Girls and Boys

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

Hey, all. Sorry this post is pretty late in the day - We had some connection issues at the house earlier :(

Today we're going to talk about Pilots and Gender.

Some time over a year ago was when I first became aware of this trend throughout different fandoms of genderbending characters, creating an AU in which one or more characters has always been the opposite sex. I recently got to thinking about the fact that this never took off in BSG fandom at all, but a good reason for that is that we simply don't need it. We have canon genderbend in Starbuck and Boomer being women, and we also have little to do with genderbend characters because the universe is impressively gender-neutral, and the way the characters would be treated by others or the behavioral expectation wouldn't affect much of a change on them.

On the topic of our beloved pilots, I think a lot of us are very attached to how they consistently subvert gender stereotypes. I love joking about Lee being a little bit of a princess and Kara wearing the pants in the relationship, but in my opinion it truly exists completely outside stereotyped relationship structures and is about them being equals. They both display a wide spectrum of unpredictable strengths and vulnerabilities, and it makes both of them great characters and is a big part of why the relationship always felt fresh.

So. I'm going to ask you to do something that might mentally be a little...uncomfortable, and ask yourself: What if Apollo was the woman and Starbuck was still a man?

Below the cut I have a couple casting choices for this switch, but as a general disclaimer, this was REALLY hard, especially with Starbuck. I'm a big believer in Katee's contribution being extremely important to the creation of Starbuck as Kara, and it's almost impossible to imagine her being played by any other woman, let alone...

Channing Tatum. Yeah, I can already imagine half of you are like "WTF? The Step Up guy?" Or you might recognize him from that awful movie Fighting or that other awful movie Dear John. Funny thing is, the only thing I've seen Tatum in is this little indie film called A Guide To Recognizing Your Saints. He plays this bullying, belligerent teenager who seems to bring disaster everywhere, and yet he plays it with a lot of vulnerability and complexity.

I feel obligated to name Chris Pine as a runner-up. (Our Katee is actually a hugely popular choice for girl!Kirk in Star Trek fandom.)

I thought of Rhona Mitra for Apollo because she's done action hero type stuff (in addition to a stint of professionally cosplaying Lara Croft - rawr) but also played a clever paralegal in The Practice and Boston Legal.


1. Do you have any other casting suggestions?

2. Feel free to brainstorm about how different the show would have been if the genderswitch had been Apollo rather than Starbuck. Would Apollo challenge any stereotypes about women? Would Starbuck's complicated character challenge how we think about men in a way the original character didn't? How would some points of their relationship have felt a lot different (and perhaps less appealing) if they were switched?

Comments

[eridani8.livejournal.com]

Interesting DPP! Makes you go, 'Hmmm...'.

You make a good point about the BSGverse being largely gender non-discriminate. Gender issues got played with a little, whenever someone made a snide remark about Roslin being a school teacher, but for the most part went unremarked upon.

So what would have happened if the gender swap had been Apollo rather than Starbuck? I think the fact that Apollo has a position of leadership, i.e. is the CAG, would make it difficult to cast the role as a female without falling into stereotypes. Women in positions of power tend to be depicted in one of two ways: either they're macho and manly enough to keep up with the men (kind of like a Starbuck), or they're ice queen, ball-breaker types (which is probably the camp where Roslin tends to lie). I'm not saying all women in power are like this, but they tend to be the general tropes audiences respond to. I have the feeling, that a female Apollo would probably fall into the latter of those two camps as well, which would definitely change the dynamic in the air group.

