DPP: Rules

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

Every once in a while, usually sooner than later we end up speaking about obeying/stretching/breaking the rules.

Usually we tend to see Lee as going by the book and Kara being the one to break all the rules.

So, today's question fro the shipper nation is: what do you think? is it true? is it false? or is it just blown out of proportion?

Comments

[deborah-judge.livejournal.com]

So I am totally fascinated by the she won't divorce/he won't cheat thing. And I know it is possible to read her not being willing to divorce as just her usual dithering about Lee, but if you read it straightforwardly that she really thinks there is a religious prohibition on divorce - even though it is apparently fine under civil law - and she would obey this prohibition even at the cost of not being with the man she loves...well, that gives me a whole different way of thinking about Kara and rules. Maybe it's less that she's a rule-breaker and more that she follows different rules than Lee does. It's possible that as a devoutly religious person she finds her religion completely fills the need for rules in her life.

I was thinking recently about what it means that she's dedicated to Aphrodite - we definitely see her connection to Artemis, her Aphrodite-worship is a little more difficult for me to see, but I can definitely imagine that Aphrodite's followers would consider infidelity to one's spouse to be not among the greatest of sins, and maybe less of a sin than divorce.

[winegums.livejournal.com]

and she would obey this prohibition even at the cost of not being with the man she loves..

It also gave me a totally different perspective on just what she was going for when she married Sam on the heels of completely freaking out - she basically cut herself off from Lee, their friendship, and any possibility of ever being with him - forever. We don't know that at the time of UB, but she does.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

It's possible that as a devoutly religious person she finds her religion completely fills the need for rules in her life.

As a religious person myself, I am always delighted when fictional stories try to explore religion not only as a source of "comfort" but as a guide to moral life with a strong intellectual and ethical component. But in order for that to be a meaningful fictional exploration, I think it's important for the show to explain what exactly the moral and intellectual components of the faith are and then show a character's struggle to live by those principles and the benefits and costs that struggle has.

In the case of Kara's marriage, I feel like the show did not do this. We are never told what Kara swore to do in her marriage vow, but clearly the idea that her oath did not include fidelity was not how her husband understood it -- he spends the rest of the series asking Kara to go back to their "real marriage" and to me the implication was that he understands that to mean a faithful, committed relationship rather than the casual fraks and no commitment he's getting in the interim. Also, given that Kara does offer to "leave Sam" (by which I assume she means divorce him) two episodes later because she's decided she's cheating herself out of what she wants just because "I said some words to the wrong guy" sure does make it seem like she is not terribly serious about honoring her marriage vow, whatever its specific contents were. RDM's commentary on the Eye of Jupiter cheat/divorce scene in his podcast also discusses it as an example of how Kara is "rationalizing" her way to behaving as she wants to.

Of course, the line about saying "some words" is part of a longer deleted scene, so you can choose to ignore that. But still, I find it hard to get a handle on the extent of Kara's devotion - or lack of same - to her religion because the tenets of her faith are left so vague. I think it's clear that she has a major break-through in Maelstrom and decides to offer her life to her mysterious gods in a leap of faith, but I don't know if we can read backwards from that and assume that she was always so willing to put the will of her gods above her own.

[sugarhaven.livejournal.com]

Also, given that Kara does offer to "leave Sam" (by which I assume she means divorce him) two episodes later because she's decided she's cheating herself out of what she wants just because "I said some words to the wrong guy" sure does make it seem like she is not terribly serious about honoring her marriage vow, whatever its specific contents were.

When I saw the EOJ scene, I felt like Kara used the vows breaking mostly as an excuse but seeing the TAB scene you mentioned made me think that she actually might have really felt like divorce was a sin and the god's would have punished her for it. I felt like she said that barley surviving yet another near-death experience made her realize that she is sick of constantly cheating herself out of happiness, because of some fear of gods or sense of wrongness, when quite frankly she or Lee can die on any given day. Basically, she is saying, that the gods keep frakking up with her anyway and she has no idea what they have planned for her and how much time she has left and she is still scared of potential repercussions but she is willing to overcome her fears and risk it. Not sure if I made myself clear.

