DPP: Fathers and Children

[da-angel729.livejournal.com]

Hello everyone! I'm da_angel729 and I'm doing the DPP this week!

And I was originally going to do something different (I'll use it later this week instead), but in honor of Father's day (which was yesterday here in the US), and this article (linked below) that hit io9 this weekend, I thought it would be an interesting discussion topic because they mention Bill Adama as one of SciFi's best fathers.

Best and Worst Fathers From SciFi

For those of you who don't want to read the whole article, here's what they say about Bill:

WILLIAM ADAMA
Battlestar Galactica
To be fair, much of the reason why Lee and Bill Adama had such a strained relationship is because Lee was a self-important dick. But over the course of the series, Adama the Elder proved his worth, to both his son and his fleet, time and time again.

I don't (completely) agree with the comment about Lee but I nearly choked on my drink when I saw Adama listed as one of the best fathers because I find Bill to be an absolutely terrible father (though I know some of you don't, and I'd love some discussion on that as well). He treats Lee (especially in UB when he tells Lee Kara and Sam got married) and Kara (who he calls surrogate daughter but only when she doesn't have occurrences of PTSD) horribly if they're not playing at being perfect little soldiers, and as a military commander, being too close to your crew (which he is), is a terrible idea because it leads to favoritism and then feelings of personal betrayal when they don't agree with you.

But the article got me thinking. What was Kara's father like? How did he treat her, and why did he leave? What was Adama like when he was younger and his children were younger? How did the way Lee and Kara's fathers treat them impact who they are today? And do you think Adama is a good father?

A lot of this will be speculation and opinion (especially about Kara's father), but please do talk about personal canons and things if you have one.

Comments

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

Wow, because not wanting to live up to the example of your emotionally distant father and reacting with irrational blame in the midst of the grief of losing your brother makes you a self-important dick. WTF.

I disagree with a lot of the bashing on Adama that goes on around here. Yeah, there are some times when he borders on being cruel to Kara, but he does it when he doesn't know what else to do. And on more than one occasion, the tough love appears to be the only thing that would work on Kara. If everybody threw her a pity party in "Torn," she would just fall farther into having no motivation for anything. It really sucks that she can't really get a break after going through something pretty traumatic, but if everybody stopped for a breather after New Caprica they all would have fallen off their guard and likely gotten killed. Adama very dickishly exploits his familial relationship with her to get her off her ass and back in the game, and it makes me want to punch him in the face, but I don't know what else he could have done (especially when *cough* another very important influence in her life has her on worse than a silent treatment and isn't going to be any help). No, he is not father of the year (and I can't say I agree with him being included on the list), but he did the best he could in balancing the fact that he loved Kara and Lee as family with the fact that they were his officers.

The only thing I'm really sure about when it comes to Kara's father is that even though he obviously really hurt her, I think he was a positive force when he was around. I think she probably inherited an enthusiasm and sense of humor from him that I can't really imagine her getting from her mother.

[(Anonymous)]

io9 have a thing about Lee, they bash him anytime they get the chance and that for some reason extends to Jamie to. I sometimes think Jamie must have angered them somehow otherwise why go out of your way to insult him all the time?
Anyway I therefore can't take anything they say seriously anymore.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

Despite the awfulness of it, I agree with your thoughts about Bill's reaction to Kara in Torn. I wish he hadn't called her a cancer, (that was pushing it too far) but overall I thought she was pretty out of control (and I understand why). I'm not sure that the hugging and comforting approach would have helped. I can see her rejecting it because she might not be able to find strength there. Adama's harshness gives her something strong and defining to bump up against. I do wish they'd had more joining moments after that, however. She just kind of went back to work.

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

I definitely wish we'd had some good moments between them in that season to balance out the harshness. Because of how they are with each other in "Maelstrom," I pretty much assume they got back on the right track at some point, but I would have liked to see that reconciliation happen. And same with S4; he kind of throws Kara back into duty like "Hey, I guess we trust her now" after the Demetrius gets back, as far I remember it going.

[da-angel729.livejournal.com]

I think the reason I react so strongly to the Kara and Bill scene in Torn is because I have PTSD and if someone said that to me it would be the worst possible thing ever. I don't react well to direct confrontation or name calling (even if I think it might be true).