Starbuck as a male... well we've sort of seen the evidence of that already. The big difference in the 2003 series is that Kara can get away with being emotionally damaged and baggage ridden in a way a male character might not, as far as TV ratings and audiences go. Emotionally damaged women are more easily recognised than their male counter parts- they usually just get described as 'unavailable' despite the fact it amounts to much the same thing. Another thing that would be a much less appealing aspect of Starbuck's character is she were a he, is Starbuck's propensity for physical methods of conflict resolution. For some reason society seems to think it's ok women (who are assumed to be in a weaker physical position than men) to even the score by being violent with men- think about all those slaps across the face you see female characters laying out, in any show- but that is definitely not ok for men to initiate violence against women (perhaps again, because of the assumed power balance already being in favour of men?). I think Starbuck's physicality would definitely run against some serious moral condemnation if it were coming from a male rather than a female. Just think about recasting the dance in UB if you had a macho, powerful, male Starbuck, going up against the female, reserved, intense, but physically smaller Apollo... it doesn't seem to make as much sense, or be as evenly matched, right?

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the physicality of the character is definitely hard to picture as being something we would be comfortable with. We're not exactly like "Go Kara!" whenever she throws a punch (unless we feel somebody really deserves it), but it's a positive aspect in that it's not a cliched flaw or habit for a female to have. It brings to mind how Kara seems a little bit messier, IMO, than more contrived tough-girl conventions, because she not only gets a lot of the strength that's typically seen as masculine but a lot of supposedly masculine problems too.

[eridani8.livejournal.com]

I think you're completely right about Kara being 'messier' than the average tough girl, both literally (we are repeatedly told her hygine leaves something to be desired) and metaphorically (punch first, think later; the seeming casual approach she has to infidelity- I'm thinking particularly of the unknown 'other guys' Sam spoke of).

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

How would some points of their relationship have felt a lot different (and perhaps less appealing) if they were switched?

Well, I definitely think "Unfinished Business" would have played A LOT differently if a male Starbuck had dumped a female Apollo (Apollonia?) the way that Kara dumped Lee in that episode. (And I think fandom would hate a Male!Dee a lot less than it hates Female!Dee and would probably dislike Female!Sam a lot more than it dislikes Male!Sam.)

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I also thought of the way the show's sexual politics are perceived. I think that if Kara were male and Sam were female their relationship would invite accusations of sexism, given that it would portray a man openly cheating on his wife but continuing to use her for sex without apologies, and the woman sticking with the relationship in the belief that eventually her availability and unconditional support would convert her husband into feeling real, committed love for her. I think it could have been labeled sexist as well as unhealthy. I think many people's problems with Dee were similar, in the way she was portrayed as always "standing by her man" and investing in a bad relationship in the hope that it would become good.

I don't think that the BSG writers built in a gendered double standard, per se, in that I think we were invited to disapprove of both Kara and Lee's behavior to their respective spouses (Kara didn't get a free pass from the writers because she was a woman, though she seems to have gotten a free pass as a character from Sam). I think we were also invited to see something admirable in both Dee and Sam's dogged loyalties, so again there was not a gendered double standard there, though I personally found both of their attitudes very frustrating.

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

One of the things that made me the most uncomfortable thinking about this was how an audience (probably including me) would react a lot differently to Kara's infidelity. It's strange, cause in some ways and some contexts I think people are unfairly more forgiving of men for sleeping around, and in other contexts more forgiving of women.

[swamp-ariadne.livejournal.com]

jumping into the fray, i think that if the genders had been reversed the PLOT itself might have still come to the same point. Maybe it isn't Kara/Starbuck that cheats, maybe it will be Apollonia that would not be able to commit emotionally. It would sort of make sense - Apollonia would be the one who doesn't believe in divorce because it would be dishonorable or whatever. It would have been interesting to see Kara/Starbuck (will Starbuck retain his old name from the previous series? i guess he will) as an emotionally damaged/vulnerable man. Because of the gender politics of this generation the writers may write him more emo and less physically violent (he's probably still a drunk - but not at Saul Tigh level). this is a difficult bit of meta to process - but i think that both of them would still be BAMF.

[ddt73.livejournal.com]

I don't know, I have plenty of hate for both Dee and Sam, I'm not so sure it would matter if their sexes would switch at least for me. Though I do think their perceptions in general would be different overall.

