and I mean no one-- gets close to these guys except for a chosen few. Even the people they're supposed to be close to (parents, spouses) are only allowed to get so far.

But with eath other, well, that's a different matter entirely.

Re: So far away...

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

This was actually the similarity that inspired today's discussion.

I find it sad, the idea of them so distances from everyone else around them, and still unable to let themselves connect with each other. :(

Re: So far away...

[winegums.livejournal.com]

Oh, yes. A thousand times yes. They're both so scared of intimacy, and it makes for very sad things sometimes.

Why you gotta be so cruel?

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

It's not a pretty aspect to look at, but they both have a cruel streak a mile wide. Kara' lashes out without thinking, mostly in anger, and Lee can slice and dice like no one else (in a way, he is definitely the crueler of the two).

And they both can be absolutely cold and unfeeling in their treatment of others. Almost to a sociopathic level. There's been no better depiction of that (EVER) than in rawles' fic Periapsis (which basically has the premise of pilots in the BSG-verse as sully-functioning sociopaths. What's so amazing is how spot-on the characterization feels.)

Dammit! Now I'm having trouble finding it. Can anybody help me out here?

Re: Why you gotta be so cruel?

[wicked-sassy.livejournal.com]

Is it this one (http://shewhohathapen.livejournal.com/26014.html)? Sounds like it might be, from the summary...

(If it is, I will give myself a gold star for Google-fu skills!)

Re: Why you gotta be so cruel?

[winegums.livejournal.com]

So, so agreed on this :(

I think Lee's cruelty can be worse because he's normally so calm - it makes the hurt that much more painful.

Re: Why you gotta be so cruel?

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

I've also always found their cruelty part of their distance from others. Being horrible and mean is a great way to keep anyone from getting too close.

I also agree that Lee is frequently the crueler of the two. He's so intentional and concise. *shivers*

I'll see if I can find Periapsis. I've (re)read it recently.

Re: Why you gotta be so cruel?

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

in a way, he is definitely the crueler of the two

I hear this often, but have never got it. How do you mean? Cuz in my head, I'm always, "Kara, you stop that right now! Can't you see how you're hurting him?!"

But I'm very interested in this other perspective.

Re: Why you gotta be so cruel?

[sugarhaven.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. They can be very cruel to each other and sometimes hurt people around them but I wouldn't say that it's mostly intentional or that they get any kicks out of it. Quite the contrary. Lee was unjustly mean to his father in the Mini and tried to hurt Kara after the Baltar incident, but he didn't take any joy in it. He was venting his pain, frustration and anger on people closest to him, which is something that everybody does from time to time.

I think it was the lack of selfishness or nastiness, that actually made Kara and Lee stay in their unhappy marriages. Getting married to the wrong people was an asshole move in the first place, because they were deceiving and using Sam and Dee. Their conscious, however, worked against them, and in the end, they both felt so guilty for mistreating their spouses (Lee in particular), that they decided to sacrifice their own happiness in order to make it up to them.

I don't remember ever seeing Lee bullying the nuggets, indulging in some nasty pranks or taking his frustration on someone weaker. I'd say it's more Kara's territory.

[winegums.livejournal.com]

I know this was unintentional, but it's funny the way their childhoods ended up mirroring each other - with their respective absent fathers and Kara suffering both physical AND emotional abuse from her mother while Lee (at the very least) suffered the latter.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

Funny and sad that the show never showed them being able to bond or heal over their shared childhoods.

[winegums.livejournal.com]

I also think that they both wear the personas of Apollo and Starbuck around other people a lot.

There's a 'CAG + Ace Pilot' vibe which I think is different from their 'Kara and Lee' vibe in many ways, even though they do mix up sometimes.

[wicked-sassy.livejournal.com]

Yes!!! Well-said.

[ddt73.livejournal.com]

Yes, underneath their "armor" they were insecure and full of doubt, but these personas let them be brave.

I think they were borne out of their harsh childhoods, where they couldn't show how bad things were at home. They learned to hide those feelings and project confidence.

It was an easy transference to act like the cocky jocks they became later. To be the leaders they were called on to be. Lee also used this persona when he became a politician.

I also believe they could see through their shells, in some ways it was like looking in a mirror. It's what made them close and butt heads at times as well.

[wicked-sassy.livejournal.com]

Agree with everything said so far. I also think they're similar in their fierce love of flying and their drive to succeed; Kara's not necessarily ambitious, but if she couldn't be a pilot, she'd be lost. Lee tried to quit the fleet but he came back to his viper for the start of a new world.

They're both jocks at heart; they love jogging, boxing, and being competitive.

They're also both afraid of being completely frakked-up and broken. Kara admits this, but Lee shows this through his constant need for self-control.

That's all I've got for now... what a good thought-provoking post!

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

What a great list.

Esepcially them both being driven. Kara doesn't come across as particularly ambitious but she certainly takes pride in being the best.