But I'm not that similar to Kara, so maybe she did need it that harsh. It just seems a little too harsh, I think.

But then he tells Tigh that he can have as long as it takes. Why didn't he call Tigh a cancer? That's another thing I hate about that scene.

[ninety6tears.livejournal.com]

That's a good point about Tigh. I presume he just expects Tigh to be able to get himself back into it after some grieving and doesn't feel he can expect the same from Kara. One of the really troubling things about "Torn" and some of the other things that happen after the occupation is that it's hard to tell whether people are sort of trivializing everything Kara went through (and Tigh losing his eye and his wife and everything might seem worse, but you can't really compare or quantify psychological damage like that) or if they just don't know the whole story.

[da-angel729.livejournal.com]

I think it's entirely possible that not that many people know what Kara went through. And it's obvious what Tigh went through, because of the eye and the fact that Ellen's not there anymore.

[ecstaticdance.livejournal.com]

I think Bill hit both Kara and Tigh where it hurt them most.

Tigh worries so much about letting Bill down (See the beginning of S2), and Kara has this insane belief that she destroys everything she touches. Both of them were living that out in Torn, and Bill told them as much. Tigh would have scoffed if Bill had called him a cancer, or agreed and not cared, but saying he wasn't needed shocked him out of the funk he was in, because it was what he feared most. Kara... I'm not convinced calling her a cancer was the most helpful thing in the world, but it definitely hit her harder than anything else he could have said, in a "I see this, but you don't get to go off and feel sorry for yourself" kind of way. Because Kara wouldn't have been destroyed by thinking she was unneeded the way Tigh was.

It's not a good reason, and is barely a thread-bare excuse, but I see where it came from, and I get why he didn't use the same tactic with Saul.

[scifishipper.livejournal.com]

To be fair, much of the reason why Lee and Bill Adama had such a strained relationship is because Lee was a self-important dick. But over the course of the series, Adama the Elder proved his worth, to both his son and his fleet, time and time again.

So the father is absolved of all responsibility when the son acts like a dick? That's half of the problem. Adama didn't really take responsibility for his own parenting mistakes, he just got angry and rejected Lee more and more over time.

It's so fascinating to read how other people perceive Lee and Adama's relationship (not here, but around LJ and beyond). People seem to take sides, I'm not sure that I totally take sides, but I tend to point the finger back to the parents when a child grows up with significant issues. Yes, there are often other influences, Lee's mom, of course, but once Lee and Adama are back together, their dynamic plays out over and over again. Lee wants is father's approval and hates himself for wanting it. Bill expects perfect loyalty and it makes him furious when Lee disobeys. Is that being a dick? To defy your father because your relationship is built on distrust and resentment? I can't really stand behind that. I never got the sense that Lee intentionally hurt his father. Maybe when he gave up his wings - I don't know. I did get the sense that Lee and Adama loved each other and gave a grudging respect. One of my favorite scenes is in the mini when Adama hugs Lee. That is such an amazing and powerful moment. There is such forgiveness and love in that embrace.

I also love that the two men came together in the end. Lee became his own man and Adama learned to respect him for it. I actually find their relationship to be one of the most realistic and complex in the entire show.

*huggles them together* :D

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I loved that ending too. (And you said it so much better than I did.)

*adds you to the Lee / Bill huggle*

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

"I actually find their relationship to be one of the most realistic and complex in the entire show."

Me too. And I also loved how they seemed to have finally reached a point where they were able to love and respect each other leaving the old hurt feelings behind them. However, I couldn't help feeling Bill was abandoning Lee all over again when he decided to simply go away with Laura in the end.

[utenatai.livejournal.com]

Gods, this this this this THIS. I think I might even hate that more than the poof! They spend the entire goddamn show repairing that relationship and then the whole feels totally undone when Bill flies off and Lee makes that comment about this being the abandoning of all abadonings.

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Well, I certainly think Bill Adama was a very interesting, strong character in BSG and his role as a father is part of that.
Because of that if I had to make a list of important outstanding father figures in the scifi universe, I wouldn't leave him out. But I wouldn't exactly list on a list of the BEST fathers. I think he was a good, honorable man, and I really believe he loved his children. But love alone is not enough.