If it was a male Starbuck dumping a female Apollo it would have felt cliche, but switching the "usual" roles made it work.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

This is an extremely interesting question but I am having a very hard time processing it because I cannot conceive of someone else playing Starbuck or Starbuck not being a woman. (I know, I know. Dirk Benedict. But that was an entirely different show from this one.)

One thing that's especially hard to imagine is a man carrying the kind of guilt that Kara has and exhibits in AOC/YCGHA. Can you picture a male starbuck telling a female Apollo that he failed her younger sister, his fiancee because he loved her too much and that got her killed? Or how about a male Starbuck confessing to Adama that he got his daughter killed and then breaking down in tears? I don't know... it's really hard to imagine.

[swamp-ariadne.livejournal.com]

but that would be an emmy-award winning performance - the kind of actor that can be vulnerable and still be BAMF.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

It would...but I don't know that many shows would write it that way. I guess despite the gender switcharoo, her behavior is maybe still female-coded? I dunno.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

Although on second thought, it's kind of annoying to think that would be viewed as emmy-winning for a man but it wasn't enough to get Katee an emmy? Or even a nod?

IDK...

[swamp-ariadne.livejournal.com]

you're right. it is kind of annoying, but the reality i guess is that because women are still "expected" to be better at emotional vulnerability that's what we get. books like women are from venus and men are from mars wouldn't sell if people still don't live the gender stereotypes. and we're just talking about heterosexual relationships here... omg gender politics is a headache.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

I can imagine a man having that kind of guilt about killing off his fiancee (but I think the viewers would perhaps see a man's actions vis-a-vis a female student very differently than we saw Kara's actions vis-a-vis Zak, because our world is still more gendered than the BSG one? That is to say, I would find a male teacher/professor carrying on a clandestine affair with a female student much more offensive in the first place than I did the Kara/Zak thing.) Also, I think if Lee and Zak were girls, then I have the impression that Adama would also have to be female, because I don't think that Adama's "a man isn't a man until he wears the wings of a Viper pilot" shtick would work on children of the opposite gender. (I'm not just being facetious here, I really think that some of the Adama vs. Adama generational conflicts have to do with father vs. son, so Bill rebels against Joseph and in turn Zak and Lee rebel/don't rebel against their own father.) So I think in order for that to work, Bill Adama would have to be switched out for Socrata Thrace.

[callmeonetrack.livejournal.com]

I'm so sick of the male teacher-female student relationships that are EVERYWHERE on TV right now.

But for Bill and Starbuck, the thing that would still work is Starbuck being the son he never had. I could also see a strained relationship btw Bill and Leah (hee)with the whole struggle of not understanding each other b/c different personality type or whatever.

[reginaspina.livejournal.com]

. I could also see a strained relationship btw Bill and Leah (hee)with the whole struggle of not understanding each other b/c different personality type or whatever.

Yeah, but ... I just don't have the impression from Bill that he'd have put the same kind of pressure to succeed as a Viper pilot on his DAUGHTERS. That some of what he was looking for in his sons was to validate his own choice of repudiating his own father's career. (In other words, I think conflicts between mothers/daughters and fathers/sons seem to be more hardwired than fathers vs. daughters. Although now I'm hilariously thinking of Leeah as Bill's little princess and of her somehow disappointing him - maybe an unsuitable boyfriend? - and their being all flouncy with each other. Because Bill is very dramatic too. OH DEAR!!! In fact, now i'm picturing Bill as Buddy Garrity and Lee as Lyla Garrity. And Kara is then obviously Tim :P)

(P.S. You unaccountably forgot to participate in the love-in yesterday so I took the liberty of adding you in (http://community.livejournal.com/no_takebacks/120967.html?thread=7219847#t7219847) :D (If you really hate those things or whatever, I apologize and will delete my comment, but the sentiments still stand!!)

[entaiaime.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with you about Chris Pine. He was the first person I thought of as Starbuck.

I'm not sure about Apollo though...