![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
rachelindeed.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
no_takebacksHi everyone! Happy 4th of July! I hope you’re all having a wonderful, relaxing weekend. I’m Rachel, and it’s my pleasure to be hosting the DPP this week. I'm jumping the gun a bit by posting a day early, but I didn't want the 4th to pass without a chance to honor our pilotician heroes :) I’m planning on posting a discussion topic each day except for next Sunday, which I’d like to leave open so that people who are too busy to comment every day can still have time to read over the weekly developments and add their thoughts to earlier posts at the end of the week. Sunday will also be an opportunity for all of you to start new conversations as the spirit moves you :) But till then, you’re stuck with me! BWA-HA-HA-HA.
Today’s post is a split-personality patriotic celebration, half silly and half serious.
Silly first:
Be Smarter. And Wronger. Sometimes you gotta roll the hard six.
VOTE APOLLO / STARBUCK VOTE ROSLIN / ADAMA
148,000 B.C.E. 148,000 B.C.E.
Let’s imagine presidential competitions between our favorite characters. I think Apollo/Starbuck versus Roslin/Adama could be entertaining (imagine the Vice Presidential debates!), but feel free to run our pilots against each other, or alone, or in different pairs as you see fit. Give them political slogans, bumper stickers, campaign posters, party names and platforms, or write a little snippet of their speeches and debates. Have fun!
And if anyone is in a more contemplative mood…
On the Fourth of July it seems only natural to think about the men and women of the armed services. I would say that BSG in general provided a positive view of the military, and we’ve certainly discussed what our pilots’ individual roles and callsign personas meant to them. But I’m curious: what do you think the military itself meant to them? What did they value about the ethics and lifestyle of the service? What did they dislike about it? Were Kara and Lee’s views of the meaning of their work similar or different? To what extent was soldiery their true calling at any given time? What aspects of their personalities, good and bad, did it develop, which might otherwise have gone unrealized? It’s interesting to me that the military seems to have been a second choice for both of them. They were each pressured to join from an early age by a domineering parent, though both apparently planned to make their own way pursuing other careers (Lee was a reservist, and Kara had dreams of professional pyramid). Looking back, what do you think they’d say about this ‘second choice,’ and how it ultimately shaped their lives and the lives of others? And, not to get into any real life controversies, but if you’d like to share, I’d be curious as to whether having Kara and Lee as your favorite characters affected the way you thought about the military at all?
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 05:07 am (UTC)Well I think the military was a good fit for Kara and Lee in different ways. I think the consistency and discipline of the military was a comfort to Kara, despite how she tries to buck the system. I see it as sort of an extension of her childhood. I think in a way this was good for her because she was able to get positive attention and recognition from doing something she was really good at. I think this would have done wonders for her self esteem and leading her to think of the military as her family. I think she could have found the same sense of belonging on a pyramid team.
I think Lee suited the military more than the military suited Lee. He was raised to join up and was a great asset because of his abilities, I just don't think his heart was in it. I think he would never quit while they still needed him because of how noble he is, always trying to do the right thing. I think a life in the military would have been easy for him, but not particularly enjoyable or fulfilling.
I've always been fascinated with shows with a military setting, mostly when it's something really worth while that their fighting for. When they're fighting for their homes or their lives and not just meddling in other peoples business.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 05:22 am (UTC)It's funny you say this because back when end of s3/beginning of s4 premiered (really probably not till Six of One, Lee's big farewell), a lot of folks called bullshit on the idea that he could/would muster out during a time of war. Especially since he was the third highest-ranking (and at one time second-highest) member of the military.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 05:28 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 05:34 am (UTC)For serious, at the moment I'm going to ignore all of Rachel's lovely questions to say other stuff. ;)
One of the most interesting things to me is that they both joined at a time of peace, when there was little expectation of war becoming a reality. It's a bit surprising to me that Kara wasn't bored by the daily repetition/routines of military life. (Or maybe she was and that's why she ended up in the brig so much). I always think Dee's line about Lee needing a war, is actually most true for Kara.
For Lee, I guess the fact that he was reserves makes sense but I wish we knew what else he did with his time/why he was serving on Atlantia (for an extended period?) when the decommissioning happened. Also, if you think about it, the impression given in Black Market is that the confrontation with pregnant Gianne was the same day as/very close to the day the war started. So why was Lee all hanging out in his khakhi shorts and sneakers?