Your analysis is great and as always spot on. We don't really know anything about the religious principles in the BSG universe and whether Kara sticks to them or just sticks to her own set of rules and beliefs.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

You make a great point about Kara's near-death experience and the impact that may have had on her faith, very well said. (It's interesting that being near death would reduce Kara's respect and caution towards the gods, given that it might equally easily have pushed her into more serious efforts to live by their rules, since she expected to be meeting them soon and facing the consequences for any sins she chose in life). If we were supposed to see Kara's faith as very important to her, then something of a spiritual crisis must have been involved in the reversal of her decision about divorce in "Taking a Break." I think such a crisis was not very evident in the immediate aftermath of her crash, as we saw in "Rapture." But I would have liked to have seen more, I think it could possibly have sold me a lot more on her storyline here if her motivations had been given more screentime and exploration. I would have liked to have seen a real crisis of faith and conscience, rather than just a quick line of dialogue to justify such a complete "180" turn-around, as Lee put it.

As filmed, it seemed to me that religiosity was a distant second in her motivations. The most important thing that changed her mind was that Lee refused to continue as before and broke things off with her completely, hardly seeing her at all in the time she was recovering. I think that drove home to her that she had to make a choice she didn't want to make, that she couldn't have Lee on the terms she preferred (an affair). I think she decided she couldn't live without him, and so was willing to accept his terms on the divorce question.

[sugarhaven.livejournal.com]

It's interesting that being near death would reduce Kara's respect and caution towards the gods, given that it might equally easily have pushed her into more serious efforts to live by their rules, since she expected to be meeting them soon and facing the consequences for any sins she chose in life

I fully agree. It is so hard to really see what was going on in Kara's head at that time. I don't think she made a complete 180 with her beliefs though. I think that on a spur of a moment, she is saying "frak it, the gods already have plenty to punish me for so breaking a vow I gave to the wrong guy will merely add one on my list". Still it feels that agreeing to the divorce was a massive step for Kara and deep down maybe she was really terrified that the gods will punish her by killing of Lee or Sam. Also, Kara believes that she is a screw-up and given her role in Zak's death, has hard time trusting her heart and decisions made out of love

As filmed, it seemed to me that religiosity was a distant second in her motivations. The most important thing that changed her mind was that Lee refused to continue as before and broke things off with her completely, hardly seeing her at all in the time she was recovering. I think that drove home to her that she had to make a choice she didn't want to make, that she couldn't have Lee on the terms she preferred (an affair). I think she decided she couldn't live without him, and so was willing to accept his terms on the divorce question.

Totally agree. Plus she felt like it was her fault that they got into that situation in the first place. I so wished the extended TAB scene was not deleted. It conveys so much and the acting is so perfect.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Kara believes that she is a screw-up and given her role in Zak's death, has hard time trusting her heart and decisions made out of love.

I really agree -- that right there seems to be at the heart of so much of what she does.

[requialexa.livejournal.com]

Jumping in at the last here, but I really loved the above discussion.

Kara believes that she is a screw-up and given her role in Zak's death, has hard time trusting her heart and decisions made out of love.

I think this also means she feels unworthy of the Gods' love/redemption so I'm sure she has many moments of "Why do I even bother trying when I'm too far gone anyway?" Especially when she seems to be constantly thrown into peril by the Gods she so fervently believes in. I think her faith in the gods is strong, but her faith in herself is where the lack is...

She tries to sacrifice her love for Lee (and also there's an element of trying to force his hand) by saying she won't divorce...tries to submit to the very minimum of what is 'required' (because, really, if the gods know her, how could they expect more?) but then she almost dies anyway...and is still miserable (of course yes, She could have swung the other way...) so she decides to just throw in the towel. I'm sure she's had this push-pull before in many areas of her life!

