No Takebacks

I remember the one by wisteria_ but I think it's the first time I've seen the other one. Thanks. :)

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It's interesting to try to separate canon from fanon on this point. I'd say:

1) Dee. She knows that Lee is in love with Kara and that the two of them always come back to each other and she's visibly disgusted when Lee refuses to admit that he's been having an affair. She pretty much knows what's going on most of the time, fairly accurately.

2) Tyrol. I get the distinct impression that Tyrol knows from the very beginning that Kara and Lee love each other. There's the way he tells Kara about Lee's supposed death in the miniseries (and she turns around and asks about Sharon, which implies that Chief/Sharon and Kara/Lee are fairly equivalent "I know how much this person means to you even though you can't admit it publicly" relationships). Then there's the little head-bob "it's none of my business, but I think you guys should get a room" look he gives Kara after watching the "smack you in the mouth" exchange in 33. Then there's the bitter drinking-buddy "do you ever think about Sharon?" exchange he has with Lee in "Taking a Break," where he knows exactly what Lee is really asking about. And then there's the wonderful little moment in Maelstrom when Lee asks Tyrol if he's tried to talk to Kara about what's bothering her, and Tyrol just looks at Lee and says, "You talk to her." And Lee stares at him for a second, and then just gives a little nod, like they understand each other perfectly.

3) Roslin. She figures out early that Lee has no objectivity where Kara is concerned ("Are you very close to Captain Thrace?" / "I'm close with all my pilots.") She sees the reunion kiss in "Home." At the beginning of Season Four when Kara returns from the dead she says to Bill, "what if the Cylons are playing you?" and then glances at Lee and adds, "Both of you?" I think for a while she might not have been sure whether it was a family thing or a romance thing between Lee and Kara, but I think by the time we got to "Home," there was really not much room for doubt on that score anymore.

4) Zarek. He sees the kiss in "Home" as well. Files it away, I'm sure, but he never really does much with that info.

5) Tigh. Kara tells him what happened on New Caprica. I'm not sure he takes it very seriously. I think he might believe Kara and Lee are just UST; certainly he agrees with her that she's an idiot for having slept with Lee. But clearly he assumes Lee cares about her; he tells Kara that Lee would bend the rules for her if she asked him for the medicine Sam needed. When she expresses doubt, he says, "That was a long time ago. People change." I think he assumes their relationship was more casual than it really was. But he definitely knows about it, and I have a hard time believing he doesn't see their instant marriages for what they were.

6) Sam. He believes Kara loves him, but also that she loves Lee and that Lee loves her. He's not really sure what Kara wants or what she will decide to do, but he sticks with her and hopes she will choose their marriage. He also tells Lee to back off if he has any sense of decency. And then tells Kara she has to follow her heart and that he's willing to let her go if she really is in love with Lee.

7) Baltar. Well, Colonial Day (or should I say Colonial Night?) made Kara's feelings abundantly clear. I think he knows it's more than just UST with them. "Does everything have to come down to your feelings about Kara Thrace?" he asks Lee.

8) Romo Lampkin. He tells the story about his lost love for Lee's benefit more than Caprica's. "You've had enough stolen from you." "People look at you like you're bleeding out of your side." Yep. It takes him all of ten minutes to figure it out.

Oddly enough, I don't think Helo knows that much about Kara/Lee. It's surprising, given that he's so close to Kara, but they never talk about Lee, and I can't remember so much as a significant look from Karl about anything that goes on between those two. He and Kara talk about Sam more than once. And from what we see in "The Woman King" I feel like Helo takes the Lee/Dee marriage seriously, he's friends with both of them and doesn't say a word to indicate whether he's ever noticed any of their problems.

*shrugs* Those are my impressions, anyway :)

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shah-of-blah.livejournal.com

I have to agree with your impressions, especially with regards to Helo. It's tempting to cast him as the all-knowing best friend who understands Kara better than she understands herself and therefore knows where her heart truly lies and all that, but it's not really backed up by canon. So much of that, I think, must be Helo's timing. He doesn't see their interaction in season 1. The first time he sees Kara interested in anyone after the apocalypse (or possibly after Zak's death) it's Sam. Plus, the man takes marriage seriously; he and Sharon surely had to fight just for the right to get married.