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 05:36 am (UTC)I think most people, esp. those who had military experience, just thought it was kind of ridiculous that he could do more serving as an aide to a
town councilQuorum member (which is what he originally left to do, not actually be the Caprican delegate if I recall correctly) than being the CAG. Which is really hard to argue with.no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 05:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 05:47 am (UTC)And seriously, Kara should have been (never kiled and) admiral.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 06:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 07:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 11:50 am (UTC)And Lee and the polo shirt and khaki shorts - LOL. He seems sooo incredibly uptight. :) I definitely prefer the confidence and relaxed posture of his presidency.
Interesting questions about Atlantia and the reserves - I'd forgotten. In the US Military, reservists go on brief assignments (voluntary or not) to advance in the ranks or for special training. Was a length ever specified? I've seen some "special assignment" themes in fic.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 12:06 pm (UTC)As for the military, I also love it in the show. I am generally not a fan of military tv, but there's a simplicity to the command structure that fascinates me. It adds an extra layer of tension to many of the interactions - especially Lee's defiance - it's not just a son defying a father, it's an actual punishable offense. There's also that bit in Pegasus where Roslin and Adama are speaking to Cain and Roslin mentions "forgetting" the military structure (and expressing recognition that Cain is a superior to Adama). It's a fascinating insight into the differences between civilian/military life.
I may return later with a campaign poster! Excellent DPP! HAPPY 4th of July!
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 01:30 pm (UTC)I like this comparison of the military and professional sports a lot - I'd never really realized that Kara was always drawn to lifestyles that emphasized intensely close teamwork, and that extended working relationships into private as well as public life. But you're right; I think she craved human contact and that she needed the structure of group training and the recognition that her talents were elevating the whole corps. Although in many ways it's easy to mistake her as a loner, she really isn't and she never was.
"I think Lee suited the military more than the military suited Lee."
I think you summed up a lot with that simple phrase. I agree - he was talented, and discovered new abilities when unexpected responsibilities were loaded onto him. I think the military turned out to be very good for him in terms of developing his personality and leadership skills. But I always think about that early exchange between him and his father in "Bastille Day," when his father tells him that he needs to pick his side, and he refuses to do so. I think "semper fi" is a philosophy he's never trusted; he sees flaws too clearly, in himself and in others, to be fully comfortable in an institution where debate and dissent over orders is structurally discouraged. Some of his finest moments in the military came when he was defying the chain of command.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 01:45 pm (UTC)But I think the decision could actually make sense in context. Lee has just found out that the President is dying of cancer once again; her Vice President is Zarek, who is bad bad news, and no one else in the civilian governing structure has *any* knowledge of, relation to, or trust established with the Admiral or the military. In my opinion, Roslin's illness returned the civilian authority to the status of "disaster waiting to happen," and a breakdown between the military and civilian authorities could split the fleet once again. Lee had just been deeply involved in a trial dealing with the messy after-effects of the last time they had stood aside while an inexperienced and awful replacement for Roslin led the whole human race straight to hell. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I think a few months of meditating on the lessons of New Caprica convinced Lee that he needed to be in the government when it started to fall apart this time. And as events proved, it was a good thing he was.
I think they could have played a lot more with that in "Sine Qua Non" - but even as it was, neither Lampkin nor Lee seemed particularly surprised when he seemed to emerge as the best choice to take over.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 01:47 pm (UTC)I think that sums it up quite well. :)
I think the consistency and discipline of the military was a comfort to Kara, despite how she tries to buck the system. I see it as sort of an extension of her childhood.
Yes, I also like this. I think, echoing Tara, after time the routine and repetition might bore her.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 01:59 pm (UTC)As for Lee, I don't know how the reserves work at all, honestly. I get the sense that Lee kept saying he was going to do something else with his life, but that he kept extending his enlistments until he came up with an actual concrete better idea. I think that led to a lot of volunteering and putting off the big decisions he felt deep down he needed to make. I would have thought if he were going to break with the military, it would have been after Zak's death. He certainly broke with his father at that point. But maybe he would have felt like leaving the service at that moment could be seen as cowardly, or would have justified the nepotism rumors he'd probably run into before. I think maybe he wanted to prove he could succeed in the military without his father's approval; maybe he even intended to serve out Zak's enlistment (four years?) as a way of honoring him. I don't know. But it's interesting to speculate.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 02:07 pm (UTC)Cheers!
