No Takebacks

Personally, I would have made Lee less quick to forgive Kara for her part in Zak's death. Given that the writers wanted these characters divided by angst despite having strong feelings for each other, the Zak thing would have been an excellent way to keep them apart while still delving deep into their characters and grounding their emotions in huge issues of family and loss and guilt, rather than just having them hook up with other people and then angst about that. It would have fit Lee's character - look at his reaction to his father after Zak's death! - and it wouldn't have had to dominate their relationship (they both have enough to worry about in the post-apocalyptic world to spend forever raking over the past). They would still have worked well together and been drawn to each other, it could have just added that extra prickly layer to their early relationship which they could have gradually overcome.

In Act of Contrition, I believed that Zak was incredibly important to both of them. I resented the Daybreak flashbacks for cheapening that, among other things.

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It's pretty much a given, but the writers of the show and I clearly wanted different things for Kara and Lee though. They worked incredible (and unbelievably) hard to keep them apart and I wanted them to figure out a way to come together and get over their differences.

So, yeah, I'd have Lee and Kara have some sort of heart to heart about Zak, likely during her recovery after she's rescued from the moon. Maybe Lee would explain why he was able to forgive her, why and how he's come to accept his brother's death but can't let go of his father involvement in Zak's death. Kara might not get it, but I think it would work.

I also would have loved a moment where the difference between Kara's love for Lee, Zak and even Sam were defined. I'd make it part of Kara's realization that she's meant to be with Lee. I'm not sure where chronologically I'd have that happen this morning though, maybe during TAB before she tells Lee she'll leave Sam.

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I agree that I would want the two of them to work through their problems and be together eventually. But I think by resolving the Zak thing too early (like, 4 episodes into the series), they then had to come up with other sources of angst which led to plotlines that seemed contrived and emotionally shallow to me. I think they could have ridden the Zak angst-train for a season or two and then been really ready to put their past behind them. I think that had the potential to feel emotionally real.

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I hate that the Zak issue seems resolved within the first 5 episodes only to keep coming back again in UBex and again in Daybreak. It really doesn't bother me that Lee forgives Kara for her part in Zak's death, but it would have been nice if forgive hadn't also meant forget until we need to ratchet up the angst level. Riding out the whole of the Zak angst would definitely have been much more emotionally satisfying and realistic than the Quad of Doom.

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I have one of those minds that wants to accept what I've seen as canon. So let's go with that right now... The almost-frak on the table actually happened.

All right. Now that that's aside, let's consider the rest. In MY mind, at least, there has to be more than simply that reason for them to never connect. I always felt that this bit of dialogue meant something else had occured:

"So how long has it been?"
"Two years."
"Two years? We must be getting old. Seems like the funeral was just a couple of months ago."

To me, this hints at something that's pushed them apart, especially given that they suddenly pick up a pretty close friendship. In my shippy mind, I think somehow Lee and Kara got PAST the almost-table-frak. (No idea how, but okay with that.) And then they were friends. And THEN Zak died.

The two year separation (in my mind) is caused by some terrible grief-induced moment between the two of them. Sometimes I think the Major is involved (and I've written that before) and sometimes I think it's just them coming together in some angst-filled moment of need. Strangely enough, I find THIS a much more poetic reason for all the troubled relationship between them.

Does this mean I like how it turned out? No. It doesn't. But it does give me some interesting things to think about in the meantime.

Edited Date: 2011-05-05 06:54 pm (UTC)

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anamarya.livejournal.com

To me, this hints at something that's pushed them apart, especially given that they suddenly pick up a pretty close friendship. In my shippy mind, I think somehow Lee and Kara got PAST the almost-table-frak. (No idea how, but okay with that.) And then they were friends. And THEN Zak died.

I agree with this. and i would have enjoyed seeing that and Zak with them. Bot too much because it was not that kind of a show but something. maybe a glimpse of the day that the picture was taken? or something to that affect.

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That would have been great. I think them being able to get over the table would have spoken depths about their friendship.

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One of the things about blaming everything on the almost-table-frak is that it ignores that great dialog in the mini, the mention of the major and even the picture of Zak, Kara and Lee. It doesn't explain how Lee and Kara could jump into a tight and trust-filled friendship. And it does kill the much more poetic long term angst.

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One of the things about blaming everything on the almost-table-frak is that it ignores that great dialog in the mini, the mention of the major and even the picture of Zak, Kara and Lee.

PREACH IT! This, so so much!

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In fact, in order to have the relationship they have in the mini and S1, they have to have gottne over the almost-table-frak. The whole thing is a house of cards, and the winds blowing, I tell you!

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anastashial.livejournal.com

I always took it from the POV that it had to do with Lee's argument over Bill's percieved complicity in Zak's death. After all, that's what gets Lee and Kara going again when he visits her in the brig.

I envision that Lee and Bill had a very public fight at the Adama home right after the burial and Lee storms out. He doesn't see or speak to his father again until he's forced to by the events of the mini. I'm not sure how Lee reacts to Kara "siding" with his father right after Zak's death. Certainly he wasn't as mad at her because he does go to the brig to see her. I think that they've not seen each other in the interim two years can be completely explained by Lee's refusal to go anywhere near his father's ship.