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anamarya.livejournal.com

What can I say more.... probably nothing except that I'm so happy that i'm not alone in regards to the first part of what you said about the Chief. I said that to some persons and they almost called the shrink on me.

I think that pretty much everybody knew except the persons that didn't want to know (Bill....)

btw, even they don't say anything in canon - I strongly believe that there was a bet on them. Come on, no movies, no new books, no new persons, no sports...

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koolaidmom11.livejournal.com

That was beautifully, simply and accurately put! Kudos!

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There's also Sharon. In the Unfinished Business extended cut, there's the scene where Kara is warming up for the fight and venting to Sharon about men. Sharon asks her if by they she means Sam or Lee. By that exchange, I can only assume that she was aware that there was more going on between them than the CAG/pilot relationship, and even if not, by Kara's response about Lee always making the same mistakes with her, I think we can assume that she would deduce it then.

As an extension of this, I think maybe we should also assume that Helo was not fully in the dark given how close She and Helo were. I mean could they have discussed anything but those two after that fight? I think the whole ship was talking about them after that:)

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Good points. If Sharon, who had spent so much time in the brig, was able to see there was something there, shouldn't others be able to do the same? Especially Helo, who was Kara's friend? And after that fight I imagine the rumor mill would be working non-stop.

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anamarya.livejournal.com

Thinking about it through the day I got to the conclusion (i don't have proof just a feeling) that Helo knew but didn't really wanted to get involved because he was friend and worked with all of them and then is that part about him having very serious feelings about marriage.

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Good point about Kara's comments to Sharon in the UB fight. It makes sense to assume that Helo got some version of gossip from Sharon and/or the people who stuck around to watch that last fight (were any other regulars in the crowd during that sequence besides Sam and Dee? I can't remember. I feel like maybe you can see Kat in the crowd?) But since we never see Sharon and Helo discuss it and Helo never says anything to Kara or Lee, I think that's in the realm of "probable but speculative," rather than definitely canon. *shrugs*

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Gaeta was also in the crowd. Do you remember when Dee shouted, "Kick her ass Lee!(Ugh!!) and walked forward to the ring?(extended cut of UB)she stood next to Gaeta. The look that he gave her, implied to me that he kinda saw what was going on.

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Also, when does Baltar ask Lee " Does everything have to come down to your feelings about Kara Thrace?" How could I have totally missed that pertinent exchange?

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It came very late -- it was in "Daybreak Part One," when Baltar comes to Lee to ask him for a private chat so he could make his pitch about getting representation in the new government. Baltar claims to care about the greater good of the fleet, and Lee (clearly angry) asks him if he blabbed Kara's secret (about finding her dead body) to the whole fleet for 'the greater good.' At which point Baltar asks him if everything has to be about his feelings for Kara Thrace.

Lee doesn't answer that question :)

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Ahhh, thanks! What an astute observation from one of the most self-absorbed characters I've ever seen on TV:)

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What a comprehensive analysis. :)

I agree with much of what you say.

There's no doubt Dee knew, of course. She said so herself in UBEX. As a matter of fact, she seemed to have a clearer understanding of Lee's feelings for Kara than he did. However, considering how little she really saw him as Lee and not Apollo, that is in itself amazing. I guess it makes kind of sense, though. She alwasy seemed to read people fairly well(she did manage to get through to Adama during the mutiny arc, for example). She worked at the comms and she probably spent countless hours listening to Kara and Lee talking while on CAP or things like that (considering they even flew together all that much when they were not under attack). Besides, Lee had shifts in the CIC and she had ample opportunity to observe him react to situations that put Kara in jeopardy.