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 02:18 pm (UTC)First, I think you make a very good point defending the reasons why Lee's decision to leave the military made sense. Although I've always thought a career in politics made sense for him and I loved President Lee, I confess I missed "Captain Apollo" a lot and I didn't like the way they decided to go in that direction. I have to agree with Taragel here: the direction was a good one, but the execution, not so much. Another example of poor writing. And what bothers me the most about it is that I had the impression the representatives to the Quorum were elected (they were a democracy, after all), so how could Zarek simply nominate him? Not very democratic, if you ask me. And Zarek of all people? The whole thing seemed rather contrived to me.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 02:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 02:58 pm (UTC)Yes, it's easy to forget how much courage it actually takes to fight against an enemy when your life might very well end. I love that BSG does not shy away from the terror of that, even when the soldiers are trained against the fear. I'm thinking about Starbuck coming back in the mini with a blown off tail section: the Chief asks how she landed the bird and she makes an off-handed comment about not wanting to think about it. Other characters make similar comments throughout. Of course, BSG doesn't really gloss over the pain and fear, does it. I think that's one of the things that makes it so remarkable.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 02:59 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 03:02 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 03:21 pm (UTC)I like your argument for it. But still the execution (to me anyway) felt kind of aimless. All those endless quorum scenes were soooo dull in the first half of s4, so I would've liked to have seen perhaps a different route to the presidency.
Although honestly, on a personal level, it just didn't make sense to me that Lee would go off in a different direction with Kara back. It actually invalidated Romo's whole argument for me and I felt like Lee learned nothing from that clearly, because here he was with this miraculous second chance...and he's like "OK I'll see ya later" and then they're never together again practically for all of S4.
I know it's because the writers were out of ideas of what to do with K/L and didn't really want them together or whatever anyway, but their motivations were showing and that made his departure make even less sense (and be of less interest) to me.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 03:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 03:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 08:27 pm (UTC)As for his being nominated rather than elected, I always thought that the previous Caprican representative resigned or became incapacitated, and that Lee was nominated to serve out the remainder of their term, the same way Roslin took over Adar's term. He would face an election eventually, at the same time as the other Quorum delegates. Zarek, as Vice President and head of the Quorum (like the American Vice President is technically the head of the Senate), seems like the logical person to have the authority to appoint mid-term replacements.
The confusing thing to me is why Zarek would have nominated Lee, of all people? He must have known that Lee would not be his puppet. This is pure speculation, but I think that once the news about Roslin's cancer got out, Zarek stepped up his plans to take over the government, which eventually ended in the mutiny. He was a realist and an astute judge of character, and he must have thought it unlikely that Admiral Adama would simply allow the presidency to pass to him once Roslin died. He expected to be cut out of power; to prevent that, he needed time to recruit allies. So he needed someone else to be the focus of Roslin's ire and attention while he made his behind-the-scenes plans. He knew Lee would make trouble for her, he knew she was furious with Lee and would expend a lot of energy battling with him. I think, in Zarek's mind, Lee's job was to make small-scale trouble and keep everyone occupied until he, Zarek, was ready to make his move. Then, of course, Lee would be the first against the wall when the revolution came :) Once in power, Zarek had no problem with shooting dissenters, as he later proved.
Once again a case where the characters' actions made potential sense, they just weren't explored.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 08:45 pm (UTC)And although I think Lee's reasons for switching from the military to the civilian side of things could potentially have made sense, they just weren't explored onscreen. And yes, the Quorum stuff was dull, although I tended to like his direct confrontations with Roslin. The two of them were always interesting, especially when they were convinced that the other one's worldview was dangerous.
I can't actually sit through "Sine Qua Non" because I find the Romo hold-up scene so ridiculous. But I thought it was interesting that apparently Jamie Bamber argued vociferously for a chance to show that Lee knew exactly what he was doing when he put himself in position to take over for Roslin. Basically the writers said, "We can't portray him as back-stabbing and ambitious," to which Jamie said, "But he *is* ambitious, and it's not like he's doing this for an egomaniacal power trip, he's doing it because he knows his own worth and he thinks he can save the fleet by doing exactly this. Please, let me *want* this. Let me show why he cares about this." So in the final script they tried to compromise, but I don't think it came across very clearly. But I think Jamie had a point, that one of the things that storyline was missing was the sense that Lee saw the crisis coming and that he deliberately put himself in the place he thought he could do the most good, and that he thought the stakes were high enough to be worth fighting for.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 08:55 pm (UTC)As for the most serious questions, I think Somethingusual made very good points and I pretty much agree with everything she (?) said. Here is what I might add.
What do you think the military itself meant to them? What did they value about the ethics and lifestyle of the service?
Well, both of them had very strong ties to the military because of their family backgrounds but I think they would view the service in different ways. I think Kara would be first attracted by the possibility to distinguish herself and maybe prove her mother wrong. Besides, she is an adventurous person, she likes danger and adrenaline and even in peace times the military get involved in dangerous missions where you have to put your courage and your skills to the test. And considering they had Twelve Colonies to deal with and that at least some of them seemed to go through some sort of social or political upheaval, they would probably have a lot to do.