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anamarya.livejournal.com

I think that they've not seen each other in the interim two years can be completely explained by Lee's refusal to go anywhere near his father's ship.
you are probably right here, and I think that another factor was the fact that they were living on two separate Battlestars which made it easy to avoid eachother.

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That works too! (And I think that's likely what canon espouses as well.)

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I don't know the answers to these questions! Lol.

But let's see. I agree that it would have been a much more compelling conflict to explore because it's internal by nature although seemingly being about an external source (therefore, better than Gaius, Sam, Dee because it has to bring into the picture more of their own emotional development).

I think it's really interesting that the first thing Kara says to Lee in Unfinished Business when she asks him when he says he wasn't willing to admit his love for her before now was "Because of Zak?" And this is after he has not even been mentioned on the show in over two seasons.

If we were going to go the Sam route, I think you would have had to make the comparisons to Zak and those relationships be part of canon (not just part of fanon's wonderful attempts at providing sense/explanation not in the show/text). I think the missing months/year in Baltar's hair would really be the supreme time to do that actually.

I think too you'd really have to define what their relationship was like while Zak was alive. How long did they know each other? How close friends were they? Did anything ever happen? How did they get past it, etc.

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embolalia.livejournal.com

Hello! (venturing in here for the first time)

It's funny, I'm working on a story right now that seems like a more succinct answer to this than I can put into words, but my take on Kara's love for Zak vs. Lee is essentially this: Zak was the first boy who loved her. We know she'd never had much parental love and there's never been a mention of her romantic history except for every indication that she's promiscuous. So the way I imagine it, having Zak actually completely love her would seem amazing, even if she didn't understand her own feelings for him very well. And then Lee came along...

I go back and forth on whether the Daybreak scenes feel a little like a retcon. The first time Lee sees Kara in a dress, he seems like it really is the first time he's seen her that way -- but then there's the scene in the mini-series when Boomer and Tyrol are running to kiss each other and cut in between is Kara seeing Lee's alive. She shakes his hand when she clearly wants to throw her arms around him the same way; it made me buy at once that they already had a history.

In the show, though, Kara talks about her feelings less than almost anyone, and Zak is such a "talky" subject, I think it would have taken a lot of contrivance on the part of the writers to bring it up. If they wanted to expand on it, the place to do it would really have been in additional Daybreak flashbacks, before she had a reason to avoid the subject altogether. Or possibly during Sacrifice/Eye of Jupiter, while she and Lee are reestablishing their relationship. Or if the show ever acknowledged such simple things as birthdays and anniversaries...

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sparklegirl79.livejournal.com

Wow, it's been a while since I was over here...

So, I think that yes, in order to have the relationship that they had in the mini, they would have had to have gotten past the 'almost-frak-on-the-table' thing and become close friends of their own accord, and not just be two people occasionally brought into contact with each other through their relationship to Zak. I think that if they ever had gotten together Lee would have probably needed to define and differentiate himself from Zak, even if Kara tried to blow it off with an "I know you're different people. Geeze."

That said, I think that depending on when in canon they finally gave in and started something would have a lot to do with how much of a shadow Zak cast between them. Earlier in the series, they'd have to have some serious talks about Zak, (I think that even though Lee appears to have forgiven her for her part in Zak's death, he'd probably find those thoughts coming back if they started something, and he'd have to reevaluate it thoroughly. But he'd come to the same conclusion, because he loves her, of course), but the farther they move into the series, the more their relationship isn't about Zak, it's about them, and what they've been through together. In the end, they've been in a relationship, even if it wasn't always sexual or even romantic, for longer than she and Zak had. He's still a part, of course, but by then, a much smaller part than in the mini. And by then there's Sam to deal with as well. As much as we don't like to have to deal with him...

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pressdbtwnpages.livejournal.com

I still can't get past how much retconning was done in the Daybreaks. I feel like what was stated in the mini is explicitly contradicted later (and not just the Lee and Kara bits, the timeline/amount of experience of Laura's political history is also changed). So I can't even really answer the question coherently, because the Daybreak flashbacks are just wrong. Really, really wrong.

Although I do seem to recall Katee saying in an interview that she and Jamie decided that the reason Kara and Lee weren't together was that Kara met the wrong brother first. So maybe Daybreak was an attempt to validate that?

Also, do we know WHY the powers that be decided they hated Lee/Kara so much? Because they could have stopped writing it at any point, but they dangled carrots for the entire series. And that puzzles me.

...This didn't address ANY of the posed questions, and I really like Zak too /o\

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scifishipper.livejournal.com

*dons mini-ranty hat*

I am probably in the minority to say that I can't really stand Zak. He seems artificial to me because there is so little of him present in the show related to K/L. (I do enjoy his storyline related to Adama.) I guess it's a basic reason that the two of them never got together, but why? Seems like were were just supposed to assume that one or both of them had a prohibition against being together because of Zak? How do we know that? He's barely mentioned between them (related to their romance) except in UB...and even then it doesn't really ring true for me. I remember thinking, ZAK?? Really? It was about the same reaction I had to Lee supposedly just realizing that he loved Kara. O_o??? Really??