I'm not so sure about the Chief. Back in the mini, I don't think he had any reason to suspect anything. Quite honestly, I don't think Kara ever talked about Lee (or Zac, for that matter) with her fellow crew mates. I simply assumed people knew she had been engaged to the Commander's dead son and that it was an off-limits subject, that she was somewhat close to Adama and knew his other son, who everybody was more or less curious to meet because they admired the Old Man so much. And that was why he mentioned it to Kara - because she knew him from before. As for the look he gave Kara in 33, well, he observed the whole exchange between them kind of baffled that she was talking to a superior officer like that and that he would allow her to talk to him like that. I think he was still appraising what kind of CAG Lee was. And of course, it was clear that they knew each other enough for her to feel at ease to respond like that (not that it was necessary for Starbuck to speak her mind, mind you).

I don't think there was ever any question that they were friends and, therefore, cared for each other. And in the aftermath of a holocaust, it's only natural that friends sticks together and, with the exception of Adama, Kara was the only person Lee had known from before who was still alive. If you add to that the fact that she had been almost family, it would be enough to justify his protective behaviour towards her. But it still didn't necessarily spell love to the ones around them.

As for Laura Roslin, I think the kiss in Home was something difficult to write off as just friendship. Yes, he had been willing to put the fleet at risk when she was lost on that moon, but so had Adama and I don't think anybody ever suspected there was anything remotely romantic between those two. And Laura spent most of her time on Colonial One and didn't have so many opportunities to see Kara and Lee interact.

I totally agree with you about Baltar (he'd have to be deaf not to know, but he was too self-absorved to think about it, I guess), Tigh (although I'm not sure he suspected anything before that night on New Caprica), Zarek (again, because of the kiss, but it never served his purposes to use that) and Romo (because he was supposed to be a master at reading people and he met Lee while he was grieving).

Sam is more complicated. Did he know something when he got married? If he didn't suspect anything before, I'd imagine Kara's and Lee's reaction when he told Lee the news about the wedding would have made him start suspecting something then.I think the moment of truth for him came during the fight in UB. And in EOJ, he implied that Kara slept around when he confronted Lee about the "affair". I think he knew by then that , unlike the other guys, Lee could be a real threat to him. But I find it very difficult to understand the kind of love he had for Kara, how he could accept being treated the way he was. I admired him when he gave her an out and told her to go to Lee if that was what she truly wanted.

Helo is also difficult to understand. I keep going back to the conversation he had with Kara about how Sam had given her a reason to live. It just feels so wrong to me that I can't understand how a real friend who could think that. After the fight in UB he must have realized what was going on. And he must have known about the "affair". Even if Kara never openly said anything.

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Slightly off topic, but that line by Sam about Lee not being the first kinda threw me. Not that I couldn't imagine Kara doing it, but I kept wondering, who are these other men she's sleeping with? The other pilots? Marines?

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I have mixed feelings about that myself. *shrugs*

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anamarya.livejournal.com

I like your assessment about Dee's knowledge but I love this However, considering how little she really saw him as Lee and not Apollo. I always felt that she loved Apollo - the commanding voice during battles, the rank and position, his tactical mind, but she didn't really liked Lee.

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Nice analysis, yourself :) I think you make a good point that the early moments when Tyrol seemed sensitive to their relationship he could have just seen friendship/familial feeling there. I think by the time we get to third season, though, with the stuff in TABFAYW and Maelstrom, it's pretty clear that he knows the two of them have been much more than friends.

I agree that there's no evidence Sam knew about the Lee situation before he married Kara. How could he have? Kara and Lee were on different ships for the entire time after Kara rescued him, Lee was in a relationship with someone else, and Kara was in an apparently very intense physical relationship with him which culminated in her waking him up one morning and asking him to marry her out of the blue. To him, it must have looked like he was the center of her world up to that point. She'd risked her life for him, she had focused her post-rescue life around him, she was moving to New Caprica to start a life with him. The problems in their actual marriage I think may have come as a bit of a surprise to him, but he seems to have dealt with them without feeling too insecure about Kara's love for him - he apparently waved off whatever infidelities she pursued as part of her independent/reckless/temperamental/hedonistic side and didn't see them as reasons to give up on their marriage.