The way I imagine it he was seldom around, especially after the divorce, and he left the raising of the kids completely on his ex-wife's hands. I feel it is particularly shocking that he had no clue as to what happened to his family after the divorce, or his ex-wife problems and, therefore, his kids problems. To make things ever worse, the only time Lee tried to talk to him about it, he refused to listen. And the whole thing shouldn't really have come as such a surprise if we are to believe what Lee said then (something like "You knew what she was like, it was part of the reason you divorced her.").As a result of all this, he didn't really know his kids.

I also imagine he would probably be very demanding and strict whenever he was around, probably believing it was his duty as a father and, since he was never around to begin with and he wanted them to the best they could be, he had to make most of the little time he had with them, playing the disciplinarian and passing judgement on everything. He probably believe most of it was constructive criticism, but the children might see it as just criticism. Especially Lee, because, as the oldest, his father would demand more of him.

I believe he was more of a father to Kara than to Lee (or Zac). First, they didn't share any past history filled with frustration and resentment. Second, they met when both of them were feeling devasted after Zac's death, alone in their grief (she because she didn't have any family left and she had all the guilt regarding her part in his death and her feelings for his brother and she couldn't open up to anybody about it; he, because he had become so distant from his remaining family). They both desperately needed someone to support them. Third, he saw himself in her. He got to admire and respect her. In fact, he got to know her in a way he never knew Lee before the attacks. He was more of a father to his crew than his children, anyway, and even more so to her as she not only became part of his crew, but also was the only one he could shared his grief and Zac's memory with.

Yes, there were times he was particularly harsh on her. But those were pretty rare, I think. And, because he knew her pretty well by then, perhaps that was what she needed at the time.

As for Kara's own father, I guess she missed him a lot and he could have made her childhood more bearable should he have been present. As it is, he contributed to creating her emotional isolation and Bill Adama became a sort of surrogate parent for her.

[kag523.livejournal.com]

I believe he was more of a father to Kara than to Lee (or Zac). First, they didn't share any past history filled with frustration and resentment. Second, they met when both of them were feeling devasted after Zac's death, alone in their grief (she because she didn't have any family left and she had all the guilt regarding her part in his death and her feelings for his brother and she couldn't open up to anybody about it; he, because he had become so distant from his remaining family). They both desperately needed someone to support them. Third, he saw himself in her
That is absolutely BRILLIANT damao! I love that idea. And I'd never really thought of it in that light before! So good! (And by rights, so sad.)

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

Thanks. ;)

[zenzero42.livejournal.com]

I believe he was more of a father to Kara than to Lee (or Zac). First, they didn't share any past history filled with frustration and resentment. Second, they met when both of them were feeling devasted after Zac's death, alone in their grief (she because she didn't have any family left and she had all the guilt regarding her part in his death and her feelings for his brother and she couldn't open up to anybody about it; he, because he had become so distant from his remaining family). They both desperately needed someone to support them. Third, he saw himself in her. He got to admire and respect her. In fact, he got to know her in a way he never knew Lee before the attacks. He was more of a father to his crew than his children, anyway, and even more so to her as she not only became part of his crew, but also was the only one he could shared his grief and Zac's memory with.
I totally agree with this, Kara and Adama were two kindred spirit, as she wrote in the birthday card "can you see the resemblance?" and of course he can, he really was her father in everything but blood. maybe not a perfect one but he was there and he loved her with no limit.

[utenatai.livejournal.com]

I really agree with you that Adama is a pretty bad father- doesn't he even say that himself? I mean, I adore Bill regardless and he makes a great father figure for the show, but he's definitely channeling Zeus in the parenting department.


I imagine Kara's father as an absent artist; pretty loving when he could bother to be around but not willing to sacrifice his own pursuits to devote himself to actually raising a child.

[workerbee73.livejournal.com]

WHOA. Adama as a good dad?

SERIOUSLY?

Wow. I can't really get past that. Just how... why... wha....

Did these people even WATCH season 4????

[kag523.livejournal.com]

The writing of Bill Adama's character is one of those things that occasionally would frustrate me with the show. Most of the time, yes, I really did like his characterization. But every once in a while he'd pull a 180 and this really nasty character )(the ramblings of a frustrated writer? would suddenly emerge. It always left me feeling totally off kilter, as it seemed completely OOC. Like Bob from Twin Peaks had suddenly popped into Bill's body for a moment, attacking those around him.