[winegums.livejournal.com]

There is also the fact that pilots tend to feel responsible for the people they're in charge of - most clearly seen when they're in the roles of Mommy and Daddy Pilot (they were adorable together in Final Cut, and heartbreaking commiserating together in Scar - well, until it became heartbreaking for other reasons entirely :( )

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

The biggest thing for me is that they both try so *hard*, not at the same things and not in the same ways, but they really do. Kara covers how much she cares about certain things with tons of masks (bravado, ironic comments, jokes, etc.) and Lee can't hide how much he cares even when he'd really like to, but they both are looking for approval in so many of their relationships--from each other, from Bill, from Laura, from Cain, etc.

And tied in to this, they both have massive fears of rejection. They fear they won't be good enough, won't succeed, won't meet expectations. They react to the fear and exhibit it in different ways (Kara rebels and protests and feigns indifference; Lee gets emotional, or alternately hard and cold or acts preemptively cutting off his nose to spite his face) but at its base level, it's the same fear.

I think their similarities are what keeps them apart far far more than their differences, in fact.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

I think their similarities are what keeps them apart far far more than their differences, in fact.

This is pretty brilliant. So true.

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

Yes. Everything yes.

[ddt73.livejournal.com]

I agree, especially through the first three seasons.

Both have destructive tendencies of pushing the other away out of fear, this is best illustrated in NC when Kara freaks out and goes off and marries Sam. This is Lee's worst nightmare being rejected by the one he cares about the most, and obviously it took him a very long time to even begin to forgive her, and I don't think he fully forgave her till she died. This is why he couldn't give her a second chance so he pushed her away, before she could (in his mind) break his heart again.

I believe in season four they moved passed all this, cause in light of all they went through, it just wasn't so important any more. Of course season four so much was expected of them, and they expected of themselves. Kara saw herself as humanity's savior. As time when on in season four Lee took on more responsiblity and power eventually becoming president. Their individual journeys kept them apart.

I do believe if it wasn't for the poof they would have wound up together. Just time ran out. :(

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

In a ridiculous act of irresponsibility, I stayed up til 4:30AM last night rewatching from The Oath through the end of the series (I know, WTF right?) and the thing that struck me so hard other than SO MUCH PAIN GODS WHY ALL THE PAIN EVER was how far pilots had come and how very different they were from season 1 individually, but when it came to the two of them together, they were both still where they'd always been with one another; albeit imperfect and unnameable. But they were both so at peace with it finally, instead of fighting and denying and struggling with their connection, they'd just accepted it and stopped putting expectations on it. Like they just finally knew, this is what we are and this is what we will always be.

I'm still very raw nervy and emo from ALL THE PAIN, but GAH up until that final poof, I am so happy with season 4 pilots. So much beautifulness. So much happens between them with SO LITTLE HAPPENING BETWEEN THEM!

I think Saul Tigh said it best when he said I feel it! For her. For you. For Liam. Shouldn't need to spout the words; I feel it less with words. Just let me Gods-damn feel it and I'll fill the frakkin' room.

It's a very pilot's sentiment IMHO.

Someone remind me not to rewatch like that again. So many feelings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

up until that final poof, I am so happy with season 4 pilots

I absolutely agree with this. Up until the very last moment, they are stunning together and their arc is supremely satisfying.

[winegums.livejournal.com]

**hugs you** oh, bb. Let the fandom take your hurt away (or try, anyway) - that's what we're for, aren't we?

And that's exactly why I love pilots in S4 - they've come to terms with who they are, mellowed out so much, it's beautiful to watch when they do have a scene together.

So much happens between them with SO LITTLE HAPPENING BETWEEN THEM!

Isn't that just like them? *sighs wistfully*

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

As much as I appreciate that cruelty is something that they share, there is so much more that makes them alike that is to be celebrated:

They are both brave, smart, bold, determined, clever, gorgeous, sexy, skilled in both piloting and leadership, committed, strong, persistent, and loyal.

They both get up and dust themselves off when things get tough.

They are, in their own ways, both survivors.

They stand up to people they shouldn't and they each believe in their own ideas even when others don't support them.

The never ever give up. They keep fighting no matter how hard the battle becomes.

They do their best to be good mama and papa to their pilots, to show them the ropes, try to keep them alive.

They both want humans to survive and they want the people they love to stay alive.

They both respect and defy authority when it suits them.

They also share a passion for flying, despite what fanon says about Lee. He is a damn fine pilot, it just doesn't define him as much as it might define Kara.

They both try to do their best, even if it doesn't seem like it all the time.

They are also both intensely vulnerable to hurts and each has deep confidence problems.

They each make terrible personal decisions with dire consequences.

They lie to themselves, but don't often lie to each other.

They've each made mistakes that haunt them.

They love deeply and completely, even if their own crap gets in the way of that love being realized.

They both have anger issues, although they express themselves in different ways.

I think pilots are fundamentally different in the ways that they think about and act in the world, but they share much more in common than they are different.

That is why they work together and belong together. The End.

[kdbleu.livejournal.com]

*applauds*

Such a beautiful list. :)

I think pilots are fundamentally different in the ways that they think about and act in the world, but they share much more in common than they are different.

This I find particularly true.