I lump Zak in the mix with Gianne - badly thought out, used when reasons to keep pilots apart are needed. Later Zak was replaced by Sam. Plot device.

Sorry for being grumpy about this (*bats eyelashes*) but every time I read his name in fic, I groan. (And I've written him, too, because it's canon that there's some barrier involving Zak between pilots). My favorite Zak was a fic over on FF.net that featured him as kind of psychopathic - that I really enjoyed. Other than that, he's so undefined and boring to me and I usually just want him to go away.

*resumes bright shiny happy shipping*

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My favorite Zak was a fic over on FF.net that featured him as kind of psychopathic - that I really enjoyed.

hee. There's one on FF.net where Zak's an evil cylon that holds a special place in my heart. ;)

I really like when writers make something more of Zak than just he's nice, not because I think he wasn't, I just like when his incredibly blank canvas is used differently. Why not take advantage of what canon left out?

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scifishipper.livejournal.com

I could not agree more! Using Zak for something interesting is always fun. I mean, I do like a well-written, multi-dimensional Zak when I come across him, but making him a villain is particularly delicious!

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Elly's Circumstance is the best Zak of all time, yo! He's so real and non-saintly. Love it.

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Random tardy comment is random and tardy, but your evil!Zak love is reminding me of

leda13's fic "Eris and Aurora," which I think gives the most realistic scenario for Zak as a villain (namely that he knew he had no chance of passing flight school on his own merits and so decided early on to seduce the woman who would later become his flight instructor). Eeeeeep.

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"Eris and Aurora" is one of my favorite shades of Zak.

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KD, do you know if leda13 ever finished Eris and Aurora? There was only one chapter left and I've searched high and low for it.

Thanks!

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sammy567.livejournal.com

You're viewpoint on Zak is interesting. You're right, the writers did whip out his name whenever a plot device was needed. Now I'm wondering what a BSG universe where Zak d/n exist would be like.

I find myself drawn to writing about him because there's so little known about him, that he's a blank slate. You can do whatever you want with his character and his relationship with others, because nothing's known. I'm drawn towards his relationship with Lee, just because they seem to be the only siblings mentioned on the show.

I do dislike how he's always portrayed as immature and carefree and easy going and everyone loves him. I'd love to see evil Zak or any of the ones everyone's mentioned, especially evil cylon!Zak! Where are these stories?

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Reading all of your varied answers inspired some vague, sorta schmoopy ficlet about Zak breaking up with Kara and Lee being there to pick up the pieces.

It's longer than your average comment fic so I posted it on my own LJ here (http://taragel.livejournal.com/164891.html#cutid1)

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Hee! It's interesting how Zak strikes different K/L fans differently. I've always been pretty fond of him, largely I think because he got in on the ground floor for me in both canon and fanon.

In canon, the Kara/Zak tragedy was established from day one, and the first full-on character study of Kara - Act of Contrition - had Zak absolutely at the heart of it, and that stunning scene between KS and EJO just completely tore my heart out. When she said, "He wanted it so much, and I was just so in love with him...I couldn't stand to be the one who crushed him," I just could not do anything but believe her. Her heart was so broken and so completely on display there, it was one of the things that made me fall in love with her character in the first place. (That's part of why I was irked at the end of the series when the flashbacks suggested that she hadn't been that serious about Zak to begin with). For K/L, lots of later "obstacle to their love" plots had inherent problems - Gianne was dropped in out of nowhere; Sam inexplicably became Kara's "reason to live" after spending, like, a week with her; Dee was supposed to become Lee's top priority even though he never even once managed to be emotionally honest with her - but they didn't have to retcon Zak because he was there from the start, and since we didn't have to watch the Kara/Zak relationship develop onscreen it didn't carry the problems of timing and credibility that the later Quad relationships did.

Also, for me, Zak felt like a "safe" threat to the K/L relationship, in that he was more a focal point for their own feelings than any kind of competitor - he was already six feet under, Kara was never going to end up with him. The Zak thing wasn't so much about Kara being in love with a dead guy; it was about her being 'in hate' with herself for what she had done to him, and that makes her more interesting, IMO. Also, I liked that, when they first met, the main obstacle to K/L was not primarily their own flaws, but rather it was their love for another person who was very close to them both and who would be hurt if they put their own new, unexpected, and powerful desires first. That's interesting, too, in an Edith Wharton "Age of Innocence" kind of way.

In fanon, many of the first fanfic authors I read, like

mercurial_wit,

sangga,

daphnaea,

stars_like_dust,

brynnmck, and

suffolkgirl, and

flowrs4ophelia often wrote K/L in the pre-mini, "Academy" era, and Zak was a beautiful part of many of those stories. I liked the way they imagined those complicated early dynamics between Kara, Zak, and Lee.

But I agree that it did seem weird for the show to completely forget about him for years and then bring him up in episodes like UB or Daybreak, as if he was *still* the crux of K/L's problems. That didn't ring true.

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