[sugarhaven.livejournal.com]

I think this also means she feels unworthy of the Gods' love/redemption so I'm sure she has many moments of "Why do I even bother trying when I'm too far gone anyway?" Especially when she seems to be constantly thrown into peril by the Gods she so fervently believes in. I think her faith in the gods is strong, but her faith in herself is where the lack is...

Very well said. This is exactly what I am thinking, just did not know how to put it in words.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I love your whole comment, but this in particular rang true to me:

I think her faith in the gods is strong, but her faith in herself is where the lack is...

Thank you for your insights!

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

I would have liked to have seen a real crisis of faith and conscience, rather than just a quick line of dialogue to justify such a complete "180" turn-around, as Lee put it.

yes, that would have been nice to see. and useful for more than one purpose. maybe if not only us but Lee would have seen that, his response .bight have been different. but as it was shown it is a very fast, unexplained 180. and a lot of people (including myself) tend to not trust those.

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

Your analysis is great and as always spot on. We don't really know anything about the religious principles in the BSG universe and whether Kara sticks to them or just sticks to her own set of rules and beliefs.

very true. we don't really know what the set of rules are so can't really say if she goes or not by them .

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's less that she's a rule-breaker and more that she follows different rules than Lee does.

this is an interesting approach. hmmm, must think about it.

[word-vomity.livejournal.com]

I think that it has been in some ways overstated that she is the ruler break while he toes the line. Obviously he ends up breaking a good many rules over the course of the series and she, as a military officer, ends up following plenty of service rules.

I think that it's so often simplified this way because her way of breaking rules is in a brash and in-your-face way and comes off in a very Starbuck, 'break rules just because it feels good to break things' ragey kind of way. I think her willingness to break rules that don't suit her comes more from a belief that she herself is not required or adhere to an outwardly established set of rules. So while we may see her breaking their societal rules, she's doing it to stay true to her internal ones (which are probably less rigid and more gray than those of the law). Although I do think her past does also play into that attitude of 'the world has let me down so I don't answer to its rules'. However, the military, in a way, saved her. Make her someone. Gave her a family. And therefore she does believe in its rules and laws and does follow them to the best of her, somewhat unwieldy, nature.

Lee tends more to believe in systems of governance and therefore wants them to work. However, as his conscience guides him, he will break a rule that his logic and heart lead his to believe is incorrect or likely to cause an undue amount of harm to humanity at large. Which is of course why we see him move into his law and political forays later in the series where he feels like it is his duty to set these fragile system right.

So viewers see her rule-breaking as blatant disregard, where we see his as strict moral stances against tyranny or something all lofty and impressive like that. Anyways, that got rambley. I was probably going somewhere with all that, but I lost it. My bad.

[anamarya.livejournal.com]

However, as his conscience guides him, he will break a rule that his logic and heart lead his to believe is incorrect or likely to cause an undue amount of harm to humanity at large. Which is of course why we see him move into his law and political forays later in the series where he feels like it is his duty to set these fragile system right.

yes, i tend to agree with what you are saying here.

personally i tend to see him more like a guy that if he really-really doesn't like some rules because they don't match what he things it's right he goes and tries to change them. idk if i make any sense but for me Lee is more like a guy that as long as they are rules he tries to obey them but if they are out of his comfort zone he's not break them but change them.

[requialexa.livejournal.com]

I'm starting to think it's really more about the personas they cling to for security and identity than about their actual behavior.

Lee knows in his heart he's a rule follower so if he breaks this rule or that one, it's okay. Plus, he likes following rules because it makes him feel safe.

Kara knows she's a rebel and everyone knows this, but it really has more to do with being able not follow rules that don't make sense, than about breaking all rules arbitrarily. There are lots of rules that make her feel safe, but if she knows she'll be okay anyway or if it's a rule that only matters when it's broken, then she will not follow them!

I just think those are more like roles than descriptors, if that makes sense.