I think after New Caprica he thought Kara's behavior had more to do with PTSD than with any real problems she had with him, and he was willing to stick around and hope she worked through her issues. I think the seriousness of the Kara/Lee relationship blindsided him around the time of UB, as you say, and instead of trying to argue with Kara he tried to argue with Lee. Rather successfully, I'd say - Lee was a lot more susceptible to guilt over the question of adultery than Kara was. Throughout, I think Sam insisted to Kara that he was ready offer her freedom and let her make her own choices while hoping that by making himself unreservedly available and utterly undemanding he would stay her preferred option. Again, I think he accurately suspected that the easier he made the relationship the more likely Kara would be to choose it over something more difficult/complicated/demanding, and he may have suspected that Kara/Lee was bound to implode under the weight of its own complications anyway.

He hoped (and deep down believed) Kara really did love him and would wake up to that if he gave her enough time and didn't push her. I think it's very telling that on the Demetrius when Kara point-blank tells him that she married him because he was the safe and easy choice and he was weak enough to go along with it, he absolutely refuses to believe her. He says he doesn't think she even believes what she's saying. And then he once again offers a good frak when she asks for it as if that's going to prove something about how she really feels. I feel very bad for Sam, even worse than I feel for Dee, who went into this mess with her eyes more or less wide open.

I don't know about Helo, I really don't. I think he cared a lot about Kara but I think, like Bill, he was pretty good at not seeing things he didn't want to see, and also good at not worrying about things he couldn't change. I think he was blind to a lot of serious problems in his own marriage and I think he tended to support Kara in whatever feelings she expressed to him, and the only ones we see her express to him on film are surrounding Sam. We can speculate about what they talked about off-screen, but we just didn't see anything re: Lee. *shrugs*

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I think by the time we get to third season, though, with the stuff in TABFAYW and Maelstrom, it's pretty clear that he knows the two of them have been much more than friends.

I tend to think that the cat got out of the bag somewhat in UB and in EOJ. But it's entirely possible to think otherwise and to interpret their conversation in TAB as something more hypothetical and the Chief's line in Maelstrom as his deferring to the CAG, who was also closer to Kara than he was. All in all, altough in fandom it's so common to assume most everybody knew or suspected something because of the looks they exchanged, the small touches we got to appreciate so much, the few but meaningful small things that it is nice to imagine the people who lived with them notice those moments as well, what with everyone living in such close quarters and all. And part of me still thinks it should have been rather obvious. But in reality they were so discreet, so private (even Kara, despite her louder behavior) that it is entirely possible that it was not that obvious at all. Although, I have just remembered their fight on the hangardeck after the Baltar incident and they were not exactly quiet about it. Besides, the punches flying around then were just too personal (if it had involved a professional dispute of some kind, charges would have been filed, I guess). *shrugs*
Anyway, if I can speculate that most people didn't know, then I have to review my opinion that Adama's lack of vision here was not such a poor reflection of him as a father after all. *ponders*

I feel very bad for Sam, even worse than I feel for Dee, who went into this mess with her eyes more or less wide open.

I feel bad for Sam because I think Kara treated him really badly sometimes, whereas Lee was dishonest and sometimes cold/indifferent with Dee, but never outright mean. However, it's easier for me to understand Dee's behavior in that whole mess that it is to understand Sam's. That he would just accept her (alleged) infidelities and her mistreatment of him with the hope that she would choose him in the end is just so far from what I could personally accept in a relationship that I just can't relate to that. And it really surprises when I hear the Kara/Sam fans defending the idea that he was so much better for her than Lee or that their relationship was healthier somehow because he accepted her as she was. Or that Lee was bad for her because he never seriously pursued her, allowing her to realize he really loved her, but Sam's completely "set them free" philosophy is somehow a testament to his feelings. But I digress... Now, if people didn't notice the Q of D drama, they were all blind.

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