On a very personal level, I think Lee would want to distinguish himself too ,to prove himself to his father in the only field his father seemed to value. I think he liked the structure and order of military life, with its clear rules. But also , as an idealist, he appreciated that the military serve the people and the country, which is a noble cause.
What did they dislike about it?
Obeying orders. *g*
I think Kara would get bored at times, like someone pointed out above, but I think the worst part was to obey orders from someone she didn't respect just because they were their superior. Also, as somewhat of a free spirit, the excessive number of rules and regulations would make her life difficult. Hence, lots of rule-breaking and hack time.
To Lee, the most difficult thing would be to obey blindly. I think he understood and respected the need for obedience and hierarchy but he is a thinker. To be out of the loop of decisions and to follow orders whithout understanding why they are needed or when he was clearly against them, this was very difficult for him.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 08:58 pm (UTC)Who can say? It's another puzzle.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 08:59 pm (UTC)The one thing I do like in Sine Qua Non (which fails in many ways for me) is that assessment of Romo's that Lee is more ambitious than he let on. "One could argue that Laura Roslin is a study in repressed ambition. Just like you, Mr. Adama. Never seeking out a job until it's handed to you? Flight leader, Battlestar Commander, Quorum Delegate... A man doesn't carve out a path like that through life without... "
It's interesting to me that Lee doesn't elucidate that ambition but seemingly sidles into things.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 09:17 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 09:19 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 09:30 pm (UTC)As for the Quorum, I seem to recall an episode back in season 1 where someone informs Baltar that he had been chosen as the Caprican representative. He was kind of caught by surprise then, but I don't think he was nominated out of the blue. He was somehow chosen by the position. And yes, Roslin was serving the remainder of Adar's term, but she was next in line (after all the others died). And that was not the case with Lee.
You made a very convincing point regarding Zarec's intentions, though. Are you a lawyer (or a psychologist) by any chance? I'm always amazed by how you are able to figure out people's motives and explain the logic behind their behaviour. Kudos.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 10:04 pm (UTC)On the up side, though, it means I can continue ignoring Black Market. So there's always a silver lining.
I think Ron Moore made the choice to list Lee as a reservist pretty deliberately - he talks about it in the "Final Cut" commentary. He wanted to indicate that Lee did not intend to stay in the military for his career. He mentioned that this was an alteration to their original backstory for Lee, in which they'd toyed with the idea that he was planning to enter an advanced test pilot program, the kind of military position that would have allowed him to be an absolute loner. But as they got to know the character better (allegedly), they didn't think 'test pilot' fit him, and decided that instead he would have become a reservist and planned to make a living by opening a bar somewhere back home. This doesn't sound like Lee at all to me, although innibis built a beautiful AU story around that idea in her "Cinderella" fairy tale. I think the deleted scene in Razor about the test pilot program, and in Daybreak where Kara bets him that he'll never leave the service, were call-backs to previous ideas about the characters' backstory. But maybe part of the reason they got cut is that the writers realized they were confusing and were starting to contradict each other.
Though I enjoy trying out little theories to explain things better, at the end of the day what canon says is 1) he always planned to leave the military at some point, 2) he was a reservist by the time the war broke out, and 3) he was serving on Atlantia at the time, though 4) he was back on Caprica, presumably on leave, shortly before that. Even these little tidbits are hard to reconcile, but I guess joining the reserves was his equivalent of 'getting out of the military,' at least as a full-time thing. I don't know what he was doing out on Atlantia, though.
:) I'm totally sure that we have put more thought into this in the last hour than the BSG writing team did. C'est la vie.
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 10:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 10:23 pm (UTC)LOL. So true.
Well, we all have things in canon we choose to ignore.( I kind o like lots of things about Black Market, though)
In this particular case, I choose to ignore he was supposed to be in the reserves. It just makes things easier. Hee
no subject
Date: 2010-07-04 10:26 pm (UTC)Lee Adama's Campaign
Date: 2010-07-05 12:58 am (UTC)Enjoy! K
Re: Lee Adama's Campaign
Date: 2010-07-05 01:13 am (UTC):D
no subject
Date: 2010-07-05 02:30 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-07-05 02:33 am (UTC)Re: Lee Adama's Campaign
Date: 2010-07-05 02:38 am (UTC)Thank you! I love it!!
no subject
Date: 2010-07-05 02:54 am (UTC)Re: Lee Adama's Campaign
Date: 2010-07-05 03:05 am (UTC)Re: Lee Adama's Campaign
Date: 2010-07-05 03:05 am (UTC)