Case in point: "You're a cancer."

I don't care if the character is dealing with the worlds ending, a screwed up family life and millions of cylons chasing him down. That's just over the top, gratuitous "angst-writing" for no other reason than racking up the ratings. Out of character is still out of character.

*steps down off soapbox*

[damao2010.livejournal.com]

That's funny. I never thought of it as really out of character. If anything, I think Bill Adama's character was one of the most consistent throughou the series.

He was a great leader but he did have one hell of a temper at times. And he was angry, proud and stubborn as he once described both himself and his son. He was prone to angry explosions when he did lash out at others at those times. You have the "you are a cancer" moment. But also his decision to arrest the president after Kara went back to Caprica and the fact he took Lee to the CIC , in cuffs (I can only imagine what he would have said then if Boomer hadn't chosen that moment to shoot him). To me, the worst one was during Baltar's trial, when he accused Lee of being a liar, a coward and having no integrity.

OOC versus IC

[kag523.livejournal.com]

That's so interesting that you would consider these outbursts to be the grounding "in character" moments of Bill Adama, and I would consider those exact same ones to be his OOC moments. Hmm... perhaps I'm just overly blinded by his positive qualities? Or perhaps watching the entire series in three weeks gave me a different perspective than everyone else. Weird.

I don't know... but I'd better figure this out before Book 2 goes much further than sketches. Feel like giving me some more insight on this damao? Seriously. I'd like to get your take on his character before I get any chapters that include him more than roughed out. (PM me if you do.)

[da-angel729.livejournal.com]

I firmly believe the only reason that Lee is taken to the CIC in Kobol's Last Gleaming (instead of the brig like Laura) in handcuffs is because he's Bill's son and Bill's furious with him.

I just find their relationship frustrating because there really is a reason wives/husbands or other familial relationships don't normally serve in the same military unit. It's just too difficult to be both parent and commander. I think both Lee and Bill struggle with that distinction sometimes, but it's more obvious in Bill when Lee disagrees with him.

[zenzero42.livejournal.com]

Adama wasn't a perfect father, this is sure. But he loved Kara, Lee and Zak beyond measure. This is also sure in my opinion.

I also think he was closer to Kara than Lee, because he understood Kara more than Lee, she was very similar to him in a lot of aspects. While Lee was a very different kind of man (another prove that Dee doesn't know anything about Lee btw).

Adama risked all the fleet to save Kara just a few moments after she told him she was in part responsible fort the death of his son. if this isn't a demonstration of "love no matter what" I dont' know what it is...

It's true that he was mean to her sometime but that doesn't means that he didn't love her. Come on, Kara was mean to Lee (and so Lee to Kara) so many times but no one of us think that they didn't love each others. Sometime I think that one of the reason for all the Adama hate is that in general is more difficult to accept the imperfection of our parents, it's very painfull to grow up and understand that they are just people like us with flows and imperfection.

Of course I hated him in Torn for telling her that she was a cancer but I really belive that he wanted just to shake her. And I'm also sure that they had their moment of reconciliation. The proud way in which Adama looks at Kara during the dance, when she is in the ring with Hotdog for me is enough to prove it.

I'm always very protective with Kara, and I just want her to be loved: Adama gave Kara a home when she needed it most, he gave her stability when everything was falling apart. His father left her when she was a kid, her mother was violent. Adama was there for her and I can't help but love him for all of this.

[cosetteferaud.livejournal.com]

Very interesting discussion. I don't have anything insightful to add but... dude, Adama a good father and Lee a "self-important dick?" Seriously??? Frankly, this pisses me off. I have the feeling that Lee is such a misunderstood character... **feels protective of him**

[kag523.livejournal.com]

Adama a good father and Lee a "self-important dick?" Seriously??? Frankly, this pisses me off. ... Yeah, me too. But I think we may be in the minority here, Cosette.

[rdave1.livejournal.com]

Very interesting topic!! I don't have anything new to add that hasn't been said above but I find it interesting Bill failing at being a good father is because of Lee being a "self-important dick". I would think that Lee might be that way because of Bill lack of parenting skills.

Poor Lee! *hugs Lee*