DPP: Starbuck and Apollo, Lee and Kara

[da-angel729.livejournal.com]

Hello again! I'm da_angel729 and I'm doing the DPP this week!

Today's post is something that's been swirling around in my brain for a while.

I've heard people say (and maybe even said it myself) that 'Starbuck' and 'Apollo' are almost persona that Lee and Kara adopt to help them through whatever crap they don't feel like doing. Especially in Kara's case. And that how they act when in that mode is somehow different than their normal personalities.

I don't necessarily think that is the case, and I'm not saying that they're have multiple personalities or anything. I guess what I'm trying to say is that they sometimes have moments that don't quite match up with what we've seen or come to expect from our characters. Kara especially comes across as widely different: there's been moments that I might classify as Kara rather than 'Starbuck'-moments where she's more vulnerable, perhaps, than one would expect a hotshot Viper pilot to be, though I hope it doesn't sound like I don't expect characters to be three-dimensional.

But it's interesting that for all of those moments, I don't think it ever really feels like a disconnect between who they are and what their 'persona' is, just another aspect of the character we see on screen.

So, some questions:

-What scenes or moments would you classify as wildly different for a character than what we've come to expect on-screen. In other words, what did Kara or Lee do or say that surprised you about them the first time on seeing it?
-Do you feel the callsigns allow our pilots to adopt different aspects of their personalities in a way that then seems distinct from their normal ones?
-And, how much of their 'persona' is just an extension of their personality, and how much of it is acting or faking it?
-To tie it back into pilots, do they seem more compatible when they're being (or showing typical behaviour of) Starbuck and Apollo or Lee and Kara? Lee and Starbuck? Kara and Apollo?

Comments

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

These are really great questions, and I've so enjoyed the thoughtful earlier responses ~ sorry to be coming late to this party!

I agree with those above who have said that Kara and Lee use their personas to shut down their emotions and vulnerabilities in order to do their jobs confidently, and I think Kara likes to live inside Starbuck more than Lee depends on Apollo.

With Lee, you can see him visibly shifting into Apollo mode when he has to, and it's sometimes a bumpy transition - the classic example is his two seconds of being scared before settling into command of the Pegasus in "Captain's Hand." But Lee doesn't always successfully make that shift into Apollo-mode, even in times of battle and crisis. When I watch him talking to himself in "Hand of God," or inspiring his recruits while struggling with his own confusion and fear in "Valley of Darkness," I see a lot of Lee coming through, not just Apollo.

This strikes me as very much in character - I think Lee has always regarded 'Apollo' as a bit of a burden, a mask he wears for the sake of others perhaps more than for his own satisfaction. I think it's interesting how dismissive he is when people try to apply that persona to his personality rather than just his job. When Zarek tries to analyze Lee's personality in terms of healing vs. war-making, Lee insists that he's not actually Apollo-like, it's "just a stupid nickname." He looks wry and a bit defeated when Roslin insists on regarding him as "Captain Apollo" as she shares the secret of her cancer with him. I love the expression on his face in the last shot of Bastille Day, it's so unexpectedly uncomfortable. Even as late as "Sometimes A Great Notion," when Dee calls him 'Apollo' and says that he is the only one who can give people a reason to go on after the disaster of Earth, he looks at her with such surprised vulnerability, as if he's thinking "you of all people should know that I'm not that perfect, I'm not the one with the answers." And it's clear that she knows that, of course - she no longer believes in 'Apollo,' she doesn't believe that Lee or anyone can make things right or give her a reason to go on, as she makes abundantly clear soon after. But Lee nonetheless succeeds in being the inspiring leader in public, in speeches, before troops and the people who never look close enough to see his own doubts and frailties.

I think the moments when Lee comes across as OOC and a bit scary are those few moments when he completely immerses himself in his military persona and has clearly shut down the part of himself that questions, doubts, and feels. I think "Razor" is the epitome of this phenomenon, but I also see it at times after his space-walk in Resurrection Ship, and in his ruthless advocacy for genocide in "A Measure of Salvation." Apollo without Lee is frankly scary, and I'm glad most of the time the two are pretty thoroughly mixed.

With Kara, you can see her remaining 'Starbuck' in a lot of her personal interactions with others - she's Starbuck at the card table, not just in the cockpit. I think she's initially Starbuck in most of her romantic relationships, though she can rarely stay that confident and in control for long. I think she loves Starbuck in a way she can't love herself; her underlying self-esteem issues are a big part of the reason she relies on her persona so much more than Lee does. And I agree that Starbuck and Apollo get along great, and that Lee and Kara are perfect for each other though they're both too scared to fully trust their relationship.

But I actually think that Apollo/Kara and Lee/Starbuck combinations are total disasters. When one of them is being vulnerable and the other is not, it's always rotten. I see Apollo/Kara in KLG Part I, from the "would you miss me?" through the rejected apology. It's horrible. And I see Starbuck/Lee in their near-encounter during Scar, which was equally hurtful and disasterous. The only comfort is that Lee knew the difference between Kara and Starbuck, which is why he stopped making out with Starbuck and tried to figure out where the heck Kara was in all this.

Anyhow, that's my take on them, and thanks for the interesting topic!

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

I'm not in a very analytical mode today, so I guess I'll limit myself to either agreeing or disagreeing with people. It is usually very difficult to disagree with you as you always make such solid arguments. I really wish I had your brain and your way with words.

Anyway, I really agree with today. In a post above, I agreed with Anonymous regarding OOC Lee but when it comes to Apollo, I absolutely loved this "when he completely immerses himself in his military persona and has clearly shut down the part of himself that questions, doubts, and feels." It made me think of a WIP fic that has been recently updated on ffnet (Everything that was, will be again by Igore). The Lee there is downright scary.

[rachelindeed.livejournal.com]

I love that fic! And yes, Lee is very scary and yet still recognizable there, which is part of the reason it impresses me. :)

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Oh, I love it, too. It has very dark overtones and you are right Lee is still recognizable. I just wish the author would update more often. The last chapter ended with such a terrible cliffhanger.